Like many people, I was somewhat disappointed with DA2. The thing that bothered me the most though is that Hawke is just so much less impressive than the Warden. In one year, the Warden ended a civil war and defeated a blight. It took Hawke four years to beat up some Qunari and defeat an old woman with a fancy sword. Maybe it's not fair to compare them, as I don't think Hawke's story is supposed to be 'done' yet, but to go from one to the other is more than a little underwhelming.
- One problem being is that you imply that it took Hawke seven years to beat the Qunari (which happened in year 4, not 7, but never mind). She didn't face the Qunari until the end of her fourth year in Kirkwall, and didn't go up against Meredith in combat until the end of year 7. Trying to suggest that her story is less compelling than the Warden's on those grounds is a little silly. Anyway, the Warden ran around the countryside of Ferelden for a year or so putting together allies, running errands for said allies, and confounding Loghain's plans at every turn. But ultimately, while she certainly defeated a historical cataclysm before it truly had the chance to actually become cataclysmic, the Warden didn't otherwise affect the status quo all that much. She actually served to PRESERVE it. Hawke, on the other hand, was, as the story goes, at the heart of events that will literally change the world. The lands of Thedas have been mired in tradition for almost a millenium, and that kind of entrenched custom does indeed take the upheaval of a war to change. Hawke did it. =) 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:25, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- You're right it was four years not seven. I changed the sentence to reflect that. Please note, I was being facetious. I'm well aware that Meredith was not just some woman with a fancy sword, and that Hawke did more than just beat up a few Qunari. The original post was supposed to be a parody comparing the events of the two games. I'm sorry that some people have been offended by this. I actually like both games, I simply thought I could point I what I think is DA2's biggest flaw (the plot) with a fictional exchanged between the two characters rather than directly criticize either game. I meant this to be fun and amusing, as I believe both games are. But I guess I was bound to ruffle some weathers either way. Sandal Amell (talk) 20:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah but it somehow devolved into a flame war at one point, I'm not sure if I'm partly to blame for not making my intent clear from the get go. Sandal Amell (talk) 21:20, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Flame war? Damn, it's either the excessive sleep deprivation or maybe I've just been on the internet too long, in too many fandom boards, but I've overlooked any flames. Tabriel Cousland (talk) 21:29, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah but it somehow devolved into a flame war at one point, I'm not sure if I'm partly to blame for not making my intent clear from the get go. Sandal Amell (talk) 21:20, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- They might've been edited out. There was an entire post that was deleted in fact. I never saw the post, so perhaps I'm making something of nothing, but for someone to need to step in, delete a post, and tell certain posters to cool it (I won't name names) seems a bit flame warish. Maybe it was more of a flame skirmish. Sandal Amell (talk) 21:50, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- The removed post was an incoherent rant against a particular poster and adressed that person in four-letter words. Except for this one, I don't think there was anything else taken out, I've been following this thread quite closely since it's such good fun. It would be a pity to shut it down because a couple of people misunderstand the purpose. Maybe you could put up an explicit explanation that this is meant to be fun, not flame, at the top of the thread? :-) Ygrain (talk) 04:33, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
To illustrate is this, I have created a silly little story about what would happen if Hawke and the Warden got into a bragging competition. Lets see how they compare...
Hawke: Hey, did you hear? I defeated the Arishok in single combat.
Warden: So what? I killed a Broodmother.
Hawke: Yeah, well I killed a Varterral.
Warden: Me too.
Hawke: Well...I slew a High Dragon.
Warden: I've killed four.
Hawke: Well, I defeated this templar knight-commander who was clearly possessed by some kind of super pride demon or something.
Warden: Yeah? Well, I created an army composed of Dalish elves, Orzammar dwarves, and mages using an old piece of paper. Then I ended a civil war more or less peacefully. Then I lead said army to battle against the darkspawn horde, fought and killed the Archdemon and then - instead of dying like I was supposed to - got up and went to a party.
Hawke: Well I um...uh...I slept with Isabella.
Warden: Who hasn't? Honestly I'd be more impressed if you said you didn't sleep with her.
Hawke: Sod off.
Warden: I mean, by the transitive property of Isabella, we've slept with each other.
Warden: Also, I should tell you that through Isabella you've slept with Zevran and Leliana.
Hawke: Through Isabella we've both slept with half of Thedas.
Warden: No, I mean I had a foursome with Isabella and those two.
Hawke: Liar. I met Leliana the other day, she's a Chantry Seeker, I think they take vows and stuff.
Warden: Wait, you met her? I decapitated her seven years ago!
Hawke: Well, her head was attached to her neck when I saw her.
Warden: Huh. I guess her headless corpse must have wandered over the Urn of Sacred Ashes that I had just defiled...
Hawke: Maybe she has a twin? With the same name...
Warden: Whatever, I've seen weirder things. Anyway, I should go, I need to head back through the Eluvian and teach my son how to use his Dragon God powers before he accidentally shatters the Veil...or worse, pisses off his mother.
Hawke: You have an Eluvian? I know someone who would be really interested in -
Warden: Oh by the way, here's about nine hundred sovereigns, use it for whatever, I just hate carrying around that much change.
Hawke: Wow, thanks!
And that is how the Champion bought food and housing for all of the Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall and was forever known as the Benefactor of Kirkwall.
- Lost it at "Warden: Oh by the way, here's about nine hundred sovereigns, use it for whatever, I just hate carrying around that much change." Dalish Warden edit.
- Hawke: You have an Eluvian? My friend, Merrill, would be really interested in -
- Dalish Warden: "Merrill is doing WHAT?! DOES SHE EVEN-- WHAT!?"
- Hawke: ...Say what now?
- Dalish Warden: That mirror is the reason my best friend is dead, the reason I got stuck with the Wardens, not that I mind, and tore me away from my clan, but the fact is she knows what it can do, AND IS STILL USING IT?!
