In my opinion Tevinter is an evil empire. They have legal slavery, who are treated like pets or lab rats on bloody rituals. They first destroyed elven culture and land, they enslaved them and because of their lust of power the 1st blight began. I hate magisters because of slavery and Blight the most. Caladrius, Devera, Hadriana, Danarius, Tevinter slaver and Varania are perfect example of corruption and scums from that cursed land. I even imagine in DA3 my protagonist as an elven rebel, who slaughters magisters, ruins the Imperium and ends slavery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.142.3 (talk) 19:16, April 24, 2012

You want your protagonist to be Fenris then? :P EzzyD (talk) 19:43, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Fenris would be my ally, but he in 3rd act looks like someone who wants to abandon his past after discovering it. Even men of vendetta like him need rest. I want my protagonist to be like Fenris, but unlike him with charisma, strategist and leadership skills. Elf or human, just a slave revolutionist in Imperium, who brutally slaughters magisters for their evils like slavery, blood sacrifaces and blights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.142.3 (talk) 20:00, April 24, 2012

Or better yet, poster; you could be a renegade mage who can't stand the injustice anymore and rises up against the evil even though you're standing alone. With the aid of fellow sympathizers and the Qunari, the protagonist help bring down the Tevinter Imperium, ending with the slaying of the Black Divine and possible a way to stop future Blights as well as a reasonable end to the Mage-Templar war by giving the Mages a safe, secure place to live in peace away from the Chantry.--Sjelen Kain (talk) 20:39, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I want something similar :D, only my safe place would be made for the Elves. EzzyD (talk) 20:52, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

You're looking for Arlathan then. :p Though it would be fitting if elves ruled the Imperium....taking over the Empire that destroyed them in the first place and made them fall from grace.....hmm....I rather like that idea. *Calls Bioware* --Sjelen Kain (talk) 20:57, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

If only one thing has been consistent across all iterations of the Dragon Age franchise, it's that Tevinter has been portrayed as a corrupt empire of blood mages and slavers. The revelation of Corypheus has only served to cement that idea that Tevinter is pretty much the original of all evil. With all that in mind, I think it's pretty safe to say that the players will be given a chance to take direct action against the empire at some point in the future. Son Goharotto (talk) 21:21, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I would rather destroy the chantry Blighter (talk) 21:56, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

OH MY GOD! Yes! Destroy the Chantry with bolts of fire and lightning and death. I would raze Val Royeaux to the ground before I was done. I would put the Darkspawn to shame with the amount of destruction I would wreak on those pitiful shems. :D EzzyD (talk) 22:00, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

And I would rather destroy Tevinter, I see the chantry as a lesser evil. I hate Imperials more than Orlesians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.13.131 (talk)

I would rather see the Tevinter Imperium for myself before condemnng it to destruction. That, and have a view of the history that isn't plagued by chantry and elven propaganda. Sure all (2? 3?) of the magisters we meet deserve to die, and the same applies to most of the ones referenced in the current lore, but we have to remember that it is incredibly biased lore. We should not condemn the entire nation for the actions of the extremists whom history remembers without even looking to see if there is another side to the story. ----Isolationistmagi 22:22, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

C'mon, Tevinter magisters are pretty cool guys. Paying that smug Maker a visit was a nice touch. Otherwise, the world would be too boring:) -Algol- (talk) 22:26, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Caladrius seemed like a pretty normal Magister to me; not very extremist I mean. Heh, I'm not sure I'd call it "elven propaganda" if it's true. Even if it were not, the Tevinters have given them very few reasons to say anything nice about the Imperium. EzzyD (talk) 22:29, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

To be really serious, if it wasn't for slavery and conflicts with the elves, I would have supported the Imperium wholeheartedly. They don't care about the Chantry bs, they keep assorted Templar psychos in check, and they act as a bullwark against hornhead idiots from the South. Hell, some Archons even wanted to abolish slavery. Oh, and they use blood magic with their civilization functioning normally for ages. Proving again, that Chantry bs is so bs-y.-Algol- (talk) 22:38, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

True, though I have a wary attitude to both Tevinter and Chantry. They're not to be trusted fully, regardless of their aims. I like the way they keep their Templars on a leash of their own (I hate the hypocritical buggers :D) Also, I agree about Blood Magic; it's not inherently evil just as all magic is, and truth be told the fact that blood magic can be used to influence people only makes it slightly more dangerous than say Primal magic (where a person could summon a pillar of fire to annihilate all opposition) Functioning is a very good qualifier :P as it implies they have YET to fall apart. EzzyD (talk) 15:31, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I fail to see why all nations in Thedas have to be goody-goody. Roman Empire was pretty corrupt too, but it was a pretty cool place. And tbh, if Andraste had been defeated, she would have been forgotten or, if lucky, the barbarian harlot bitch. History is written by victors, there is no good guy in wars. - 22:31, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

hear, hear! easily-overlooked factor in seeking 'realism'. Yeti magi (talk) 23:36, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

