Forum:Why the HELL are women allowed to fight darkspawn?

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionWhy the HELL are women allowed to fight darkspawn?

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So there i was re-playing Awakening, meeting Sigrun after she was getting dragged by darkspawn, and thats when it finally hits me. Why in THE WORLD do orzammar lets women fight in their army against the darkspawn, or even worse, join the Legion of the Dead??? Heres the thing. We know just what happens when the darkspawn get their hands on a woman, they turn them into Broodmothers. The way i see it, no matter how good a woman might be as fighter its just not worth the damn risk to send them right into the lions den, one mistake and then BOOOOM she will give birth to thousands of darkspawn, essentially replacing any darkspawn she might have killed as a solider and then more, a LOT more. Hell, Sigrun, who is a grade-A badass herself, only escaped her predicament because she was lucky the warden-commander was passing by at the moment.

That also goes to the surface races during the time of blights, i mean, i can see the writers hand-waving the whole problem when it comes to female Grey Wardens by the means of "Those who are wardens cant become broodmothers" or something like that (and personaly i would be okay with such explanation) but what about all the others non-GW female soldiers? Sending non-GW women towards the darkspawn instead of far away from them is just downright fucking stupid no matter how i see it. Its like asking to be outnumbered.

Plot hole, oversight, or is my reasoning wrong? Discuss... --Galvao18 (talk)

---

I've read somewhere that the writers hadn't considered it. Only in a intervieuw with some female fans was it that David Gaider realised that female grey wardens going to their Calling was a bad idea. I believe that it was said that it was unkown how Broodmothers came into existance. Your warden was the first to witness the process. Gaider also said that it was something he could use in future entries to the series. Don't quote me on this though, I read that article/interview a long time ago. I'll go and search for it. Details have no doubt escaped me. --M. Shields (talk) 17:58, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

The broodmother codex states the wardens already know about the broodmothers though, thats the problem --Galvao18 (talk)

Found it! Live Journal interview Acording to this interview the Grey Wardens are aware that broodmothers exist, but don't know their origin. --M. Shields (talk) 18:14, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

So, they oficially retconned the codex entry? (Link is not working for me, i'm just taking your word for it) --Galvao18 (talk)

IIRC, Wardens knew about broodmothers, but didn't know how they were made. To them, broodmothers were born darkspawn. They didn't know they were corrupted normal females.--Damx (talk) 19:43, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed the link. Just read the codex. It says how "Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer" to why darkspawn drag people underground. You could be the Grey Wardens the codex speaks about. So it doesn't really have to be retconned. I understand the confussion though. --M. Shields (talk) 18:25, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Two things. The first is that Alistair says there hadn't been female Wardens for about twenty years or so, and that he doesn't know why that is. Could it be that Duncan knew (or at least suspected) where Broodmothers come from, and avoided recruiting women except in the most desperate of circumstances? The second is that the Calling wouldn't usually be an issue, as the average Warden is recruited well over the age of twenty, and doesn't receive her Calling for another twenty to thirty years. Thus, the average female Warden would be menopausal (or nearly so) by the time she is called. Also, what's to stop the Darkspawn from simply snatching random unarmed women and turning them? A well-trained, well-armed female soldier would be in a better position to escape the Darkspawn than some farmer's wife. IIRC, here's nothing that says Orzammar knows anything about the Broodmother's origins. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Sigrun knew about it until after she meets the Warden. (LigerNull (talk) 01:36, October 18, 2014 (UTC))

Well, the wardens are a secretive bunch, not surprised that they wouldn't tell the whole world about how broodmother's are made. That being said, I don't think the writers wanted to have women stereotyped and "unable" to fight, which is what could have happened had they chosen to really hammer the whole broodmother thing in to the players mind. The way I see it is, women are allowed into the legion of the dead because they know about broodmothers too, and they tell the women that should they be captured they should bash their heads against the wall until the die. Topsider's who aren't grey wardens are just ignorant of the fact, and the wardens don't tell them because they know it will insight fear amongst the female soldiers, which will then weaken the strength of the army and almost definitely result in more broodmothers. The wardens pretty much take a chance, and hope for the best. 18:23, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

• And as for the dwarves, they don't have the numbers to turn down anyone ready and willing to defend their borders. Which is why the casteless thing is so stupid. Luper567 (talk)

>"Well, the wardens are a secretive bunch, not surprised that they wouldn't tell the whole world about how broodmother's are made"

I am, i know the warden are secretive but there is nothing to gain by not telling the world about this, quite the opposite, they are just making their enemy stronger.

> they tell the women that should they be captured they should bash their heads against the wall until the die.

People chicken out before comiting suicide all the time, Sigrun certainly didnt kill herself, Personally if i were a dwarven king this isnt a risk i'd be willing to take.

> the wardens don't tell them because they know it will insight fear amongst the female soldiers, which will then weaken the strength of the army and almost definitely result in more broodmothers.

How about not have female soldiers there to begin with? As i said before, no matter how good they are as a soldier if they get captured they will replace all darkspawns they might have killed and more, a LOT more. --Galvao18 (talk)

I get what you're saying, but having the wardens tell the entire world would bring about chaos everytime darkspawn appear. Strong female warriors would leave men behind to die just so they don't have to face that fate. The abandoned men would be demoralized because they alone are left to fight against monstrous darkspawn. What would you do in that position? Run? Fight and kill as many darkspawn as you could even though you are pretty much guaranteed a gruesome death? The wardens may be making their enemy stronger by keeping this information to themselves, but the alternative is to weaken their own force by choosing not to have women fight by their side. When it comes to a blight, they need all the strength they can get, the archdemon has to be killed at all costs, otherwise there is nothing stopping the darkspawn from taking women and making them broodmothers, further strengthening their army.

Sigrun didn't need to kill herself at that moment, there was still hope, she struggled to escape her captors, the wardens intervention saved her. When I say they should commit suicide however they can, I mean they should do that only when they are in a position like Felsi, being forced to consume the corruption. That is when they should do it, because that is when the alternative will be seen clearly. That is when there is no hope.