- Hawke: Yeah, I gave her the final piece to--
An amusing read, but you've neglected "The Warden's" fatal flaw: Which one are you talking about? Cousland? Aeducan? Amell? The Orlesian Warden? If this question is to illustrate anything it's that anyone could have been "The Hero of Fereledan" if put into the position. Even Alistar if the Darkspawn Chronicles are any indication and don't give me any "but Alistar did this or Alistar didn't do that." The Warden could have done as much or as little as Alistar and still win. Boiled down to it's core, The Warden is quite literally a faceless hero, with no more meaning or identity than what you're willing to give him/her and is otherwise incapable of any action without your say so. Not that it's bad or anything, the faceless hero archetype certainly makes it easier for the player to assume the role of the hero.
Hawke on the other hand has an identity unique to him/herself and one of three different personalities to allow for some autonomy in future stories. Who else but Hawke could have risen from the gutters of Kirkwall to become it's champion. Who else but Hawke could have broken through the Qunari siege and defeated the Arishok in combat. Who else but Hawke could have stopped the lyrium mad Meredith or desperately cornered Orsino. Hawke, being a character with a single origin if you will, has a certain uniqueness that "The Warden" can never really have. A uniqueness that can cause some friction between player and character, particularly in these "choose the outcome" kind of games.
But hey, it's all apples and oranges if you think about it, and you can't really say one is better than the other. Multi-background characters have their pros and cons same as single background characters. And considering this maybe people could cut Hawke some slack when comparing him/her to the Warden.--Ghostzins (talk) 07:25, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
haha brilliant, love it. If my two met, I wish my warden would give me health poultices... I had like 200 after defeating the archdemon O.O And I dont really agree, I think the warden is more unique, because s/he had soooo many possibilities, and Hawke was whatever the game had previously decided... apart from how my Hawke looks, there will be a massive number of people that have played DAII that have a character virtually identical to mine... Katykuns (talk) 10:18, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
Lot of effort into that, was pretty funny. One thing that almost always seems to be left out of consideration is that unlike the events that the Warden takes part in Hawke's story is just that a story. One that is told to us by Varric. I'm sure some of it is fact but just how much of it is, is up for question. Until we know, if we ever even do, Hawke and the Warden can't really be compared. Ogj83 (talk) 12:27, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
Nobody mentions the ... Rock Wraith? I mean, it is one of a kind something, predating the construction of the Deep Roads. I think that's something Hawke will absolutely brag about. EDIT: First time posting in a wiki, I do no know how to sign and stuff, please ignore.
Sign with four tildes they look like this: ~ And come on! Hawke killed a Rock Wraith, which wasn't a particularly challenging foe, killed the Arishok and the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle, he didn't even kill Meredith, her sword just explded. The Warden on the other hand: Killed 4 High Dragons, found the ashes of Andraste, "killed" the Witch of the Wilds, became Prince of Ferelden, killed 5 broodmothers (including the Mother), killed the Architect, killed a varterral. King Cousland (talk) 17:01, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
You forgot one:
Hawke: I saved Kirkwall
Warden: So did i, and Fereldon and Thedas
Hawke: I surived the blight(i managed to flee to Kirkwall)
Warden: I killed Archdemon... survived and stopped the blight in one year, there is no need to flee... and you spent ten years stopping a mad Knight Commander.
Yes I agree DAII has some serious problems, but these arent necassarilly related to lack of heroisme compared to DAO, you cant save Thedas every ten years and somehow you cant have something. --PeterR (talk) 17:18, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
LEAVE HAWKEY ALONE!
Hawke is the ultimate troll:
Warden: I brought a nation-wide peace to the Circle and Ferelden. Hawke: I brought a world-wide war to the Circle and Thedas. U JELLY?
Warden: I killed Flemeth, the legendary Witch of the Wilds. The woman could turn into a f*cking High Dragon!!! Hawke: Cool story, bro. I met a fucking High Dragon who could turn into Flemeth. I brought her back. U MAD?
Deal with it.
- If my Warden had that conversation, Hawke's neck would suddenly be enjoying a pleasant breeze, if you catch my drift. --CommanderCousland (talk) 18:27, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
Lol... I would love to be there just for that conversation!
Hawke: Uhh yea.. all the 'progress' you made with the circle... i undid it. Flemeth? Dead? Naaah! I revived her
- sheepy smile*
- Warden clenches his fist, slowly turning red*
Fanmade DLC :D
Thanks for the replies. Forgot to sign this, sorry about that.
I didn't hate DA2 or Hawke - I actually think that on it's own, it's a pretty good game, and Hawke is a good character. But I felt that the plot of DAO was much better. This was really just supposed to be a parody. Also, at the end of DA2, I had this feeling of "that's it?" I was excepting another act - it was only year seven and I figured the game was supposed to last a decade.
And yes I have several Wardens who slept with Leliana, cheated on her, then killed her. I can only hope that I get the chance to kill her again.
You all neglect the fact that though 'The Warden' may have defeated the blight and the civil war, a crazed brood mother a harvester and tracked down a witch (Morrigan), Hawke's story is still more important because although it is less impressive, it's not what they did but the effects of the choices they made. The warden's ends after finding Morrigan, but Hawke set in motion a mass exodus which changed (or will change) the face of Thedas forever. Also, Anders is a lot more cool in DA2.
- What are you on that makes you think Anders was cooler in DA2? Awakening Anders has a sense of humor and wasn't borderline psychotic. He was my second favorite character in Origins(beaten only by Morrigan, due to her great assests). --CommanderCousland (talk) 20:37, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
- Not all of us rate being shallow and having a snarky sense of humor as the end-all be-all of character coolness, is all. Anders is my favorite character of the series so far, and I found DA2!Anders to be far and away superior to Awakening!Anders. To start with he's a lot more developed in DA2, and overall, he's the classic example of a tragic character. Then again, I personally view Anders as a desperate and troubled man who took it upon himself to bloody his own hands in a terrible, but necessary choice, so that no one else would have to, rather than over-simplifying him as OMG!TERRORIST, or better yet OMG!ANDERSBINLADEN! Tabriel Cousland (talk) 21:16, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
I like to think of the Anders from Awakening and the Anders from DA2 as two separate characters. The Anders from DA2 is (kinda) possessed by a spirit of Justice...or Vengeance...which drastically changed his personality. It may seem like a cheap cop-out for the writers to reinvent Anders, but I think it works. "Normal" abominations, who are possessed by demons are warped physically, but Anders is (kinda) possessed by a spirit, so instead he changes psychologically. Is the Awakening Anders more likable? Hell yes, but the DA2 Anders is a much more complex character, and certainty more interesting. Borderline psychotics are usually interesting.
