I think I must have missed the point in DA:O. Why is it absolutely neccessary for Grey Warden to kill Archdemon? They say Archdemon will be reborn in some other darkspawn but what's so bad about it? He'd still be some lame hurloc, genlock whatever? We'd not end blight thats for sure, the darkspawn would keep comming but then, that helps dwarves...also it's better to fight them on open field than in deep roads so why not? People want to get rid of darkspawn while it's possible I thought, otherwise, once they find new dragon they attack again, with bigger numbers and new dragon, instead of keeping to fight humans without it, if it's slain by non warden? --Astenan (talk) 15:40, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
All darkspawn are dangerous creatures, and outnumber all human fighters significantly. For all we know they outnumber all humans in Thedas, and there are more humans than elves or dwarves. If the blight isn't ended, the darkspawn will not only slaughter everyone who lives on the surface, but spread the taint all over the land. This taint would kill hundreds or possibly thousands alone, and make the land unusable for years to come.
Thats assuming that the Archdemon can't shapeshift into a dragon, or perhaps even mutating. "Locking" an Archdemon into a Darkspawn's body, if that indeed is what happens, is far more dangerous than a large dragon. Why? You have a creature that is both highly intelligent, highly dangerous, is able to control darkspawn with its mind and its easier for it to hide. Now, going back to the shapeshifting, we know its possible for someone to shapeshift into a dragon, Flemeth does it, so it would be possible for the Archdemon to shapeshift into a form it is far more comfortable with. With the mutation aspect, its not so strange, as we see it with Blight tainted creatures, we see it with people possessed by demons, and with Broodmothers, a body can undergo drastic, uncontrollale changes in Thedas. All three options are likely. So why does a Grey Warden have to be the one to kill an Archdemon? Darkspawn are creatures made of the Blight, so the Archdemon will body surf into one, it being a soulless creature, and start anew. Grey Wardens make themselves into beings who are tainted by the Blight, and thus conduits for the Archdemon to possess. And there is the trick, Grey Wardens have a soul, and because the soul of the Archdemon and the Grey Warden cannot both possess the body, both are destroyed. If an ordinary person did it, the Archdemon just goes for another body. --Madasamadthing (talk) 16:00, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Because the point of fighting a defensive war is to let it rage on rather than end it asap. Sounds about right. And do you really think humans would let their citizens be killed, their villages and cities destroyed just so the dwarves got some help? Also, if I commanded an army (most likely outnumbered) I would think ten times before sending the forces out into an open field against a horde of savage beasts. Yammamoto69 (talk) 16:07, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Riordan answers this question: When slain by a non-warden the archdemons soul travels to the nearest tainted creature which historically has always been a darkspawn. The thing to understand here is that an archdemon has a soul, while darkspawn do not. This allows the archdemon to take over the darkspawns body and, in time, to remould it into the archdemon's true draconic form. This is only possible because a darkspawn has no soul. When a Grey warden slays the archdemon, it's soul once more passes into the nearest tainted creature: in this case the Grey Warden. Because the Grey Warden's body already has a soul there is no room for that of the archdemon and the two react badly, with the end result being that both souls are destroyed: utterly. Meaning the archdemon cannot rise again because it no longer exists. This is why the blight stops when an archdemon is slain- because the thing guiding it no longer exists. ----Isolationistmagi 18:54, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Astenan, the problem is that the Darkspawn aren't an opposing army. They will NOT meet you in the fields. They strike from shadows and sow chaos. They cannot be outmaneuvered and made to retreat. This is what Loghain didn't understand.
"The Blight" is so named because it is literally a disease that poisons the earth and kills ALL living things. Nothing grows on Blighted ground. The Taint can spread to all animals and people, mutating and driving mad the ones it does not outright kill. The Darkspawn are even more dangerous when commanded by an Archdemon, because it is truly intelligent, utterly vicious, and a living repository of foul magic bent on destruction. If an Archdemon is slain by any other than a Grey Warden, it is smart enough to go into hiding and recuperate its strength.
The Dwarves might see the Blight as a favor, because that eases pressure on the Deep Roads. But that is a fool's relief, because when the Darkspawn are done ravaging the topside world, where do you think they will go? They are not looking to settle on conquered lands. They will turn back to the Deep Roads, and stamp out the Dwarven race once and for all. Son Goharotto (talk) 19:34, June 9, 2012 (UTC)
Yes but are there any reasons like those you give spoken in some DA lore? This chance for Archdemon to mutate from some lesser darkspawn into something powerful? Also from tactical side, I meant it like this: We kill at lot of darkspawn now, we get less of them in the next blight, we get rid of Archdemon at once, next one should have more soldiers because they didnt suffer casualties last time, right? So it is only a temporary solution.