Thats a big if you mention there, these are female soldiers with weapons, the darkspawn would have to disarm them and not mortally wound them to be able to drag them off. This is something I don't expect darkspawn capable of doing outside of an archdemon's influence. The darkspawn are better off just dragging helpless damsels down into the deep roads outside of a blight. Besides, I can't remember seeing a codex entry that talked about darkspawn bolstering their numbers deliberately outside of a blight, I mean its not like they deliberately go off and find women to transform. They spend most of their time digging for an old god so they can begin a new blight. 20:23, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

At that time they might not be able to kill themselves and it actually rather easy not to have women in your army; it is not as if they do not choose who are going to fight the darkspawn (and the men should therefore not be so demoralized, not more than usual anyway). And if all fails you might as well put your female soldiers as a last line of defense against the darkspawn protecting your cities (if the females are captured then it does not matter as everyone else is). Caspoi (talk) 20:33, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the army selection should be different if non-GW's have that knowledge. I should have specified that it was about wandering groups of soldiers encountering darkspawn. That situation would be demoralizing. And yes, there is the possibility that they can't kill themselves should they be captured but that's an unfortunate uncertainty on the matter. The only character we've seen going through the process is Felsi, and she lost the plot, for various reasons. But you can't deny, in the event of a blight, it would be better to have a few hundred extra soldiers (experienced soldiers not just canon fodder) than to not have them, even if the fight results in more darkspawn being made. In my opinion it's a safer risk to take given the enormity of the threat, those female soldiers may be killed in action, they may be captured, they may be the deciding factor in the battle. But without them the odds are stacked even more in favor of the blight. That same logic can be applied to the deep roads, without the female dwarves more ground could be lost. Against the darkspawn, everything you can throw them is useful, even if it ends up reinforcing the enemy numbers. I expect things are different now, since other people have mentioned the codex entry says GW don't know where broodmothers come from. And if you think about it, it makes it very interesting for the future, like the possibility of a double blight... 21:05, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

>"But you can't deny, in the event of a blight, it would be better to have a few hundred extra soldiers (experienced soldiers not just canon fodder) than to not have them"

But heres the thing, a single broodmother can give birth to " thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime". Id rather have 1000 soldiers fighting 3000 darkspawns than have 1500 soldiers fighting 300000

> "Against the darkspawn, everything you can throw them is useful, even if it ends up reinforcing the enemy numbers"

Da fuck am i reading? No seriously, what kind of logic is that? No offense but you cant possibly believe this is a smart thing to do. --Galvao18 (talk)

See that's the thing, 1500 against 3000 at that point in time is better than 1000 against 3000 at that point in time. Broodmothers aren't made instantly, it takes time. So bolstering the numbers for the present and forgetting about the future is a good idea, because if they lose, there won't be a future anyway. Why? Because there will be nothing stopping the darkspawn from changing every remaining woman into a broodmother and in turn spawning billions more darkspawn.

That is called "All hope is lost" logic. That is what the darkspawn symbolize, that is what people think when a blight occurs. It's only when the wardens appear that they think otherwise. And yes, I do believe that is a good idea, what else are you going to do? Abandon your home and run with your tail between your legs? Fight and die? Let your sister/mother/daughter/wife be transformed into a broodmother because you didn't want to let women fight beside you? Is it not better to die trying to defend everything you hold dear regardless of the consequence? 21:44, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

That is why I suggested that female soldiers guard the cities during a blight because if the city fall... we have moe pressing concerns than a few female soldiers being turned to broodmothers. Caspoi (talk) 22:06, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

>"See that's the thing, 1500 against 3000 at that point in time is better than 1000 against 3000 at that point in time. Broodmothers aren't made instantly, it takes time"

We know that the broodmother we met during the search for the Anvil was created in less than two years, we also know that blighs usually last for whole decades. Think about that one.

Also, You're implying that the women soldiers are essential, and without them, the man cant do shit. Man aint that weak, hell in the real-world we fought by ourselves for centuries just fine. Plus, if the Gender Equality Paradox is anything to go by, i doubt the females make up for more than 10% of the armies. So yeah, the smart thing to do is fighting with only 90% of the army than risk increasing the enemys army by 10000%--Galvao18 (talk)

I am not saying the women are essential, I am saying every battle against the darkspawn during a blight must be won, whatever the cost. Why? Because the alternative is to let them wreak havoc across any land where no one will stand against them, or where they have already beaten those who stand against them. And courtesy of the Anon: "Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish." Not all of the captured become broodmothers. Many die, like in the joining, think about that. So yes, regardless of your argument, I would still choose to make use of that 10%. Hmm, lets see, do we "Give 'em everything we've got?" or do we "Leave the women behind because we're afraid they'll get captured and become broodmothers because we think they can't defend themselves, and because of this we all die at the hands of the darkspawn because they outnumber us a hundred to one?" Blights may last 10 years, but think about the cost of lives lost for every Darkspawn victory. I'd rather have a few hundred women fighting beside a few thousand men just because the odds of victory are better. 22:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Heres the problem, i know that most of the captured women dies, but the few that lives give birth to thousands of darkspawn, we are not talking about a dozen here, but THOUSANDS, this is no laughting matter. If they manage to capture 100 fem soldiers during one siege and ten of them become BM, we will soon have in our hands TEN FREAKING THOUSAND darkspawn. I dont see how the odds are better here.--Galvao18 (talk)

"thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime" We aren't talking about 10000 darkspawn appearing immediately. We're talking about two-ish years of the Broodmother's being made, then over the course of what? 20-30 years plus, spawning thousands of darkspawn. Not to mention, these newborn darkspawn won't be fighting fit straight off. Even more time will pass before they are able to fight, by which time the blight is most likely nearing its end. The more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The more darkspawn victories = the more soldiers killed. The more women fighting = more broodmothers = more darkspawn a decade later. BUT The more women fighting = the more soldiers fighting in the field = the more darkspawn killed. The odds are better because one victory here prevents a definite loss there. Even if the darkspawn comeback tenfold, that is a problem to deal with THEN, not one for people to worry about when they face annihilation. It is mindless, yes, but in trying to prevent more darkspawn being born, it increases the risk of losing a battle and thus creating more darkspawn anyway. 23:00, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunatelly, we dont have enough data to support these assumptions, we dont know how long it takes a broodmother to replenish their number nor do we know how many darkspawn a regular female soldier kills during her career. I can see your point but since we cant calculate the risk/benefit i'm afraid our discussion just hit a wall --Galvao18 (talk)

"Broodmothers give birth to a large litter at once, between twenty and fifty children. They emerge from her womb as toddlers, often already able to walk, and grow rapidly in their first few weeks of life. A broodmother will birth thousands of darkspawn young in her lifetime." We know the average born in each litter of darkspawn, not the time of gestation. I would assume the average female soldier can kill the more or less the same amount of darkspawn as the average male soldier, depending on their training. Truth be told, this discussion is relatively pointless unless we focus on dwarves. That is because the origins character creator states that men and women are equally represented in the military forces of Ferelden. We don't know how the blights went in other countries, but we know that Ozammar pretty much has the same equality. SO... to answer your original question, they fight darkspawn because they want to, they are allowed because they want to, and because there is nothing to say they can't. Yet. That may change with the revelation of the broodmothers origins. 23:29, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, don't disregard what happens to the men, they are used as labour and then as food. So, captured men also contribute to the creation of a broodmother, as well as fortification for the darkspawn. Although what labour men do isn't specified. But less captured men means the darkspawn have to feed the women to the women, or go out and capture more men to use as food. 23:56, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

>"I would assume the average female soldier can kill the more or less the same amount of darkspawn as the average male soldier"

and how much is that?

>"equally represented in the military forces of Ferelden"

which doesnt make any sense whatsoever considering the Gender Equality Paradox, but i digress...

> "That may change with the revelation of the broodmothers origins."

At least we both agree on that. (assuming however that the general population dont already know about the BMs, in that case we are back to square one)

Also, please, slave labor happened in pretty much hundreds of civilizations, that cant be compared to become what is essentially becoming a baby factory for the enemy. I kind of see your point on the food argument though, but if the captured women werent there in the first place the man wouldnt be used as food (i realize this argument can be used in reverse as in "if the men werent there in the first place than they wouldnt be able to feed the women and turn them into BMs" but then we would fall into the 90% male soldiers vs 10% fem soldiers problem we talked about earlier) --Galvao18 (talk)

Did I compare slave labor to broodmothers? No, I didn't, I said don't disregard what happens to the men, they get dragged into the deep roads as well. The number of darkspawn an average soldier can kill would be based upon their training, I stated as much before, so if you're going to quote me in refuting me, at least read what I've written. The gender equality paradox doesn't have a place in this fantasy world, so disregard it. Thedas would be incredibly boring had women never been allowed to do anything of importance, and the dragon age series would be just another one of those cliche "men are superior just because". Women are equally represented because that is the will of the writers. And no, there is no evidence to say the general population has any knowledge whatsoever of the broodmothers, so we can steer clear of square one. Even if they did, women should still be given the choice to defend themselves and everything they hold dear, it may not make sense, but it fits given that the world we are discussing doesn't discriminate based on gender. 11:10, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Except this isn even about gender superiority or inferiority (on a social level). Its kind of like the Claymore manga, where only females can become half-yoma hybrids not because they are superior to man, but because their biological differences allow them to. Turning men into the hybrids would cause them to become insane and start killing everything. Thus, no one makes men into hybrids in that series. And thats all there is to it. Its the same thing here in DA, its not about "muh gender", its about cold calculated benefits.

But hey, at least i got you to admit this makes no sense, so thats already something :P--Galvao18 (talk) 18:52, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I am of a mind with Galvao18 here: a small edge in fighting the darkspawn threat isn't worth a lot when comparing to the fact that you therefore also create the next generation of darkspawn. And people will most likely flee when fighting darkspawn as small groups, in this case I want them to. Caspoi (talk) 21:26, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

THANK YOU --Galvao18 (talk)

I feel kind of bad proposing this, but why not "equip" all female soldiers with a poison? If things go wrong, they can simply "opt out". Darkspawn don't seem to take everyting away when they drag you under ground. Hespith was fully clothed. You could hide a vial, or some herbs in you clothes. It's what my female warden would do for her calling. Take a nice, slow working poison and take as much darkspawn with her before she.. "expires". --M. Shields (talk) 21:55, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

It is rather hard to equip 1/3 or so of an army with poisons, they might not take it (to me it sounds as if though the women would die even if the battle is won) and I can see other uses for that large a quantity of poison but for grey wardens on their calling it is actually quite a good idea. Caspoi (talk) 19:25, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

While I'm sure that there are people in Thedas who know of broodmothers, I'm sure Grey Wardens are pretty much the only ones who would know that women are turned into broodmothers (If they told people that, they'd suffer with recruitment). Female ghouls are likely taken deep into the deep roads where they'll be safer, so it would be difficult for anybody to see the transformation and tell others. Dialogue with Velanna shows that people (Or at least Dalish) aren't aware of the process. The other argument I'd give is that I think becoming a broodmother is a specific process that women have to be put through, otherwise Hespith would also of become one during the long period Branka's house were trapped, evidence for this can also be seen in The Calling book, where the Architect sped up the corruption process for Utha and Genevieve, instead of becoming broodmothers, they were more like general darkspawn. In regards to Gaider's comment about women Warden doing their calling being a bad idea, they go there to die in battle, darkspawn don't specifically spare women all the time and they'd probably rather just convert ghouls than try to capture Wardens, especially given that they are more likely to kill than capture without a Archdemon/other influences giving orders. Welshman15 (talk) 18:35, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Better to suffer from recruitment than make the enemys army ten times stronger --Galvao18 (talk)