I dont think the fact that the warden stopped a civil war by it self is that important, but considering the fact that nothing they mentioned in DAO and DAII seems to be more dangerous then a blight(since the blight began) suggests that the biggest hero is the on who stops the blight. Hawke on the other hand is basically a rebel, but I have a hard seing his/her deeds to be bigger then e.g. those of Andraste. Don't forget that an unstopped blight would have changed Thedas as well in a unquestionable negative way for its people. I dont think we will know about Hawkes real deeds until the expansion(which might add the last three years). PeterR (talk) 21:20, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
First things first,The Arhdemon was a freaking weakling,killed with balistas and an army.The so called crazed broodmothers are not to be counted as legendary foes,they were an epic fail.Then the Arishok is so much more powerful than the Mother or the Architect or Havens High Dragon.
Then The Warden killed Flemeth,Hawke revived her,which is much more epic.Then Hawke started a war that will change the face of THEDAS,and the Warden saved only Ferelden.
And besides Bioware said that Hawke will become the single most impotant(read epic)person who ever lived.
P.S.Hawke slew Orsino(a Harvesting Blood Mage),an Ancient Rock Wraith(feared by the Dwarves),Meredith(who is corrupted byRed Lyrium,feared by the dwarves,and Flemeth).He also is currently on the Divine's Blacklist,the second beign the Warden.i LIKE THEM BOTH,BUT hAWKE is totaly epic and unique.Hexlord (talk) 22:25, April 18, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
- Oh crap. Another ten year old has invaded the forums. I disagree with everything you said. Considering that broodmothers are a major source of darkspawn and ogres, I'd say that they are legendary (remember: a blight is started by darkspawn corrupting an old god). You can't really compare the power of villains from two games that are almost completely different (so the Arishok is not definitively more powerful than anything in DAO or DAA). I'd also say that any perceivable increase in power is undone by the fact that Hawke's story is told by Varric (whom seems to take several liberties in his tale). For instance, I doubt the Arishok could actually run like Sonic the Hedgehog. DAO's High Dragons are quite powerful, I wouldn't discount them if I were you (especially in comparison to the Arishok, meh). Hawke did not revive Flemeth, as a living part of her was inside the amulet. Merrill is the one that performs the ritual to release Flemeth from the amulet, not Hawke. In Awakening, The Warden defeats an Armored ogre, an Inferno golem, the Queen of the Blackmarsh (a spectral dragon), and the Baroness. Hawke is actually said to be "the single most important character in the world of Dragon Age." This can be interpreted in many ways. The Dragon Age is a time period. So, it is likely meant that Hawke is the most important character in this current age. I doubt that BioWare would limit their future sequel possibilities by actually making Hawke the end-all be-all character of the entire series. History beyond DA2 has yet to be written. AND it is more likely that the "most important" tag was merely a marketing ploy to boost sales. Honestly, Hawke's role isn't that important. His companions perform much more important functions. The events of DA2 could have been resolved without Hawke. DAO's events, however, required The Warden's existence. Considering that Leliana already had news of The Warden's disappearance upon meeting with Cassandra, I'd say that The Warden is actually number one on the Divine's blacklist. Customization is far greater for the Warden than for Hawke, so there are far more unique Wardens than there are unique Hawkes. ChomskyDisciple (talk) 01:07, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
To Hexlord: What Chomsky said. Also, an Ogre should be more powerful than the Arishok, considering the size of those things and the fact that Ogres are the darkspawn version of Qunari. However, the fight with him was fun, mainly because Hawke gets to show off his uber skills in front of all the nobles.
- Skills like running in circles really fast while waiting for potion cooldown and dodging Arishok's charge? >:-) As for Ogre, thing's powerful, but dumb. Brain > size, Arishok's rightfully more dangerous than Ogre. Now if only that fight were implemented in something else than Ogre-dumb manner...sigh. Dorquemada (talk) 06:40, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
- Skills such as casting Decoy, hit Auto-Attack, then play a better game in a new window until the Arishok finally keels over. (I liked the earlier argument that Archie is a weakling because he was killed with ballistae and an army. What a wuss. Especially if you're playing on Easy or Normal, where the ballistae don't jam. What kind of loser goes into a fight with nothing but an army?) Futonrevoltion (talk) 06:52, April 19, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
Lets not forget the two games isn't comparable, the game mechanics isn't the same in both games. I guess that if the game mechanics was the same, then the high dragons would be similar in strength and that makes a tie since both Hawke and the Warden defeated a high dragon. Secondly we cant use DAA as a comparison, since we haven't seen the expansion for DAII. But by the speed bioware makes their games, expect it to arrive sooner rather then later.
Flemeth, whats most impressive defeating the legendary witch of the wild or carrying her to a summit? I think the Warden wins that bit quite clearly.
Defeating the Arishock or defeating a broodmother. Defeating the Arishok requires that you defeat a small army of qunaries and then kill yet another qunari, Hawke wasn't the only warrior in the city, the qunaris was outnumbered and would definately have been slain even without the aid of Hawke. The only thing the incident with the Qunaries prove is that Kirkwall is poorly defended, despite the enemy being in a enclosed area. This makes the battle quite stupid actually(who allows a foreign army to literally run to the regent castle in a big city). Defeating the broodmother(DAO) requires The Warden and his/her three team mates to clear a path through the deep roads, finishing of with the dead trenches. She/he gets a bit of aid from the legendary Legend Of The Dead, the fact remains that the dwarfs(darkspawn experts) them self haven't reached these areas in legendary ages. The point clearly goes to the warden.
Then there is end of DAII and DAO, DAII is more or less like a bad Hollywood movie a bit surpirising but because it is terrible. The ending in DAO is more predictable and more classical, killing the most feared and legendary kind of dragon must be a pinnicle.
