Ok so after reaing through all of the lore of Dragon Age and replaying the games several times over I think I have a solid theory about what really happened to create the darkspawn.
To start, everything was created as the way it was sated, the maker made the fade, the veil, and the human/physical rhelm. Now here what I think really happened. A group of deamons who became jealous with the maker decided to turn away followers of the maker. Its generally belived the old gods themselves did this, yet another source claims that it was a voice(s) beyond the veil that did this. Next, the maker decided to cast the demons into the bodies of the old gods they made man worship, then cast them underground and turned his back on humanty, BUT he stayed in the golden city. The demons who could still roam the fade in their sleep attacked the golden city, killied or imprisoned the maker, then blakened it either delibertly or through their actions. Next they conviced the tevninter mages to attack the golden city knowing they would be tainted and brought unnder their control. This is why corphyus says that the blak city was already black when they got there. The mages became the drkspawn and the deamons clled to them to free them in the real world.In this theory the ceamon remaind in the now black city, which is why avernus says the black city calls to him in his dreams.
Now this is my interpretation of the events way before dragon age origins based on what is evident so far. I don't where this is goin but I do have a theory on that as well. Basically, Flemeth is some how connected to this. As is Kirkwall and the Templar-Mage War. Considering the tevinter tried to make the veil thin where kirkwall was, and the tevinter were being mislead by the archdeaoms, its possible they were trying bring the Black city into the real realm. The Templar Mage war, Anders destruction of the kirkwall chantry, and flemeths involvement with the champion of kirkwall would destabelize the veil further and tie these things togeather. The lore of dragon age is so immense that there is more to this. But for now this is it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk)
A few things: first, Corypheus does not definitively state that the Black City was already tainted when they arrived, simply that he and the other magisters were corrupted when they arrived. On top of that, Gaider stated that there was nothing special about Kirkwall beyond its location. All the conspiracy stuff implied by the Enigma of Kirkwall was never meant to amount to anything. Next, I don't see how demons could imprison or drive off the Maker, considering He is so much more powerful than they are, as to be able to imprison them in our world as per an early part of your idea. So you're either saying the Maker is all powerful or He is not. It can't be both. Rathian Warrior (talk) 23:27, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
You're too focused on what the Chantry says about all these things. All we know "definitively" is that a bunch of Tevinter Magisters sacrificed hundreds upon thousands of slaves to fuel their entry into fade. Somehow or for some reason they returned as the first darkspawn. Adding to Rathian Warrior's claim "Either the Maker is all powerful or he is not", why would you assume the Maker has anything to do with it, or if he even exists? And also "it's possible they're trying to bring the black city into the real world"????tell me how you came to that conclusion. (Kaiser Apple (talk) 03:01, May 15, 2012 (UTC))
I think that is a dump, one of the dumpest ideas of a darkspwan origin I have heard. If you want to involve the Maker in the story, as if he were an actual character, then the chantries own version works best, because at least they don't both and in the same time claim that he is all-powerful and not all-powerful.
Second, I have already, years ago come up with a better explanation.
- The Black City is Arlanthan, the elven capital. The eluvian mirrors were used by the ancient elves to travel throughout their empire.
- Arlanthan was erased from the face of Thedas doing the Tevinters final assult, either by their own design, or as a desperate attempt by the elves to save their city.
- The city ended up in an empty plane, a plane that in time became the fade. But the Fade was different from the physical plane, it is aphysical in nature.
- The Fade you see is a place of ideas. The complexty of the physical world cannot be sustained here, you forget who you were, and instead becomes your most prominent feature.
- For the Baroness from Awakening, that feature was pride. So she became a pride demon.
- My idea is basically, that all spirits were once living people. I am not saying that all people become spirits when they die, some people get true deaths, and some people may find a place beyond.
- But what makes the Black city speceial, is that it is the one thing in the Fade that is real, the one thing that is fully and truly a physical thing, and therefore cannot be converted to a basic idea, this class created the darkspawn. And the darkspawn actually existed in the Black city before the Tevinters got there, they just attacted the magisters who brought the plague back into the real world.
- Why would it turn up like that you may ask? Well remember that both the Arlanthans and the Tevinters were incredible magical, imagine what can happen if two extremely powerful spells, directed towards the same targets, go off at once.
- The result of this thesis is that it everything was man's fault (including metahumans), there were no need for divine intervention, or the intervention of a more melevolent charecter in the form of pre-existing demons.-rphb- (talk) 06:43, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
There is no need to be rude, serah.
As for the Arlathan = Black City theory, I do like it. I thought the eluvian in the Dalish Origin might have been a gateway to an old thaig that had been overrun by darkspawn, and the taint traveled through the eluvian to Tamlen and Mahariel, but your theory might also give that the eluvian was connected to the Black City itself. If so, the eluvian could be a gateway to the Black City if a future game revolves around curing the taint and cleansing the Black City once and for all.