This is a good point. Female mages are fine, since they can just turn into an abomination down there. The body gets too distorted to use and it becomes a killing machine. In fact, I think it was mentioned in Last Flight that many mages in the Wardens plan on becoming abominations during their calling. But once everyone knows where broodmothers come from, they probably would send fewer women in there. Did the dwarves know before Branka's expedition? I can't imagine that the dwarves would allow many women down there otherwise, particularly from surface races. In fact, I'd think they'd tell EVERYBODY where broodmothers come from to keep women away from the deep roads. IF they really didn't know about until the expedition, it's possible that this issue will come up from time to time in the future. I doubt that it will ever be a major plot point, but it would make the whole situation a bit more believable. Sevec 18:36, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I've got the interview piece here. It pretty much says the same thing:

"TUK: Do Grey Wardens still do the Calling, now that they know about Broodmothers? That was a really terrifying revelation in the first game "Oh my god, any women who are down here in the Deep Roads get taken off to spawn horrible monsters!"

DG: They always knew about Broodmothers, but they didn't know where Broodmothers came from. Knowing that...wow, I hadn't really considered whether they'd stop doing the Calling. I think if anything it makes it more problematic for female Wardens to do the Calling. That may be something we could incorporate into the future. It'd be an interesting question. Let's say a female Grey Warden starts to hear her Calling and says "Well, my time has come" and the rest of the Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition, as a way for the Grey Wardens to go out in a way where they retain...I don't know if you read The Calling, the novel. The reason they do the Calling is because there's a tipping point at which the corruption in them starts to affect them physically, so rather than become some kind of ghoul they want to die while they still have their humanity, doing what they've spent the majority of their life dedicated to, killing darkspawn, one last hurrah. To go to a woman and say "No, you can't have this honorable ending because of what might happen to you." I think that would be an interesting story. I think in the end it might be up to the individual Warden. I could definitely see a female Warden who would rather kill herself than allow for the possibility that she could be transformed into a Broodmother.

TUK: Yeah, lots of women nodding in this room...

DG: That might be something we could bring up in the future, for sure."

--M. Shields (talk) 18:48, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Wow. What a gaping hole in DA lore that is. Can't say I've ever cared for the whole Broodmother concept, for reasons I'd rather not get into, lest I be labeled a "social justice warrior." --Death by Cheese (talk) 18:52, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Did you not just label it youself? (it was a joke) Caspoi (talk) 19:27, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Well, damn it, the cat's out of the bag. Let me run back to tumblr and reblog several hundred gifs about how my fandom brings me nothing but pain and tears. ;) --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

>"Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition"

Goddamn, tumblr-sjw mentality at its best, this isnt about "deserving" something because of gender. This is about fucking calculated risk (More like calculated disaster, but i digress). Wardens should prepare their female recruits mentally about this from day one, instead of going "herp derp i'm gonna risk making my enemy even stronger than before because gender equality, teehee"

You know, it would be much easier for gaider to make female gray wardens immune to the broodmother process (as i first suggested) to begin with. This way, not only their calling, but even their recruitment would be justifiable. --Galvao18 (talk)

Exactly. If you're going to mess around with women's fertility and reproductive rights (woops, call the SJW police), just make it a non-issue by making the Joining a sort of sterilization process for women. Maybe it halts ovulation or kills eggs but not sperm, that way the Warden, Alistair or Loghain can still have their taintbaby. --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Am I the only one who saw the title of this forum and immediately assumed it would be made up of random sexist trolls? It's pretty rare for me to go into a forum and come out with MORE faith in humanity. 174.106.140.156 (talk) 20:40, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

No, you're not. I've been watching this with fear that it might descend into chaos, but so far its just been a pleasant, albeit saddening (because of making me notice the plothole), discussion. 20:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

I thought the same thing when I read the title. Anyways not every female becomes a Broodmother. It is a more extreme form of the process that makes normal ghouls and many don't even survive that so there would be even less survivors of a more extreme form of that. Plus it says so in the codex entry for Broodmothers, "Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish." If so many die then people would probably take a calculated risk that the women would most likely die from the process instead of actually becoming Broodmothers and in the meantime, they can kill as many darkspawn as possible.174.19.226.92 (talk) 22:10, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, this disussion reminds me of orzammar exiling the female dwarf noble to the deeproads, I dont think i have enough palms and faces for that one, lol --Galvao18 (talk)

Not sure this has been mentioned, as there is a lot of replies on this page already, but apparently female wardens can still become broodmothers. It's not a spoiler at all really but in Last Flight Isseya mentions that when it will be time for her Calling she plans to become an abomination in the Deep Roads to avoid being turned into a broodmother and kill as many darkspawn as she can. --Xsari ^(Talk) 00:17, October 16, 2014 (GMT)

Would that even work? I thought it was mentioned somewhere that demons avoid the taint. Wouldn't they then avoid 'appropriating' a Warden Mage? Shenachie (talk) 00:21, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

According to Last Flight yes, though that could be yet another plot hole. Again not really a spoiler but when Isseya touches the fade to use magic she still hears the whispers of demons trying to possess her. --Xsari ^(Talk) 01:34, October 16, 2014 (GMT)