The beginning. Hawke and the warden starts their new life similarly poor and almost alone. Hawke spends the first year as a mercenary, the spent the same time saving the world. Point goes to the warden. And I could go on, i do actually have a hard time finding any important deed where Hawke wins, sadly I think thats mostly beacuse bioware didn't make a DAOII but rushed with a DAII. Hawke is and interesting story told badly, The warden is totally predictable story told interestingly so Hawke will loose no matter what. PeterR (talk) 08:40, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
First things first,I'm not 10,I'm 17(but a bit childish at some times).
Also I forgot to mention Hawke killed Hybis and Xeckenbeck or soething like that.But the Warden killed Gaxang.I like the Warden,he was that save the world guy,but I like Hawke more,he was a human beign with desires and emotions unlike the warden who was an android from DBZ :P Hexlord (talk) 21:45, April 19, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord And I thought th broodmothers were too weak,I killed my first broodmother in 2 minutes Hexlord (talk) 21:49, April 19, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
- That's not all that impressive to people who don't know what party and difficulty you were using. Hawke is, indeed, "a human being," as in one singular person to play as. The Warden could be any of a dozen-ish personality types. Hawke is Hawke, while the Warden is as interesting as the player is. Futonrevoltion (talk) 22:44, April 19, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
- If that is the case, then I guess Hexlord must have a pretty bland personality. --CommanderCousland (talk) 22:54, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
- Yup; I love timebomb insults that do double-duty as winking at those in the know, like LMGTFY and the like. I read something a week or so ago positing that MCs (Mute player-Characters) in RPGs are player-driven leaders, while voiced ones are story-driven sidekicks. Not sure if I fully agree, but it was food for thought. Futonrevoltion (talk) 23:50, April 19, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
- If that is the case, then I guess Hexlord must have a pretty bland personality. --CommanderCousland (talk) 22:54, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
- You know who - for me - Hawke is really much better than? ME2's Shepard. I've never seen a more obnoxious Mary Sue in any game, what with everyone (including digital life forms and Great Old Ones life forms) in universe and their dogs sporting huge boners for him/her and him basically being the Messiah and the most important person in life, universe and everything...ugh. And yet, I guess his Marysueness is one of the key reasons ME2 got so popular, just as how Hawke being an everyman contributed to majority's disappointment in DA2. Oh well. At least I'm earning some hipster cred here. Dorquemada (talk) 07:29, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
My warden would teach my Hawke how to not have a cool down time on your healing potions. She’d also regale Hawke with stories of Anders before he got so...DA2. And my Hawke would return the favor by fixing my Warden’s vocal cords so she wouldn’t have to mime everything (I assume that’s how they communicated in DA:O?) Mrs.AlistairTheirin 23:37, April 19, 2011 (UTC)
There's no big evil or end of the world coming, of course the fellow who saved the word did greater deeds than the one who caused it to change. More people will be affected because of Hawke though. The Warden saved them, without him many would be dead and the Blight would have grown beyond anything a single nation could do. But Hawke's actions will be remembered as greater because people were affected, not saved from being affected. That aside the Warden is much more impressive. (Knight Templar (talk) 00:04, April 20, 2011 (UTC))
- This is a fair point that a lot of people are overlooking, it seems. The Blight may be a potentially world-shattering event, but the Fifth one didn't extend beyond Ferelden. DA2 would suggest that the only inkling the rest of the world got that there was a Blight on was the sudden flood of Ferelden refugees pouring in. Hawke, on the other hand, was part of the events that led to the mage war that will affect the entire world--or at least the entirety of Thedas. Although I really think that Hawke was rather incidental to that whole thing. If any one person was at the center of that particular firestorm, it's Anders. This is actually starting to really annoy me. The potential problems with the Qunari seem to pale in comparison to the war flaring between the Circles and the Chantry, and yet Hawke's role in that was minimal. Tabriel Cousland (talk) 21:42, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
I once read a quote somewhere that said "If you do something right the first time, no one will know how hard it was." it was being applied to building things but im using it for warden-hawke debate. like Knight Templar said. The Warden did the job right. the blight was stopped and it didn't spread anywhere else. i remember hearing someone in DA2 say that the fereldans probably made the whole thing up since it didn't bother anyone outside of it. while hawke messed up big time and caused a lot of innocent people to die. he didn't do the job right.--Lord Enders (talk) 02:39, April 20, 2011 (UTC)
The Arishok is smarter than an Ogre, yes, but Hawke doesn't fight the Arishok as a field commander, he fights him either one-on-one or with a few Qunari as backup. In that setting, killing an Ogre would be more or equally impressive, though obviously in terms of gameplay the Arishok is harder to kill.
As for Hawke showing off to the nobles? My point was that it was the setting and context of the fight that made it memorable, not the fight itself. Really anything Hawke does would impress the nobles. To compare:
Hawke = about ten Olympic athletes rolled into one.
Nobles = well...us.
Oh, yeah... one more point for the Warden:
Warden: You know, I killed this guy Howe, and then I made such an impression on his son that he actually pleaded to join my order.
Hawke: Eh... uhm... excuse me... /leaves to investigate which of his vanquished enemies had a son/
-Seriously, I think that the Warden - Nathaniel relationship was grossly underplayed if you play a Cousland, but in love, war and bragging everything is allowed :-) Ygrain (talk) 05:47, April 20, 2011 (UTC)
- Hawke: I killed the brother of a guy who not only joined me, but immortalized me in a book with a neat little group photo of us. Well, actually, he killed his brother. And it was after he joined me, but I was *totally* standing in the same room.
- As a male Cousland in Awakening, you find out that Howe's daughter thought you were a loser. She probably got married, at least in part, to avoid an arranged marriage to the Warden. I rather liked that bit. Futonrevoltion (talk) 22:49, April 20, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
Sorry,guys,for making you all riled up about Arishok's and Ogres,but my piont was not that The Warden is a weakling or that Hawke was the ultimate troll/hero.My piont was that do not underestimate Hawke or triple The Warden's featsHexlord (talk) 22:33, April 20, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
WOW, you are really a fucking moron, did you even finished the dlc?, Alistair Fails, he dies, and the blight expands without the Warden, i have never seen someone as stupid as you.