But in your theory, how did it turn from the Golden City to the Black City? Exactly how were the darkspawn created? - I'd like some deeper analysis on that. [... an empty plane, a plane that in time became the fade] I'm not sure if I understand this. How was it an empty plane, and how did in time become the Fade? --SylvanLore (talk) 09:30, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Magisters created DS just as a rsult of their lust of power, that's sure. The City could be black, but Corypheus could be confused. Some people hav theory that old gods destroyd the golden city. I have my own - in primeval thaig was red lyrium and dwarves from there could even be mages. They could first enter the Golden city and corrupt it, because earlier they did something terrible. Those dwarves were met as rock wraiths. Sandal can be a deceasand of survivors, but he's too confused or stupid to remember this correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk)
Well my theory is based on the general hypothesis that everything that happens in Thedas are either the result of natural courses or directly or indirectly coursed by the people that live or once lived there.
That way, there is no need for a “Maker” and his exsistance can remain an open question even when we find out the truth behind the darkspawn.
Well the thing is, we know there were a great war between Tevinter and Arlanthan, and that Tevinter won, but Arlanthan “disappeared” It may have been disintegrated, it may have been sunk into a cave deep under the earth or it may have been transported “elsewhere”.
My idea that the fade did not exist prior to the arrival of Arlanthan, aka the black city, is that everything in the fade seems to circle around the city, it is central, quite literal; therefore its existence must either be prior to the fade or the nature of the nature of the fade changed drastically and fundamentally with its arrival.
The idea is, that the attack on arlanthan was so powerful, that it transformed the city into an idea (in platonic sense) it bended and broke the laws of reality and moved it to a place neither here nor there. Imagine an idea, getting physical form, a lot of stories deal with that, if we can think of that, then think of the opposite, a phyciscal form being reduced to an idea. But this is a contradiction of course, ideas always obit around what is real, always needs something substantial to fuel it.
There were elves inside Arlanthan when it became the black city and these elves were the true first darkspawn, and they were so because. Basically anyone that would ever enter the fade with their psychical body would enter it in its physical core, the black city and instantaneously be corrupted and become darkspawn
The city was never golden, or at least, it was only golden as long as it was Arlanthan existing on Thedas.
My basic point is that the impossibility of the conditions of the black city makes it naturally become a plague. But it also gives hope. If we can destroy the black city, if we can bring it out of the fade, back to Thedas, we would remove the imbalance that create demons and sustains demons, that create darkspawn.
I do not think that it would be the final end, unlike demons darkspawn doesn’t seem like they need to be sustained by an outside force to exist, but witouth the black city, there would be no “song”; meaning that all darkspawn everywhere would awaken, and become sapient, and then they wouldn’t be monsters anymore.-rphb- (talk) 01:11, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the Fade was "empty" before the attack on Arlathan. People dreamed. Those who entered Uthenera wandered the Fade and sometimes returned, with new knowledge. They used magic. The Tevinters learned blood magic and dealt with demons. All of this well before Arlathan disappeared. If the Fade circulates around the Black City, it might be serving as a weight on a rubbed cloth. (So the Fade was plain and stuff before, and when Arlathan/Golden City arrived it became the weight on the Fade's rubber cloth, and everything in the Fade started to circulate around it - like water vortexing down a drain.) But I do not think everything in the Fade came to be when Arlathan disappeared. --SylvanLore (talk) 10:05, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
And I didn't defidently say that it did either, I just said that if there was a fade before the black city it would be fundementally different.
However, why would you need the fade, why would you need demons, to learn something like bloodmagic, or to simply dream? Bloodmagic could come into existence the same way most technology in our world comes into existence, with experiments and trial and error.-rphb- (talk) 22:39, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
I like the idea that arlathan is the black city. Maybe the elves tried to escape the humans by escaping into the fade, maybe inspired by the "long sleep". Later on the tevinters try to enter it and become darkspawn, maybe not even realizing what the golden city really was, maybe even triggering some sort of trap. The rise of the chantry happened after thr fall of arlathan, so thier religion could have been built around the existance of the city, something they didn't understand, so they called it the seat of the maker (like the greeks not knowing what the sun was so calling it the god apollo). At the time the chantry was made, they were fighting against the tevintirs. Claiming that they "tainted" the maker's golden city would have also convinced people to join their cause.--Nemesis1807 (talk) 11:44, May 17, 2012 (UTC)nemesis1807
- Well yes, there are many posiblities of how the black city and the darkspawn are connected, we know they are connected. "The Tevinters tried to enter the city and then got corrupted. Beyond that a lot of things could happen. I don't think it is a trap though. The darkspawn seems to powerful to be the result of a trap. I think it has something to do with a psycical body entering the fade, at least it has to be coursed by something both unique and powerful.
- I think that in their contects it is obvious to call the black city "the seat of the Maker" I mean, it is a place that everyone that enters the fade can see, it is always in the centre of it, and you can't seem to get there no matter what you try.