Do the darkspawn even manage to turn every single woman they find into a broodmother? I mean, we only see a single broodmother in Origins; not to mention, the "Darkspawn Breeding Ground" in Awakening consisted of only four broodmothers. Shouldn't there be a hell of a lot more broodmothers in the deep roads regardless of the amount of women fighting the Darkspawn? If you ask me, maybe being turned into a broodmother is a lot like taking the Joining in itself, in that there is a high risk of death for going through with it. Maybe more so than the joining. Or maybe the broodmother process involves consuming so many resources (people) that the darkspawn can't create as many broodmothers as thought, so they resort to feeding women to women. Anyway, if Galvao is correct, then either the darkspawn aren't really good at their job, or the writers have some serious explaining/thinking/handwaving to do. Crimpycracker (talk) 23:45, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Do the dwarves even know how it's all done? Sure, we know, but we know a lot more than what the characters actually know in the game. It's possible that they aren't fully aware of how future darkspawn are made. We don't even figure it out until Hespith (or whatever her name was) told us how it was done, and that was only because she witnessed it (was a part of it). NutMeg29 (talk) 01:30, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I would hope that even if the Warden failed to inform The Powers That Be back in Orzammar of what he/she witnessed with Laryn(sp) and Hespith that the second time it occurred with the Legion of the Dead females in Awakening, it would have been reported. It's kind of convenient that the Legion of the Dead, save Sigrun, were wiped out by the Children. With only Sigrun remaining, is leadership in Orzammar going to believe what she says? Will they believe the Warden-Commander? There's so much distrust between races and organizations, even something as huge as a warning about the origin of Broodmothers may not be heeded or even believed. And of course there's always the possibility that the Warden-Commander doesn't report his/her findings. Disturbing. --Death by Cheese (talk) 03:11, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Broodmother Codex states "It is well-known that darkspawn carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. Most assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer. When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and eventually die. --Maverick One (talk) 05:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is born from a different broodmother: Humans produce hurlocks, dwarves produce genlocks, elves give birth to shrieks, and from Qunari are born the ogres."

So most women die too. One of those do the rewards out weigh the risk deals. --Maverick One (talk) 05:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)Maverick

I thought about this a while ago. There's no reason why the women can't just kill themselves, knowing what they'd become. I can imagine that this might be hard for an ordinary woman/female soldier to do, but with how committed the Wardens are, I'd guess they'd be pretty willing to kill themselves if they got captured (even if it came down to bashing their heads in on a wall or something). The official Warden response might be to equip any female Warden with poison (maybe all female Wardens could have a poison filled fake tooth put in after their joining) before they encounter the Darkspawn. Also, even if the rewards do outweigh the risks, it's definitely a risk best avoided.--151.225.130.207 (talk) 10:22, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Even if the entire world knew how broodmothers were made, people couldn't successfully ban every single woman from fighting or providing help, since by your logic, they'd also have to keep female healers (Magic and non-magic) away from military encampments, as well as the priestesses providing moral support. If they tried this ban, they'd have to either arrest or kill every woman with a weapon, magic, or a prayer book during a Blight (Which would only cause further problems). One mildly related example for this can be seen in Mass Effect 3, Reapers would turn dead soldiers into horrifying monsters (so they can't even kill themselves to prevent this). Humans and Batarians were made into average threats, but Asari, Turians and Krogans were made into very powerful enemies that could kill way more people than the human/batarian monsters, and everybody knew. Did the galaxy say "Sorry species that would be very helpful fighting this war, you have to impossibly flee a unrelenting force, cus if you die you'll make things worse for us"? No, they needed every soldier available, and again, when evil forces are attacking everybody, you can't tell them to do nothing. Welshman15 (talk) 11:40, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

If we implement that logic, we should tell the qunari and elves women to steer clear of Darkspawn incursions, deep roads entrances and the blights, that way we only have to face Hurlocks and Genlocks which are pushovers :D I never compared the reapers to the blight, thanks for that, lot of similarities. I mean they're all left with the choice, fight die then become the enemy, or run die and become the enemy. With the Blight, they're left with similar choices, fight die feed the enemy numbers, or run run run and let the entire world become overrun with corruption. Or they fight, win, live. 11:52, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

To quote the great John McClane either Live free or Die Hard, so yeah let anyone fight if they wish. If you're ever in a loosing war zone tell me if every single able body counts or not.-- 13:07, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

This is an iterressting topic ( and many of you bring sound argument ) but the thing is that sometime the logic born of game lore and the reality of our gaming comunity clash and in those moment our real world opinion will always win case in point : how many of you would denounce the game and decries it as sexist if the devs ad choosen to not allow the creation of female protagonist even if it's logicaly justifiable within the context of that world ( i mean you really have to wait until almost the middle of the game to understand that reason wich would make it worse for first playtrough gamers but still justifiable ) you see the devlopers find themselves in a no-win situation a) if they allow the option of female character and the presence of female warrior ( and mage ) on the front line of darkspawn battle then the logic focus gamers will accused them of being imersion breaking incompetant but if they disallow it then it's the gender-equality fighter who will call them sexistDragonInquisitor (talk) 16:57, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Or they could just make female grey wardens immune to the broodmother process, simple--Galvao18 (talk) 19:06, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Just to put down some (admittedly imaginative) numbers:

Say that our average broodmother produce 3000 darkspawn (they produce thousands of darkspawn so I think 3000 is a fairly low amount)

Say that our average female soldier kill one darkspawn (the darkspawn are actually more dangerous than you would think, I have read that one Hurlock is actually better than one human)

Therefore if even one of 3000 female soldiers participating in a battle against darkspawn is turned into a broodmother the benefit of having them is lost, not to mention you had higher casualties this way. Caspoi (talk) 20:43, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