- I bet you're a real joy to be around. People must flock from far and wide for your insightful conversation. Futonrevoltion (talk) 22:49, April 20, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
- Yeah,right?Like you are any better.Hexlord (talk) 22:52, April 20, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
- My mommy says I'm smart, funny, and handsome. Futonrevoltion (talk) 22:56, April 20, 2011 (UTC)Futonrevoltion
- Listen man I was kidding alright.Maybe you lie that maybe u do not.But no offence man my friends and my girlfriend said that I am a very interesting person.Plus that I am the most handsome man in the world mwahahahahhahaha.Now how about that,aha :D Hexlord (talk) 22:59, April 20, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
Oh a hyperbole competition? Well then...
I can give women orgasms with a single look. I'm so strong the I've turned two houses into splinters because I lost my temper and slammed the door. I'm so smart that I can read the entire library of congress faster than the average person can solve a simple algebra equation. I can telepathically communicate with my friends, family, animals, and small children. I can change the channel on the TV by blinking. In fact, right now I'm surfing the web with my mind, while running over the Atlantic ocean and playing the violin with one hand and tweeting with the pope.
This one time I met Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie - I snapped my fingers and Brad Pitt turned into a bunch of bloody cubes. Then Angelina Jolie proceeded to strip naked and dry hump me. The press would've caught this on film, but no camera can record my image or else it will explode. In fact, even my true name cannot be uttered without first sacrificing a virgin, lest the speaker melt into a pile of human goo.
What was the point of this again?
- It's a good thing I finished my tea. Otherwise the screen would be soaked and my sinuses in pain. Thank you. Jessica Sutter (talk) 20:17, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
@Hexlord: Little boy/troll, you play as a Hurlock Vanguard in Darkspawn Chronicles. In this DLC campaign (in which The Warden did not survive the joining ritual), you kill Alistair and all of his allies; this inevitably leads to the blight spreading further (as there are no other Grey Wardens in Ferelden). In DAO, The Warden slays (or commands someone to slay) the Archdemon, which quells the blight. Obviously, The Warden's existence is pivotal. Hawke's role could have easily been filled by any of his companions. Now, you (Hexlord) can either leave the forum talk to the big boys and girls (who can actually type and make coherent arguments) or you can learn to type and start making coherent arguments yourself. The former option will spare you any further embarrassment and the latter option might gain you some actual credibility. Either way, you win. Okay? ChomskyDisciple (talk) 05:18, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
Hahhahahahhahahahahha,youre so funny,you know?Maybe you are just a little boy who pretends to be tough and strong,but I did not came here to have arguements with you.Now,ehem,after this disturbance,Let's continue.In the Darkspawn Chronicles the Hurlock Vanguard had a pivotal role,but it's setting and background clearly tell that no "the warden was needed",abd without that Hurlock Vanguard you/I played with Alistair could have killed the Archdemon,Mister I am a tough sixyear old.Hexlord (talk) 21:30, April 21, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
- @Hexlord: So instead of learning to type and making coherent arguments for your unimportant buddy Hawke (like I suggested), you'd rather continue to make the factually incorrect (and ridiculously idiotic) claim that The Warden is not important? "Hurlock Vanguard" is a more specific name for any one of the Hurlock generals you can fight during the Battle of Denerim. Each hurlock general can be killed by The Warden. The "Hurlock Vanguard" is not really a new character, but a given name from the Archdemon to one of its hurlock generals. ChomskyDisciple (talk) 22:06, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
- Now I am going to be seriuos.I am nottelling that The Warden was not important.My point is that Hawkeis also important.Well the Warden killed the Archdemon and all that but I think that underestmating Hawke is like underestimating The Warden,so I tried to re en act your claims that Hawke was so unimportant and all that.Understand,Chomsky? Hexlord (talk) 22:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC) -->Hexlord
@Sandal Amell You sir. have made me bow with your hyperbole. party because it was funny. but mostly because i'm so incredibly lazy i don't want to make a retort. haha--Lord♣Enders (♥talk) 05:56, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
Hawke: Have I mentioned that I started my career as a total nobody - just slightly better off than a slave?
Warden: Actually, my real career started when I was declared an outlaw, traitor and kingslayer - a double outlaw and traitor, as a Cousland. Naturally, I personaly executed the guy who framed me... now, can you remind me what you did to the guy who put you in the servitude?
I think that the guy who said that Hawke is the ultimate troll has the right idea. You kill Flemmeth,the idiot revives her.You save the world,he just messes it up and everyone is flocking towards him as if he were Warden and Morrigan's god child.--SJD2342 (talk) 06:40, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
Hawke: I have a pet mubari named Barkspawn
Warden: So what, so do I.
Hawke: Is his name Barkspawn too?
Hawke: What a coincidence.
Warden: No it's not. Thats what the player decided to name dog.
Hawke: Oh, That makes sense. Anyway, can he magically appear as a fifth companion when you have trouble with endless waves of enemies appearing out of thin air?
Warden: Er, no.
Hawke: Thats too bad.
Warden: Did you just say endless waves of enemies who appear out of thin air? You must mean Shades.
Hawke: Nope, I mean Darkspawn, Templars, & Qunari
Warden: Darkspawn, Templars, & Qunari appearing out of thin air? Really?
Hawke: What? My dog just magically appearing didn't just grab your attention?
Warden: I hope you're making that up.
Hawke: No. it's true
Warden: Right, whatever you say.
Hawke: Things are different in Kirkwall.
Warden: Uh yeah, sure they are, whatever you say. So, does your mubari really appear out of thin air?
Hawke: Only when i call him.
Warden: And poof, barkspawn is there by your side?
Well here's my attempt XD
Hawke: I met a grey Warden once. Said there was more pressing mattter during a war? What's more pressing than a war?
Warden: Oh right, that, yeah official warden bussiness. Perks of being part of a secret organization and not just a refugee.
Hawke: Well my game lasted 10 years.
Warden: Ooo 10 years. You mean play a bit then jump 3 years giving only a brief explanation of what happened during those 3 years so the developers could maybe fill it in later with DLC or just got lazy.