- You need to put your deity in a place where you can't go, because if you can, then someone will go there and find out that there is no god there
- A little correction though. Apollo wasn't the sun, he was the sun god, just like Thor (from Norse mythology) was the god of thunder. Helios was the personification of the sun. He was also god of a lot of other things, like god of the jocks (and jerks). Just read the first chapter of the Iliad and you will see what a big jerk he is.-rphb- (talk) 14:13, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
First I would like to say that in my theory I assume that the Maker exists.
In the first paragraph of this discussion someone said that spirits attacked the Golden City and imprisoned the Maker. What if the spirits that attacked the Golden City were the Old Gods? My theory is that the Old Gods attacked the Golden City and it became the Black City. When the Tevinter Magisers entered the Black City (which used to be the Golden City) they were corrupted by magical "fallout" left by the Old Gods when they attacked the city. Since the Magisters were corrupted by the Old Gods' magic it makes sense that the Old Gods can become Archdemons and control the darkspawn.
Arlathan was transported to the "place beyond the Fade" that Morrigan mentions in Witch Hunt when it was attacked by Tevinter. Since the Eluvians could be used to communicate with Arlathan it stands to reason that Morrigan's portal would lead to Arlathan (which is now beyond the Fade).--CouslandRogue (talk) 04:47, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
- That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. The Maker cannot in the same time both be all powerful and not all powerful. Even ignoring that, is an unnecessary complex theory. In science the simplest explanation is usually the best explanation. there is no reason to explain a certain event as the result of ghost, if it can be explained just as easily as a result of wind.
- There are two theories about the darkspwan:
- 1)one assumes like you do that the Maker exist, and there the Chantry's official explanation is the best one, as it doesn't unnecessarily complicate things,
- 2) the other tries to find a logical non mythical explenation for the darkspawn that does not need to include a deity, and here my theory is the best.
- If you want to challange either of these theories come with a better explanation, one that can explain more events in a better way then the existing, not a worse theory. If I have a theory that lightning is made by electrically charges up in the atmosphere and you have a theory that it is made by magical pixies jumping on clouds, my theory would win everywhere outside the insane asylum, unless you were able to actually capture one of these pixies and demonstrate how it produces lightning. -rphb- (talk) 09:52, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
I think the Maker for now is really left up to the player. Its kinda left unproven one way or another, simply to add to the story. Maker/Chantry mirrors ALOT of Christian concepts, and even those are all a matter of faith. One which I don't think the writers are in an all to much of hurry to let the gamers know one way or the other.
As far as the Golden City/Black City ... I don't see a reason to disagree with Chantry retoric. Its been 1300 hundred years since the first blight, which would then be 1300 years since the Tavinter Mages entered the blight, attempted to get to the Golden City. Wether it was some sin, the maker, or just simply the fade itself reacting to physical solid beings trying to get to the heart of it. The mages were corrupted, and the fade itself was fundamentally changed. There was a change in the fade the moment the mages entered the city, simply because it either wasn't visiable originally, or it was visably Golden, as Corypheus's ramblings suggest that when they got there it was a shock and suprise and he felt decieved. Yet now as it is mention in DA1, the Black City is now always visiable, but always far away at any point in the fade.
As to what the Arch-Demons are is alot harder. 1. They have been identified after death as 5 of the Seven old Gods. As to exactly what these old Gods are we are left guess, not to mention if there is only to more of them. 2. Are they corrupted by the blight, by the corruption of the Black city? They are directly connected to the Blight. And idea I had was that they were some of the original spirits from the fade, who possessed dragons. Perhaps some of the original abominations, perhaps the enter attempt to enter the Golden City was them trying to return to the fade. (Pure speculation here) 3. While elves dont draw distiniction between Spirits, they do have their own pantheon. Elves have lost the ability to talk to the Gods, but they still dream about the "Forgotten Ones." My own theory, is that the Fogotten Ones, are the same as the Old Gods. Some kinda of Spirit, that was tricked and imprisoned. (Which would explain why the Old Gods are trapped deep underground.) 4. Flemeth is an interesting thing. She is probably the oldest living being that we know about. Like Arch-Demons she isn't as easily killed, as she can simply take over another body. Perhaps even a corpse (which is why she is needed to go to an elven burial ground) and twist it into her former shape. Much the same way, Arch-Demons are able to do when they are not killed by a Grey Warden. (They simply jump to another Dark Spawn... and theorizing that that dark spawn is able to be able to suddenly become another Dragon looking creature) Perhaps Flemeth is the Dread Wolf, perhaps the Dread Wolf is was the Chantry assumes to be the Maker, or perhaps Flemeth is a trapped Elven God, trying to accomplish something in her own way. Regardless Flemeth is atleast similar in nature as to whatever the Arch-Demons are. 5. Lastly how Dwarves connect to this unknown. They again have their own religion, they can;t use magic normally, but then their is Sandal, who is unique. But entirely unknown other than his talent at slaughtering darkspawn when no one is looking, and making enchantments. --Denthris (talk) 10:32, June 24, 2012 (UTC)