About darkspawn tactics, the way they've shown it in DA:O they were rather predictable. Ostagar, then Lothering, Denerim, their targets were rather obvious. In the Ferelden war, I can see that it was either kill Archdemon or lose Ferelden but in general, it was just one country when there was huge world out there that could "possibly" fight them. So perhaps, all those nations should really consider trying to wipe out darkspawn during some next blight? It should certainly be easier to fight in native to humans area - that is open fields, own castles, than deep roads, where it's always dark,gloomy and filled with all sort of predators, like huge spiders.
I just came up with some theory, you'll most likely find it crazy. What if the idea that Grey Wardens are neccessary is just a creation of someone powerful who wanted their order's existance to be justified for some reason? Like when Grey Warden loses his mind, he potentially becomes exteremely dangerous darkspawn? That somehow fit in with Architect's stuff. We don't even know what exactly happens when Grey Warden kills Archdemon, we know that ends blight but the spiritual part is somehow more of a religius superstition than something that can be proven. Perhaps Archdemon wants it to be that way, to die to the greatest hero of that age? --Astenan (talk) 00:44, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
Here is the lore that substantiates the Dragon's reincarnation cycle: Codex Entry: Archdemon. Spiritualistic stuff aside, it is pretty concrete that regular men killed the dragon Dumat and it came back, and that a warden killed it and it did not. That's all that matters.
The idea of keeping the archdeDumatmon alive to keep the darkspawn on the surface does not work because 1: fighting the blight on the surface only kills the darkspawn soldiers, while the broodmothers remain underground unharmed. 2: darkspawn win in wars of attrition because they taint the land they walk on, making it unuasable and injuring human efforts in the future, a thing that does not affect them in the slightest, so essentially the humans shall continually weaken while darkspawn remain as strong as ever. 3: Unless the darkspan are completely and utterly eradicated by the time the archdemon is killed, they will simpl come back ie after the fourth blight. ----Isolationistmagi 01:21, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
Also, on the surface the darkspawn get access to A LOT more ghouls and broodmothers then they would in the Deep Roads; this includes the blight wolves, bereskarn and corrupted spiders, all of whom are highly dangerous creatures superior to many common darkspawn. This becomes extremely dangerous when you take into accoun the fact that even genlocks and hurlocks are superior to at least low-level recruits: one of the reasons Ostagar was lost the minute darkspawn took the tower is because they had superior numbers AND superior combat skills (a genlock knows Berserk, Dirty Fighting, Deadly Strike and Rapid Shot; the best human soldier can muster is Aim, Shield Pummel and Precise Striking. Hurlocks are a bit weaker skill-wise but have more health and strength, while the alphas of both species are ostensibly the most powerful humanoid, non-magical lieutenants in the game.) 4Ferelden (talk) 02:05, June 10, 2012 (UTC) (talk) 02:01, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
Astenan, everything I mentioned comes right from the games; either discussed by the characters, mentioned in the background lore, or something you can see for yourself in the gameplay. The point of the Grey Wardens is to keep a Blight from getting out of hand, like the first one did. Fortunately, there were only seven Old Gods and thus only seven potential Archdemons. The Blight in DA:O was the fifth, so if the Wardens can hold the line for two more (or better yet, kill the Archdemons while they slumber and head off future Blights), then Thedas will be free of that particular threat forever. Darkspawn without Archdemons to lead them are much easier to handle. (At least they were, until thinking Darkspawn like the Architect came along.) Anyway, that's the point of the Grey Wardens. Son Goharotto (talk) 02:20, June 10, 2012 (UTC)
Son Goharott you make many valid point, and sorry that I'm just jumping in to this discussion now by the way. But as I see it, you have made one mistake. You assume that when the last archdemon is slain the blights will be over forever, and the darkspawn will stop being a treat, but we don't know that. We have no idea what will happen once the last archdemon is slain because "the song" that controls the darkspanwns comes from the archdemons. What if, what if killing the last archdemon ends the song, freeing all darkspawns everywhere?
All darkspawn are dangerous, but disciples especially so. As smart as a human, but as contagious as any other darkspawn. The death of the seventh archdemon can be the beginning of a neverending eight blight that like Skynet have no central processor, have no heart and brain that can be killed.
When a Grey warden kills an archdemon the soul of the old god will seek the taint of the nearest darknspawn and be reborn. The soul can either go into a normal darkspawn, or to the Grey warden. The difference is a Grey warden has a soul while a normal darkspawn does not. The soul of the old god can expand in a Darkspawn but both the soul and the Grey warden's soul will kill each other.