Warden: Don't worry I doubt anything interesting happened during those 3 years not alot can happen really, can it.
Fun. Let me join in.
Hawke: Oh yeah, I forgot. I can live longer than you, Grey Warden.
Warden: Well, it doesn't mean anything if your life is just so boring that you have to ...like, skip years.
Hawke: I have a mansion for noble in Hightown which i personally bought. You live in camps, dont you?
Warden: I'm given lands, by a king.
Hawke: It's not like you go back there, anyway.
Warden: Hell, you pretty much fled from your house, dude.
Warden: Enough about you. I'm sure you never even got to orzammar and hell, any other city outside Kirkwall
Hawke: Well, i didn't enter orzammar to feed some beggars there but I killed a big ass rock wraith in a thaig so ancient dwarves don't even know of in the Deep Road.
Warden: Hah, I even entered Fade and had an enjoyable time using powers i dont normally possess.
Hawke: I erm...
Warden: You what? Don't tell me you have something that can change your face now. And not to surprise people with a new face at that.
Hawke: Hey, I actually do. Thanks for the suggestion. I bet you are frustrated that you stuck with the same badly built face for ages hahaha.
Warden: SHIT *facepalm...
Warden: but...i erm...YEAH, i can make out and make love with my love interest WHENEVER I WANT.
Hawke: SHIT *facepalm...
@Hexlord: Merrill releases Flemeth from the amulet (Hawke is merely an errand boy). His/her role in this could have been filled by any passerby. Varric finds out about Anders and the Grey Warden maps, allowing the Deep Roads Expedition to commence. Varric or Bertrand would have easily made enough money for the expedition, given enough time. I honestly believe that the Ancient Rock Wraith was merely added for the purpose of having a huge boss fight (either by BioWare or Varric). It might as well be non-canon, as there is no reference to or source for rock wraiths in DAO. The Qunari invasion would have occurred, regardless of Hawke being in Kirkwall (as it was Isabela's actions that lead the Qunari to leave their homeland and shipwreck near Kirkwall). It was also the Arishok's dislike for the people of Kirkwall that made him initiate the invasion. The only way that you can prevent a fight with the Arishok is by handing over the optional companion Isabela (thus, the companion is more important than the main character). The possible one-on-one duel with the Arishok is described by Cassandra as "romantic" (in this case, exaggerated or unrealistic). As Varric is a storyteller known for intentionally fudging details, we can assume that Hawke most definitely had support from his/her companions. Either Meredith or Orsino (while not being companions) would have easily defeated the Arishok without Hawke's help. Meredith and Orsino's conflict sprang from the lack of a Viscount, after the Arishok murders him. Anders destroys the Chantry (regardless of Hawke's actions), which pushes the verbal conflict into physical combat; Hawke is forced to enter the ensuing conflict because he/she happens to be the "Champion of Kirkwall." And outright global war was actually inevitable. Hawke's existence is irrelevant. He/she is thrust into a role that doesn't even need to exist, as the game's important events (Qunari invasion, mage/templar conflict) would occur naturally. The Warden was pivotal in the ending of an event (the blight) that would have most likely spelled disaster for Ferelden (and Thedas). Ferelden was in a civil war with only two Grey Wardens. Nothing of interest occurs in Kirkwall until the Qunari decide to launch a war against the city. They didn't launch a war against a nation, just one city. They were no more of a threat to Kirkwall (especially with Meredith and Orsino) than the undead were to Redcliffe (with the Warden's help) in DAO. Hawke is not important. ChomskyDisciple (talk) 23:37, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
Well, important or not is just to the majority. I personally prefer Hawke because he goes deeper into helping his companions than the Warden who mostly helps while passing by. Also, Hawke mostly helps cuz he feels like helping while The Warden only helps cuz that's his duty. -iamin7ove
- Hawke has no choice in the matter of helping either; no game revolves around the main character doing nothing, after all. The Warden's only duty is to stop the Blight; he/she has the choice of deciding how the Blight is ended. Hawke (by extension, the player) has far less choice in what happens to Kirkwall. Side quests for both characters are optional. Optional tasks are not a part of anyone's duty. By completing side quests, the Warden is deviating from his/her duty out of a desire to help others. By the way, you need to sign your posts correctly. ChomskyDisciple (talk) 00:15, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
You don't understand my point, do you? I'm just saying i prefer a hero that saves his friends than someone's hailed for keeping the world from destruction just because he happens to be pushed into it by fate. Now that i look back, no origins actually mentions the main char wanting to save the world before becoming a Grey Warden. You should understand that whether one save the world or not, the world doesn't get any better or worse. Sure the world didn't end cuz of the blight thx to the Warden but that is for what? For the conflicts that started by humans themselves? (War between mages and templar is only a beginning of other wars, mind you) All paths should be equal. What matters is the feelings you felt about your deeds. IF alive, I'm sure the Warden will one day look back at all the wars after the Blight and think "Just what kind of world did i save? Just how many people there are that actually appreciate the life that i saved for them? How many people suffer from the fact that i saved the world?" and wonder if he made the right choice saving the world.
