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|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Elsa article.|
Ander's rudeness Edit
Not even knowing the circumstances of Elsa's coming to be tranquil, the genocidal Anders makes another rude and untoward remark. Is it even true? It rings maniacal and false. We get it Anders you want all Templars killed and all Tranquils killed even those who come to it willingly as did Owain. You don't care whom you kill as long as you get what you want -- an insane war based on your own blind, unreasoning rage. You have no solutions to the greater problem of mages turning to blood magic or demons because they seek power for themselves or for their own selfish ends. Now go back to the fade Justice where you should have stayed as you never understood the mortal world.--Diosprometheus (talk) 04:16, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for that bias display of Anders hate for no reason at all. In case you were after a reason for Anders reaction to Elsa instead of just using it to say how horrible he is, let me explain:
1) Anders is in the middle of the Gallows, surrounded by templars. Of course he is going to be edgy, angry and stressed, considering he is an apostate right in the heart of a templar base.
2) He is following someone who is willingly, or being forced, to work for Meredith. Not only is that, but the job Meredith wants to hunt down mages that may be possibly innocent (no it does not work out like that).
3) He is talking to a tranquil used as an assistant, so he is going to be pissed off about that. He remark was about Meredith's use of Elsa as a symbol of oppression, rather then Elsa herself. Even when Elsa responded that she is efficient, Anders would be insulted that Meredith hates mages and magic, but is happy to used Elsa as a slave for her benefit.
4) Im certain that fact that Anders is acknowledging her as a person is a good sight better then others who would ignore her or treat her as a piece of furniture.
5)Elsa is a tranquil! She is incapable of feeling insulted or angry. She does not need defending. She simply does not care what Anders says. Maybe you should learn from that. --Ironreaper (talk) 07:13, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
Here are reasons and lessons to learn. Anders has become an abomination. Anders projects his own prejudices onto others. He does this repeatedly in the game. He insults almost all of your companions at some point. He makes baseless accusations repeatedly. These are not only against Meredith and the Grand Cleric. In the short story about his joining with Justice, he admits that “They will all die. Every Templar, every holy sister who stands in the way of our freedom ….” He has killed Wardens. He wants all their deaths to be the fuel of his Vengeance. He has no greater plan than to start a terrible war and doesn't care who dies in it, be it innocent mages or well-intentioned templars. He is willing to kill the good templars as well as the bad. It makes no difference to him. He defends blood mages who don't care about his cause but seek power for themselves, even though he speaks out against the evils of blood magic. He is the “unthinking hatred of Vengeance” and Vengeance is not justice. He is not the annoying Anders of Awakenings, who objects at the statute of Andraste when talking to Wynn about the freedom of mages if your mage warden says Mages deserve their freedom. Would Wynn, who was also possessed by a spirit and was fearful that she would herself become an abomination but loved her life at the circle, for it was her home, want to join Anders in his insane war against Templars? Anders has no greater plan than to start his war. He has no plan on how to protect Mages, such as the tragic Merrril, from the corrupting influence of demons. When Anders kills his friend Karl he reveals his murderous opinion of tranquils, better for them to be dead than to live the lives they do. Tranquils don't feel, but their minds are very ordered and lives are content. Don't make excuses for Anders. He is the true monster of the game. He is unreasoning hate and no evidence you show him will change what he is. Meredith is a red herring who has her own personal reasons to fear magic and is driven insane by the corrupted idol, but she shows a greater understanding of the dangers of magic and to mages than Anders ever will or does.--Diosprometheus (talk) 13:00, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
He kills Karl? You mean the man who not seconds before was asking to be killed. Who, depending on your choices, was Anders lover? You simplifing Anders to be a sociopath by ignoring all evedince against your opinion. I would continue this conversation but it is not something we should be placing on a character's talk page. If you truely wish to have a mature debate regarding Ander's actions, please start a forum of your own and i will join.
PS so you do not pass me off as a mere Ander's lover who is ignoring his poor qualities, i do disagree with his terrorism. I simply do not wish to have a character simplified inacuratly.--Ironreaper (talk) 15:14, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
He does more than just kill Karl. He makes a statement about what needs to be done. His tranquil solution is not much different from Sir Alrik's tranquil solution, except Anders would kill tranquils instead of turning Mages into them. Anders projects his own thoughts onto others here when he makes baseless accusations against the Grand Cleric and Meredith. He makes baseless accusations through out the game and he lies to Hawke (a form of sociopathic manipulation) about his so-called cure from the corruption of Justice. He is really getting ingredients to make a bomb. (Meredith herself is corrupted in the end by the magic of pure lyrium and becomes that which she fears.) Anders does harbor sociopathic tendencies which he displays and it is evident in the game. For your information, my first playthrough my Hawke was his lover, and I was sympathetic to his cause, but, as I continued to play the game I began to see it has a deeper and more mature plot line than just what is on the surface. There is much more going on in Kirkwall than Anders will ever fathom or can explain. It is even possible that Kirkwall, built on the blood of innocent slaves who provided their blood for blood mages, has corrupted Anders and Justice, although the short story would contradict that. Anders seems to have simplified the Mages plight without any true understanding. I have enjoyed this thought-provoking exchange with you. The story is better than the game. --Diosprometheus (talk) 18:02, May 18, 2011 (UTC)