− As has been pointed out- where broodmothers come from has only just recently come to light, so it could very well be that women won't be given as prominent a role in fighting them in the future. This also accounts for why they were allowed to fight in the past, as they could hardly be prohibited from fighting to protect them and everyone else from a hazard that wasn't known to exist. So, ignoring developer oversight, this alone should more than adequately answer the original question. On a side note, even with the countless women who have become broodmothers over the years, the darkspawn do NOT appear to be getting any stronger, quite the opposite in fact. Every blight since the first has been shorter than the last, and every blight since the second has been longer in coming than the one that preceded it with the gap between blights four and five lasting over four hundred years. On top of this, despite the progressive decline of the dwarven empire over the centuries which has persisted as late as 9:13 Dragon- come the present day the dwarves have actually started to regain lost territory- a feat that has not been achieved since the invention of Golems around 1000 TE (or -195 Ancient), more than a millennium before the events of Dragon Age: Origins. So, despite all of the potential broodmothers that have emerged over the centuries, the darkspawn still appear to be in a progressive decline, becoming easier to defeat every time they reemerge and now beginning to lose territory to the dwarves in the deep roads. With that said, the danger of broodmothers created from females isn't as great as it might first appear, as countless broodmothers have already been created, and the darkspawn still appear to be growing weaker as time passes. ----Isolationistmagi 20:48, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I think it is because, as the Architect says, during the blights the darkspawn fight humanity until almost no one is left and during the coming years many of the broodmothers are probably killed. Caspoi (talk) 20:56, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I have thought about the possibilty of our Warden being the first to learn the truth about broodmothers. I can buy into that but heres the problem, why is Sigrun still in the legion by the time of awakening? shouldnt she be called back long before that? The only way for that to make sense is that our warden never told anyone about the BMs, which would be idiotic beyond belief.--Galvao18 (talk) 21:26, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok clown, how would you tell everyone in Ferelden? HOW?! 'cus there is no internet or easy way to tell everyone something... only letters and that's only if you write to every single fucking house and there is no copy-paste... so??? please explain your idiotic idea to me. AND DON'T SAY MAGIC 'CUS THAT'S JUST STUPID.-- 21:38, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Whats with the insult? did i do something to you personally?

and aswering your question: The info would be spread the same way ANY info were spread prior the invention of the media. You tell a King, The King informs their heralds, the heralds spread to the people and the people would do the rest. Thats how people did it to keep themselves informed back then.--Galvao18 (talk) 21:53, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Calm down Dave, you have a point. As well as that Galvao, lets suppose the warden arranged a meeting with all the noble families of Ferelden told them about how BM's were made, then went to Orzammar and told the Assembly members how BMs were made. Whatever follows is political. The warden's done their duty. Why do the noble families have to tell their people about the BM's, why do the assembly need to tell anyone. Spreading that information will incite panic. Women would, most likely, ultimately lose any equality they once had, because men would deem it safer to keep them locked indoors sealed away from the threat.

"The King informs their heralds, the heralds spread to the people and the people would do the rest"

That isn't how it was done back in the ol' days, because the monarchy controlled the information, they chose what could be heard. What you propose is chinese whispers, the story would change with each telling and women would end becoming pariah's in society, because all it takes is one link in the chain of information to twist the story and the whole plan goes to hell. 22:04, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I dont understand. Doestn that mean that since the monarchy controls information they can inform the population if they wish too? how is that any different from what i just said? Also why would women lose their equality if this whole issue is only problem during blights? Everything else would remain the same--Galvao18 (talk) 23:59, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I was highlighting the fact that your argument hinges on the people being kind hearted and truthful, which is not how everyone in Thedas is. We see that much from origins. You're right maybe women wouldn't lose their equality, but there is that possibility. Do you really think Anora would choose to tell the world what the warden tells her despite the unforeseen ramifications of that act. despite the possibility she will be usurped purely because of fear of her becoming a broodmother. Chinese whispers remember. You cannot expect one story to be told the same way to every single person. I mean, Nathaniel even says the warden shoot be 10 ft tall with lightning shooting from his eyes. FYI the whole loss of equality argument is based upon the mages treatment. They are feared because of their potential to become abominations, women will be feared for their potential to become darkspawn spitting baby factories. And that wouldn't just be the case in a blight, the dwarves have women too. 00:19, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

That makes no sense whatsoever, Mages can become abombinations at any given time. Anora (and pretty much any surface women) are at zero risk of becoming a BM unless they decide to throw themselves at the darkspawns during blights. And dwarven women are only at risk if they go to the deep roads, such as Sigrun. Also, the only ones who truly needs to know the truth without it being exagerated are Kings and their generals, so that they can dismiss their female fighters during Blights, and thats it, its not that hard. Also, i never said people need to be "kind hearted" or whatever for information to spread, what i said is that if the Kings of Thedas want to inform their people about something, they can.--Galvao18 (talk) 00:59, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but "the heralds spread to the people and the people would do the rest" implies Faith in People doing the right thing. And my argument does make sense. It is not a bad comparison with abominations and broodmothers. Since it is the same idea. You are completely misguided in saying kings and generals are the only ones who need to know the truth. The commoner doesn't know the full truth behind abominations, and the commoners are the ones capable of inciting mass panic about mages amongst themselves. The same thing can happen were the truth to be revealed, because like I said, all it takes is one story to twist and say women can instantly become BM's when they're exposed to the taint. Just like the misconception revolving around mages. True they can near instantly become abominations, however this does not mean that every single mage in existence should be treated that way, why? Because not every mage can become an abomination "just like that". Yet, that is the case, and it is all because of stories being twisted every time they are told. The Kings of Thedas cannot tell every single resident the same story, not unless they themselves do it. 01:24, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

>Because not every mage can become an abomination "just like that"

But they actually can, Wynne says that no matter how good and experienced a mage is, one slip is all that it takes to become an abomination. the BM issue is a completely different problem alltogether. Also, i beleive the reason why people are so ignorant about the mages is because the chantry made them so with their anti-mage propaganda to begin with. Not educating the people about the mages is good for them because the more people fearing mages, the less sympathizers there will be.

In the end it all comes down to the fact that Kings may or may not be able spread accurate info. (personally i found very hard to beleive that they are unable to if they WANT to, especially if it is something this important) But we have no real way of knowing that. Once again we hit a wall--Galvao18 (talk) 01:37, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

There, lies the flaw. If mages are such a flight risk, then why are they used as an asset during the blight despite the fact that "just one slip" is all it takes for them to become an abomination and slaughter the army from within? They pose as much danger as BM's because should a mage become an abomination they will almost certainly weaken the army even more, increasing the likelihood of utter defeat. Female soldiers on the other hand pose less of an immediate threat. And you're wrong again, the BM issue is not a different problem altogether. Because all it takes is one slip by them, i.e getting captured, and they can possibly become a BM. Demonic possession is a bigger threat to the army than the future generations of darkspawn.