- Hawke wouldn't have had much of a story without the Warden quelling the Blight. If the Warden and his allies had lost the Battle of Denerim (like in the alternate history of the Darkspawn Chronicles because the Warden did not survive the joining ritual), the Blight would have spread. My guess is that it would have traveled through and ravaged every major city in the area, at least; the order would be Amaranthine (location in DAA), Highever, Kirkwall, etc. This would all occur as Hawke is either working for smugglers/mercenaries or gaining funds for the Deep Roads Expedition, as Kirkwall didn't find out about the quelled blight until after the events of Awakening (as Anders was in Kirkwall by this time, in the quelled blight timeline). There would be no known Grey Wardens in the city proper of Kirkwall (Alistair died in the Battle of Denerim, Anders never became one, Bethany/Carver can only become Grey Wardens after the Deep Roads Expedition, Nathaniel never became one, Stroud only appears in the Deep Roads if Anders is in your party). Hawke is very likely to have died, if the Blight had spread. There wouldn't be a Kirkwall or companions for Hawke to help. The Warden indirectly saved Hawke's life, Kirkwall, and possibly all of Thedas. The Warden is partially responsible for the mage/templar conflict too. In DAA, the Warden recruits Anders into the Grey Wardens instead of killing him. We all know what Anders ends up doing in Act III (regardless of Hawke's participation). Again, the Warden is far more important than Hawke. Had the Warden not made Anders a Grey Warden (instead killing him or sending him to the circle of magi), the Kirkwall Chantry wouldn't have been destroyed and the Grand Cleric might have been able to solve the conflict before it got out of hand. Though, the mage/templar conflict might have been inevitable (and out of everybody's control). ChomskyDisciple (talk) 04:48, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
Chris in Resident Evil 5 wondered this after saving the world. and oh yeah, about my sign. Its not like it matters that much anyway. -iamin7ove
Warden: I animate at brothels
Hawke: But i got to see a Chantry sister in the brothel (half truth)
Warden: ... ---
- ENOUGH. Chomsky may not be guiltless in this, but I suggest you edit your post and remove the insults AT ONCE. This is no place for such behaviour. And while you're at it, split your post into paragraphs, if you want to discuss your points, that bunch of text is illegible. Ygrain (talk) 10:18, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Ygrain is right.Edit your post now.This is not bloody World of Warcraft or something.I remember a guy saying that this is for a bunch of classier folk.EDIT your posts and get rid of insults.Also stop bloody wailing about Hawke or bloody Warden.This was started in good humor and was not meant for your Warden vs Hawke deathmatch.Take a good look at the original post.This was for bloody Humor.--SJD2342 (talk) 10:55, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- While I´m most glad to see that offending stuff gone, I don´t think that anyone but admins is entitled to delete someone else´s post, especially if they don´t even sign their own posts. - Seriously, guys: I´m VERY pissed with the way the discussions are going these days, and if I come across a post like that again, I will not hesitate a second. The same applies for edits you are not entitled to. Ygrain (talk) 16:39, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
It is best to avoid removing comments, or altering them without the author's consent. However, in cases where the whole post is disruptive (personal attacks, trolling), then it's generally accepted to do it. Part of the forum guidelines suggest that only administrators can do it, but there's a conflict with the talk page guidelines (I don't know why this is like that, both guidelines should closely be the same).
Part of the anonymous's comment that was removed did contain comments that were not appropriate, but not the whole post. Since it's been removed, it will remain as such. However, if the anon wants to repost it, they are free to do it, but inappropriate comments must be removed from the original post. --D. (talk · contr) 17:08, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
- Aw, Chomsky, look watcha did - made a little child stomp its foot and bawl hysterically and throw an overall pitiful public tantrum. :( Dorquemada (talk) 11:02, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
Who is this child? Wow, im more impressed that you guys actually read that. I thought everyone would just ignore it after 4-5 lines. Mah, just ignore him =o. The psychology book says it's best to ignore children that are throwing the tantrum
Btw, whoever says Arishok is weaker than an orge should reflect on themselves. Rem that arishok is not just any quanri but one of the four big heads just like Hawke is not just any human but a champion. You can kill hudlock which is made from humans then Arishok can stomp orges.
Also, can you pls overate the Warden? Remember that he's not the represetnative of all Grey Warden. He IS one Warden. REM "the strength of the Grey Wardens is estimated at over 1,000 in the Anderfels, several hundred in Orlais,around two dozen in Ferelden" (HELL, ONLY TWO DOZENS in Ferelden) Had he died at Denerim. The worst that makes is the whole world knows of the Blight and fight it, which probbably makes Hawke in same seat as Warden eventually. Face it, this is the the fifth blight. THE FOUR LAST ONES ended destroyed.
Warden DIDNT save the world from absolute destruction. He just help ends it BEFORE it becomes more serious. (Rem that a guy in Kirkwall bar actually think that there was no blight) -iamin7ove.
Hawke: I have a dwarven companion
Warden: So did I. I had a bisexual elf as a companion
Hawke: I had two
Warden: I had a golem as a companion
Hawke: I totally had a pirate skank that I totally nailed as a companion
Warden: Who didn't? Besides I had my wicked way with Flemeth's daughter
Hawke: I can swing my sword a lot better than you
Warden: Why don't we ask Isabella and see who can swings who's sword the best?
Hawke: That is not what I meant
Warden: Afraid of a little competition are we? Afraid Isabella will want a real man again?
Hawke: Your attempts to coerce me into reacting are not working
Warden: At least I have a Coercion skill
Hawke: Well I have a sexy beard
Warden: Your words hurt me (begins wailing like a baby)
Hey, actually all but Sebastian are bisexual o.o... Btw a living weapon covered in lyrium would be a better brag.
"Btw, whoever says Arishok is weaker than an orge should reflect on themselves. Rem that arishok is not just any quanri but one of the four big heads just like Hawke is not just any human but a champion. You can kill hudlock which is made from humans then Arishok can stomp orges."
Physically, the Arishok is weaker than an Ogre. Those things are at least four or five times bigger than a Qunari. However, you're probably right. Being the leader of the Qunari military, and given the fact that the Qunari practice eugenic breeding, the Arishok could very well be the strongest individual Qunari. Add to that his skill with those two big swords of his, and he certainly could best an Ogre by himself, or even two or more at once. So I retract my previous statement. But I still think killing a broodmother is more impressive.
PS - there are three 'heads' of the Qunari government not four. Hence then name Triumvirate. Arishok, Arigena, Ariqun.
- what a douche.
- Theron Mahariel (at his home in the Fade): So, Mr. Hawke, tell me how you got here.
- Garrett Hawke: Well, my friend Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.
- Theron Mahariel: Hmmm, sounds like something my wife Morrigan would do. Wait, Anders the Grey Warden mage? He's dead.
- Garrett Hawke: Yes, he is dead. I killed him after he destroyed the Chantry.
- Theron Mahariel: They must be two different people because the Anders I know died in battle 10 years ago.
- Garrett Hawke: Hmmm, weird. Hey, tell me about your wife.