I would imagine that any and all countries and city states are pretty cool places as long as you are at the Top Of The Food Chain. Throughout mans own recorded history there have many nations and empires, that where cruel places to be unless you where one of the ones at the Top of the Food Chain. I do not like the whole Chantry Idea in the Game it is to much like the Catholic Religion of the years between 1050 AD and today. If Bio Ware was going to use a lot of the ideas of the game based on Dungeons and Dragons then they should have given their Clerics and Priest Holy Powers from the "Maker". Personally I like the whole Roman Empire and also the Barbarians of the Norse Kingdoms.--Charlie.look (talk) 23:33, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

If priest were given holy power from the Maker, that would ruin the entire point of the ambiguity of DA's lore. Even a Templar's "holy" power is based in a quintifiable and defenitive source. Lyrium. Bioware has created a religon that very few other game creators ever do one founded on faith. There is very little evidence that the Maker exsits as he is presented by the Chantry.CrowInvictus (talk) 01:05, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

It's about Tevinter, not the Chantry. How many times do I have to remind it? And stop with ifs.

Well, listen, lore of the Dragon Age is almost 100% taken from real time history and myths. Only few things are made up. I mean, look how they named Grey Warden Capitol base. Weisshaupt fortress! Weisshaupt, the founder of Illuminati. Qun reminds me of India and it's caste system. Dwarven caste system is a bit differently presented. But so far, both in books and in games we heard about both good and bad sides of Thedas countries. Of Tevinter, we've only heard bad things. Nobody said 1 good thing about Tevinter. They themselves don't even bother explaining themselves and their motives to others. Tevinters of Dragon Age stil act like Tevinters of old, before the Blight. Like they are entitled to everything and answer to no one. So far, I agree that they need to be put down like rabid dogs. They need to be exterminated. Without mercy.--Markurion (talk) 02:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think they have different morals, to be honest. I mean, cheating is bad in this society but it's not in Thedas; I don't think the Tevinters really think slavery is evil (there has been many civilisations in which slavery was an accepted thing). Taking slaves from other countries is quite another, but most nations don't enslave their own people...

Recalling the magocracy in Thay, where magic is the only moral code, I just don't think we should go "you infidels! Burn!" and destroy them. I'm the "do in Rome as Romans do" kind of person. As for the argument "what if you were a slave in Tevinter?", well, I wouldn't want to be an elf in the alienage either, and I certainly won't want to be Nelaros (or many instances in which the Day of Celebration have occurred around Thedas). No offence to Fenris, but if I were Danarius (and I'm not, don't misread me as some people are wont to do and jump to conclusions that I'm the second coming of Corypheus), and I spent lots of gold buying an elf, and then I spent even more gold getting the elf useful tattoos, and then that elf said "go to hell" and ran off, I'd be angry too. And if my neighbour decided that goldfish looks pretty tasty so he fried his pet goldfish and ate it, I might be weirded out but I certainly won't call the police or crash his house (I am well aware that Fenris is not a goldfish and elves are not pets but sentient beings, but a Tevinter might not think so). So when you march up to their doors and torch them and destroy them, they might be completely confused as to why you're doing this and maybe even curse you for being evil. And then the ragtag leftovers of Tevinter, now desperate and p!ssed off, will use some weird blood magic and wage war, plunging the continent into a war...

Hm, this sounds familiar. It sounds like Mage-Templar War. - 03:06, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Markurion:Nobody has said one good thing about the Dalish before your character has visited them either, so I would much rather pay them a visit before initiating extermination. It (the extermination) is still likely to be the best option regarding magisters, just like it is the best solution when dealing with the Andraste's cult (I thought long and hard about sneaking past everyone sans Kolgrim, but why bother if they will just find another demon to worship and continue sacrificing people?). I don't think we should be quite as acceptant of their conduct as - seems to suggest, but some kind of consideration should be present. Anyway, the Tevinter survived several Exalted Marches (in comparison, one was enough to permanently destroy the Dales) AND the Qunari invasions, so your Warden/Hawke/future instances character isn't going to seriously endanger them.