Actually, in the end it comes down to WHO is spreading the information. A king cannot control the words that come out of a messengers mouth, and a king cannot change a message that gets distorted in transmission. Regardless, if the commonfolk heard a story that painted females in a similar way to mages, any attempt by the monarchy to clear things up would not succeed the way they intend it to. There would still be doubt. 02:34, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

>"then why are they used as an asset during the blight"

according to duncan, because the blight is more dangerous than abominations.

>" Because all it takes is one slip by them, i.e getting captured"

Yet they can only get captured during blights (and that is if they throw themselves towards the darkspawn instead of fleeing), raids (which unfortunately cant be avoided most of the times) or if they go to the deep roads. (such as the Legion). This is nowhere near close to a simple "slip".

Also, why are we still discussing this? you've already admited the whole thing doesnt make sense :P --Galvao18 (talk) 03:01, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Right there, the blight is more dangerous than abominations. That is why women fight as well. Because the threat outweighs that one possible outcome. And they can't only be captured during blights. They are more likely to be captured during raids. During a blight EVERYONE is more likely to get "stabbed in the face", not "have a net thrown over them and dragged into the deeps". It is a "slip", and I never described it as simple. And I said it may not make sense, as in it may not make sense in your opinion. 09:31, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

But the broodmothers ARE part of the blight :P

Though i can see your point in the whole blights vs raids deal, still, we dont know where most of the women who are captured are from, after all we do know that they do capture people during blights. (morrigan tells you that there were a lot of darkspawns looking for survivors at Ostagar after the battle) So you might be right, you might be not. Only the writers can answer that one.

With all of that said, women in the Legion is just dumb, you cant deny that one :P--Galvao18 (talk) 15:18, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Actually I can. It isn't dumb. It's a thing called stealth. Female dwarves are the smallest of all the races, with enough training they would easily be able to slip by any darkspawn foes that they alone could not kill (I.e not a large group of them but a single unalerted one). Sigrun is a scout. That is the prime example, scout. That's not someone who gets in the face of the enemy. As well as this, when we visit the deeproads, the archdemon flies past us and doesn't even notice us, a huge horde pass by below, and don't notice us. And you can completely avoid the Forgemaster section. So it's really not that hard to believe that female dwarves would be able to sneak around. That, is something they can probably do better than male dwarves. Besides, even if the BM info has now been provided to dwarves, there are many countermeasures that could be taken, like having one female in a group of ten, where the men are told if the female falls you make sure she is dead, no matter what. Or as many have said, poison can be used, it really isn't hard to accept members of the legion would use poison on themselves considering that they already think of themselves as dead. As long as they take as many darkspawn with them in the process, they die "happy". 17:08, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Deakial, what he wants to hear is yes Galvao, you're right about everything ooh great analytical lord.We are but punny stupid humans compared to your great reasoning. So will that close this stupid nit picky discussion that Galvao is trying to "win" or does his lordship need more appraisal?-- 17:17, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Again, whats your problem with me Dave? Have i insulted you in any way? What with the personal insults? Also, how is that what i am doing is any different from what Deakial is doing? i am presenting my points and he is present his. Thats how discussion works, if anything, he is trying to "win", as you put it, just as much as me. --Galvao18 (talk) 17:30, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dude I my main issue here is that you are starting a war, a pointless war 'cus you won't see things in another light so why fight, just stop it and be done with it... I am not condoning Deakial, but he is my friend and I will stand by my friends and tell to chill and he has.-- 17:39, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

.

Im not starting a war, i'm having one single over-prolonged discussion with some guy. Neither of us are insulting or flaming each other, we are just preseting our points and we are standing by them. I do agree with you that this discussion wont go anywhere, since at this point the only ones who could call the shots are the writers themselves.

What i do NOT agree with is you going passive-aggressive on me, specially since what i am is doing is no different from what your firend is doing.--Galvao18 (talk) 17:53, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I know, I'm just defended the masses who don't want a potential flaw in the story made completely undeniable to them. I present an alternative way of viewing it. But I agree, this isn't going anywhere and the title of the forum suggests an...undesirable topic of discussion for this wiki. I suggest it ends before it gets out of control. 17:24, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

They may not care because Sigrun was casteless before she joined. There's also the fact that once someone joins the Legion they're considered to be dead anyway. Shenachie (talk) 21:47, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

But what if Bhelen is the king? i cant see a pratical guy like him risking females Legionnaries becoming BMs, Harrowmont on the onther hand.... --Galvao18 (talk) 21:58, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

As stated earlier, one you join the Legion, you're dead in the eyes of Orzammar and The Memories. They'd have no reason to call you back if you're considered dead, and if they don't even know if you're dead or alive. I don't think Orzammar has any contact with the Legion so they'd have no way of knowing who's alive and dead.NutMeg29 (talk) 01:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

The Wardens could choose not to tell anyone. It's is already said before, they are an secretive bunch. They might not like the idea of causing an world wide panic. They themselfs will likely be effected by such an event. They always sat on a large amount of knowlegde without sharing it with the rest of the world. They knew the locations of the old Gods, they knew of the inteligent darkspawn (The Architect and Cory), they probably know a whole lot more without telling people. Although I agree that keeping this particalair find from the dwarfs will only make their own lifes harder. --M. Shields (talk) 22:56, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Precisely--Galvao18 (talk) 00:00, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

The Dwarves may or may not completely believe what the GWs tell them considering their view of "surfacers" and non-dwarves, and the GWs have no authority to tell the dwarves who they ought and ought not send to the deep roads. NutMeg29 (talk) 01:32, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

So about non GW female members entering the deeproads, this apparent oversight could've been explained by making it clear that at least Legion of the Dead members would have known about this and have some access to fertility-rendering substances that made their female members barren, else what's the point if you're just expanding your enemies' army, right? It seems reasonable seeing as they hold funerals when they join and are pretty secretive in general. Like, what "dead" woman's going to start having babies anyway? But that would be dependent on the availability/accessibility of this contraceptive and clearly leaves a huge question-mark for non-darkspawn-killing-exclusive organizations.