- Theron Mahariel: Morrigan is really great. She used to be bitchy, but I softened her up. She's out training our son Dirthamen for a fight against her mother Flemeth the Witch of the Wilds. I killed Flemeth once, but she came back.
- Garrett Hawke: Oh my Maker.
- Theron Mahariel: What?
- Garrett Hawke: Oh, nothing. Would you like me to continue my tale?
- Theron Mahariel: Sure.
- Garrett Hawke: Well, I had to kill a crazy blood mage named Orsino and a crazy templar named Meredith that were causing trouble in the city. It was weird killing Orsino. I helped him quite a lot and then he turned on me.
- Theron Mahariel: You helped a blood mage? Oh, whatever. Continue.
- Garrett Hawke: Anyway, after killing the templar with help from several other people, I stereotypically walked off into the distance with my buddies, we separated, and now I'm here with you in the Fade. I had been traveling with my elf girlfriend Merrill for 2 years, but she was killed by a templar for using blood magic last year. I managed to escape and eventually found this eluvian, wanting to try and see her again. Hey, you're Dalish, aren't you?
- Theron Mahariel: Yeah, Merrill was a member of my clan before I was recruited into the Grey Wardens. I can't believe that she is dead and that she was a blood mage.
- Garrett Hawke: But she was trying to save your clan.
- Theron Mahariel: I defeated the Archdemon and gained Ferelden territory for the Dalish. Did they never get that message? What happened to my clan?
- Garrett Hawke: Well, they kind of went the way of the Tevinter Imperium. Only farther.
- Theron Mahariel: What do you mean?
- Garrett Hawke: They're dead. But don't worry about them, there's a global conflict going on outside the Fade that would probably have killed them anyway.
- Theron Mahariel: Global conflict?
- Garrett Hawke: Yeah, between mages and templars. Didn't I tell you that?
- Theron Mahariel: Not about the global war.
- Garrett Hawke: The thing in Kirkwall was really big. The Qunari invaded about 6 years ago and the Arishok killed the Viscount. I handed over my friend Isabela and the Qunari left. I was rewarded with the title of Champion of Kirkwall. The templars took over the city, though. The mages were subjugated further for the next 3 years. That's when Anders destroyed the Chantry, removing a peaceful solution. Meredith then invoked the Right of Annulment. Orsino and the mages rebelled. Like I said, I killed both Orsino and Meredith. I then left the city, explored the Free Marches for a few years with Merrill, she was killed, I traveled into the Fade, and now there's a global war. Did I do something wrong?
- Theron Mahariel: Yes! Why didn't you help anybody else, "Champion of Kirkwall"? Is that the only place you can help?
- Garrett Hawke: I wanted to travel to some other cities to try and stop some of the fighting. But I thought exploring with Merrill might be a lot more fun. Until she was killed.
- Theron Mahariel: You are the worst person I've ever met!
- Garrett Hawke: Geez, calm down. Your acting as if I revealed that I allowed Merrill to release Flemeth from an amulet or that I killed your clan.
- Theron Mahariel: WTF! I'm going to kill you. And then, I'm leaving the Fade with my son Dirthamen in order to clean up your mess.
- Garrett Hawke: Why would you kill me? I could help you.
- Theron Mahariel: It's too late. You had your chance. You're obviously incompetent or cowardly. I fought against the odds everyday for a year and never gave up.
- Garrett Hawke: You can't kill me, I'm a dual-wielding master. (jumps in for an attack)
- Theron Mahariel: So am I. (kills Hawke)
- Morrigan: Oh my, you've killed someone right in front of our son.
- Dirthamen: Father, you are quite the hellion today.
- Morrigan: What is the problem, love?
- Theron Mahariel: My love, we need to go to Thedas with Dirthamen in order to stop a conflict between mages and templars.
- Morrigan: Must we?
- Theron Mahariel: Flemeth will certainly take advantage of this opportunity. We must go.
- Morrigan: You're right. Let's go.
- Dirthamen: We're going to see grandmother? Take that, dire hag! All fear father's daggers of truthiness!
- ChomskyDisciple (talk) 23:03, April 22, 2011 (UTC)
Sandall Amell:Thank you for brightening this last week with your sarcastic comments about the Warden and Hawke,and also thanks to everyone who participated,but I think it is time to close this forum page because it was meant to be a sarcastic comment on the Dragon Age series,not a battlefield for DAII haters and DAII fans.
@at Sandal Amell
Ofc killing a brood mother is impressive but not in killing her but instead, to be able to reach her at all. In my opinion, brood mother is like Alien queen. They are the single most important but not actually that strong since their body is imbalanced and pretty much immobile.
Btw, thx for reminding me about how many quanri leaders there are. I must have confused with another tale. Additionally, it seems Arishok is actually the physically strongest qunari since he represents the body of the qunari while the other two are for soul and mind.
Also, i think people should stop comparing the two main characters in strength. I do agree that Warden's deeds are bigger than Hawke tho since he's way more straight to the point than Hawke who's mostly blown by the flow (can't blame him cuz he lives in peace time while Warden rolls around in battlefield no matter where he goes, literally). In strength, however, they are incomparable. The only way two heroes can ever be compared is when they fight each other or when they go for the same target and for the same reason. You know what, one winged archdemon, broodmother and high dragons are strong and all but Ancient Rock Wraith (he's about the only thing that is tough both physically and magically.) and a High dragon that commands an army of dragonlings is not any worse.(Remember that while archdemon with darkspawns is stronger than our high dragon, Warden got to fight it with an army while Hawke is stuck with only 4 individuals)
It's true that the Hero of Ferelden changed more in shorter time than the Champion of Kirkwall ever changed. Question stands what what did during the timeskips? It seems like Hawke did nothing between act 1 and 2, either between act 2 and 3.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 18:21, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
I may be the only one who likes Hawke better than the warden for multiple reasons.
1. Hawke is more memorable
2. Hawke start a war that will decide the fate of all mages and also the chantry
3. His/Her story is better (in my opinion)
4. She/He revived Flemeth >;)
5. Her/His story needed to be told, it couldn't just have been some codex entry
Don't get me wrong, I loved my warden but when it's between my warden and Hawke I have to pick Hawke.