-rphb-: You forget one crucial detail. The Call of the Old Gods is like a very powerful drug to darkspawn, whose regular existence could be compared to being on a permanent heroin high, and thus they suffer from an extremely violent withdawal when its cut off. The only reason Architect was able to have any disciples is because he was powerful and experienced enough to subdue them before anything would go wrong. Without him to control the process, the darkspawn will simply go berserk and start killing each in the Deep Roads from sheer pain. Some 10% will inevitably survive the infighting, but at this point the dwarves, Grey Wardens, surface armies and golems (assuming the player had the foresight to obtain them) will come into play and wipe them out. Problem finally solved. 4Ferelden (talk) 09:10, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Or they rush to the surface and try to kill every thing.--Icemoomoo (talk) 11:23, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
Another thing to consider is this: without an archdemon, the darkspawn wander around the Deep Roads at most. The archdemon, however, unifies the darkspawn into a massive force that's a threat to not just the dwarves but to everyone. Killing the archdemon is essentially killing the general of the opposing army. - 19:24, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Hell, one could argue they're even more important than that. Kill a general, troops can still compartmentalize and function on a smaller scale. With Darkspawn, it's more akin to a "Queen Ant". If lost, the rest of the hive/group is worthless and unorganized. RomeoReject (talk) 06:11, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to say that what you said is a posibility, but also only a possibility, you don't know they will react like that, I don't know they would react as I predicted but It is a posibility, so unless there are some very strong reason for why "the song is like a heroin high" and that "the darkspawn will start killing its other without it" then I think it is best to assume the worst.
- The Archdemon is not like a queen ant. A queen ant lay eggs, they do nothing but lay eggs, but for darkspawn that is the broodmothers job, and there is never just one broodmother. No the archdemon is just like a general, and without a general to unite them, the darkspawn will be lead by "kaptains" (the most powerful alphas). Some of them may fight each other, but there is also the very strong posibility that they could join together to form a formidable army, and if the leader of that band is a particularly powerful hurlock or orgy that is cunning enogh to always remain in the middle of the horde, then stopping that blight would be next to impossible.-rphb- (talk) 10:12, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Orgy? I'd rather not see darkspawn do *anything* but die. :P EzzyD (talk) 15:12, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh god... Worst. Typo. Ever. Anyways, perhaps Queen Ant is the wrong term, but my point is that if you remove a General, you still have soldiers. They can still organize, co-ordinate, they still have their mental function, etc... With the Darkspawn, they are effectively "dumb" without the Archdemon. Without being led, Darkspawn aren't just leaderless, they're disorganized. RomeoReject (talk) 19:35, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
- But that is exactly my point, its the song that makes them so, but we saw what happens to a darkspawn that is "liberated" from the song. Imagine if all darkspawn everywhere became disciples, all darkspawn suddenly became NOT DUMB. How would they react if the last archdemon died and the song was suddenly silenced. -rphb- (talk) 08:41, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
-rphb-: The song is like a heroin high since darkspawn are known to get continuous pleasure from it and take its loss badly; most of the Disciples we meet in Awakening are allied to Mother, i.e. trying to get their song back. The Mother seems to talk a lot like a drug addict during violent withdrawal. Finally, it is powerful enough to numb pain, as all darkspawn have 5-7% spirit resistance and spirit damage is effectively strong pain, as proven by the Aura of Pain, Nightmare and soulrot bombs/coatings. Therefore, I would say that it is a lot like being high on drugs.
I'm not sure about the exact reaction of the darkspawn upon suddenly losing it, but I don't think they will all become like Disciples. Firstly, the loss of Calling from injecting the Grey Warden blood would be a gradual process, happening over the course of a couple of hours, like the Warden's Joining, which is quite different from the abrupt loss due to the Archdemon's death. This difference alone would probably be enough to cause some sort of immediate infighting between the 'spawn. Then, we don't know exactly if ALL darkspawn treated by the architect survive to become Disciples; we only see about 15-20 of them throughout the Awakening, and it is doubtful that they were the only ones Architect tried to work on. If the Architect's process ever failed, then plenty of darkspawn would die or degrade straight after the death of last Archdemon.
More importantly, the Disciples had the Architect to guide them and explain their situation, while post-Blight darkspawn would have no such benefit. This will almost certainly result in more infighting and general disorientation and breakdown of the horde, as each powerful alpha comes up with their own interpretation of the events, splitting the darkspawn into many tribe-like formations and allowing Wardens and other races to mop up the weaker ones.
Finally, the reaction could vary depending on the darkspawn subtype. How much is anyone's guess, but I would certainly be glad to see all ogres go extinct as the result of being incapable to handle the loss of the song. It could certainly go the other way, too but it doesn't seem very likely. 4Ferelden (talk) 09:56, June 14, 2012 (UTC)