So going back a bit further regarding female GW going on their Calling and about how fertility decreases due to living with the taint long term - a reasonable assumption to me would be that because they're already at about middle-age by this time, they probably would only have about a 6% chance or so of concieving a child under normal circumstances, so it would be safe to say that even if their ova weren't obliterated by this time they wouldn't be able to actually produce a significant amount of darkspawn IF they survived the mutation by the time of their Calling. That being said, that young females (espcially those who have just hit puberty and are under the age of 25 or so) being dragged into the deeproads would be the only ones capable of mass producing darkspawn as their ova count can be a big as over 300,000, decreasing significantly as they age - assuming the physiology of the inhabitants in Thedas are anything like ours here... and a lot of other hooplah that has to do with biology and stuff.--Khaize (talk) 10:50, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thats all very interesting to consider, thanks for the input. --Galvao18 (talk) 15:23, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's interesting, yes, but it's assuming producing Darkspawn is the same as producing a regular human/dwarf/elf/qunari child. I highly doubt the two are the same, considering Darkspawn are much different living organisms than that of humans and the other races. Darkspawn, technically, are not of the living world. You also have to remember, all women that are turned to Broodmothers consume excessive amounts of the taint before they're turned. They're forced to eat and drink very large amounts of tainted flesh. If the infertile effects of the taint was still applicable to a Broodmother's ability to reproduce, then every broodmother would have trouble even producing one Darkspawn. I don't think the infertile effects of the taint effects a Broodmother's ability to reproduce. NutMeg29 (talk) 01:38, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

If we're going to assume that fertility away from taint is equal to how fertile you are with the taint, then they probably would not go for dwarven women because dwarves are rather infertile due to the long-term exposure to the taint. However, there are so many Genlocks in Origins (Not counting 2 since they never finished all the darkspawn models until Legacy) that it's apparent the closer you are to the taint the more easily one would succumb to the Broodmothering practices. Which is why I'd be surprised if Grey Warden women would go on their calling at all mainly because they're likely at their "most fertile" area for Darkspawn at that point. When you consider darkspawn you need to consider their method of the taint. It's why the Grey Wardens needed to start because if it weren't for the taint the Grey Warden wouldn't be needed because of that spoiler at the end of Origins. I stick with my answer on BioWare trying to be all-inclusive which isn't bad, but I would like to see them have this mentioned in a game at some point. (Grey Warden Father not letting his daughter become one because of this, for example) -- 16:34, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

Galvao, seriously what are you trying to win, why are you looking at every possible angle to destroy a theory? IT'S A GAME, IT'S NOT LIFE... just relax, take in what ever the developer and designers made and if it doesn't fit do not get hooked on on that shit just let it go and enjoy the ride or at the very least do not make it less interesting for the people that do not care about every single tiny detail. Also, this stuff David Gaider doesn't care he said "FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE"...you are just trying to make a pointless point. LET ANYONE ENJOY THE GAME AND DO NOT BOTHER THEM JUST LET THEM BE 'CUS THAT IS FREEDOM AND THAT IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AND YOUR FREEDOM ENDS WHEN IT BOTHERS SOMEONE ELSE AND I THINK YOU'RE STARTING TO BOTHER SOME PEOPLE. -- 17:36, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I'm relaxed as i could possibly be Dave :/

this is a lore discussion forum, i presented my points, some people agreed other dont,thats all there is to it.--Galvao18 (talk) 17:43, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

2 things:

• The way you're doing analyzing stuff is not the way we do thing here ok? We present points and say I agree or not and why, we do not nit pick every tiny little sentence we say like they do in other forums (we are more mature here).
• Lore is not why let women fight, lore is anything on the codex and such.

My question to you was: what will make you stop nitpicking every sentence you have and stop trying to win this argument?-- 17:54, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Read my reply above--Galvao18 (talk) 17:56, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Perfect, so it's closed this is going nowhere and the writers won't deal with... so yeah discussion ended now everybody move along nothing to see here.... thank you. -- 17:58, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

You could have at least apologize you know, but no matter, what is done is done.--Galvao18 (talk) 18:00, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Because otherwise BioWare would be extremely sexist for showing logical concern for women. -- 22:08, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

WHY?!?! WHY?!?! IT WAS DEAD DO NOT BRING IT BACK!!! T_T -- 22:44, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

Dave bro, you know we're good friends. You're my brother from another mother, and I know you get angry. I've been looking back at this forum, i saw no problem with it really. C'mon it's a free community, we're free to do what we want in the laws of the game right? Regardless, not trying to start a war with you here, you know me better than that. Just wondering, since my short absence, has something in particular happened? Talk to me on my talk page bro if you ever want to :) 22:47, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

First if like to say WHOOO ZAMBIE THREAD second usually when wardens go on their calling they fight darkspawn till they die In battle I'm sure most people that get surrounded by darkspawn don't just surrender themselves to the darkspawn other wise we'd see many more broodmothers I'm sure most of them fight till they die WardenMaster (talk) 16:52, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

They probably do (honestly who would want to get captured by the darkspawn, even without knowledge of broodmothers) but then there is the problem that the darkspawn, with large enough numbers and as long as they don't care about casualties, still probably can capture people they really want to take (lone women for instance). Caspoi (talk) 21:07, October 22, 2014 (UTC)

true but darkspawn aren't entirely mindless they may have the intention of capturing someone but if they put up enough of a fight they will eventually just execute the prisoner when they become too troublesome. Where as in the case of Laryn, Branka left them to be captured most of them were nobles and not much of fighters. My theory on who the darkspawn target for becoming broodmothers will be discussed in another thread (i'd rather not keep a zombie thread going that much)--WardenMaster (talk) 21:26, October 22, 2014 (UTC)