Regarding relations between DA lore and real-life medieval, the Tevinter would then have to be the centre of culture, education and technological development, if the parallels with real-life Rome/Byzantine are true. Regarding dwarves, I would say they're a hybrid, with the caste system the same as in India (Casteless= untouchables) but their political system is most similar to 16th-17th century Poland than anything else, with kings elected by the council of nobles in an inefficient and error-prone system. Their names are further proof to this - Wojech Ivo, Endrin Aeducan, Piotin Aeducan,Beraht - all actual or modified Polish names. 4Ferelden (talk) 03:20, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Really, any judgment we reach about Tevinter is problematic, for reasons given above: the Magisters keep slaves, enslave people from other countries illegally, keep all power for themselves, and do blood magic (which, while it is not inherently evil on its own despite Chantry propoganda, is so ripe for abuse that there's no way that you could make any 10 people and not expect at least one to be tempted to abuse it). Despite this though, just about every country in Thedas has been heavily influenced by Tevinter due to being under its control for centuries and basically tries to become the next Tevinter. They've kept the Qunari threat in check for centuries, which is a big part of why the rest of Thedas can afford to act like they don't exist. Plus, just about everything we hear about Tevinter comes from very biased sources (Chantry scholars, Fenris, etc), so we have no way of knowing exactly how corrupt the magisters are. In fact, it's entirely possible that at least some of the magisters only resort to blood magic and keeping slaves to survive the cutthroat politics of the magisters, which would explain some magisters taking power to try to abolish slavery. And even if the magisters are every bit the puppy-kicking bastards they appear to be, that doesn't mean the country should be destroyed, or conquered, or whatever, since - and this is the most important part - the common people and slaves would probably suffer just as much, if not more, depending on who was doing it and who took over in the absence of the magisters. --UrLeingod (talk) 03:42, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I like to remember how Tevinter and their vast knowledge of magic is the only place that could allow Feynriel to live a normal life, what with his incredible natural talent, so that he could actually accomplish good in the world. It is one of the very few regions that are outside of the overbearing Chantry control, and it is one of the places I would most enjoy visiting in a game, not destroying.

(Oh, and if one of the arguments for destroying Tevinter is that they're the big bad guys for demolishing the first Elven homeland, well, the Chantry are the ones who destroyed the Dales when they refused to submit to their religion. The Chantry seem more like tyrants to me than the Tevinter currently do, what with all those references to Exalted Marches and everything. Good thing their Divine isn't a complete moron, but that won't help much in the Mage-Templar War.) TheodoricEichen (talk) 05:04, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget who destroyed the elven land First. The chantry doesn't allow for bloody scarifacial rituals, they didn't enter the fade because of lust for power or created darkspawns, who destroyed the world. I hate Tevinter more than The chantry, the latter is seen by me as a smaller evil. Besides The topic is about Tevinter, not chantry.

---

For the record, the life of a Tevinter slave and an Orlesian pesant have very few differnces, most of them purely technical. Ask Liselle in Denerim market. Yet Orlais is portrayed as "cultural and enlighened", while Tevinter is a "cradle of evil". I call bs on that one. -Algol- (talk) 09:56, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

@4Ferelden, India caste system is actually more related to Qunari. Merchant in India feels no desire to become anything more than that, just like the Qun describes, while Dwarves constantly strive to enter the higher caste. Maybe I misinterpreted this. I'm not from India after all.

But, regarding Dalish. It is mentioned. You can talk with many people outside of Brecilian forest who will tell you about elves and how Chantry destroyed them mercilessly. Leliana can tell you about Arlathan and Dales and how Shartan joined Andraste in bringing down Tevinter Imperium. There are many indications that Elves were wronged in the past. Even before you go to the Brecilian forest or talk to the actual elves. Plus, you have City Elf Origin, which is, in my opinion second strongest Origin written. Throughout the game, you can find out that the Elves never started a war. It was always brought upon them. Unlike Tevinters who( even after destruction of Imperium, and invasion of Qunari who are,despite their philosophy, much more intelligent and wiser than those magnificent magisters) still ruthless and conniving and evil and feel no regret for anything they did. So far. and I put accent on this , SO FAR, we have been shown nothing that would make us feel any sympathy for Tevinters. Even Tevinter slaves fight among themselves for power. It's Hell!--Markurion (talk) 17:22, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I prefer the Tevinter any day than a chantry or elven scum. --87.93.220.134 (talk) 18:51, April 25, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

You're a racist scum and the topic isn't about Chantry, but Tevinter, so stop saying that mage-tempalr war propagadna. There is no biased opinion about Tevinter, the magisters are evil. DON'T Say anything about the chantry, because it's not the topic. If you're gonna discuis about the priests, then Join Mages and templars discussion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.142.3 (talk) 22:06, April 25, 2012

A reminder to keep things civil if you don't mind. ----Isolationistmagi 21:17, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

First of all, please relax. Secondly, the reason the Chantry and the Elves are mentioned in the counter-arguments is because most of the people saying that the Tevinters are evil use both of these factions in their arguments. Thus, for these anti-Tevinter arguments to be countered, it's necessary to make reference to them again. (Which leads to quite an obvious double standard where people like you seem to not mind the Chantry and elf references, as long as they're only used by your side of the debate and not the other, but what can one do.) And the Tevinters' history is very closely linked with that of both the Chantry and the Elves, so of course any discussion including one will have references to the others. Anyways, I think I've made my point, I'll shut up now. TheodoricEichen (talk) 20:16, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I just have enough of those templar haters, who say Chantry is worse, just because they supported mages in DA2 and find elves as an excuse. I made a new topic to stop m-t topic, which leads nowhere.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.142.3 (talk) 22:56, April 25, 2012

Your opinion saddens me. :( EzzyD (talk) 19:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Two problems with Tevinter falling. One, when it does, The Guardian disappears. Thus no one left to guard Andraste's ashes (reliably). Numba 2, who will you have to fight after Tevinter falls? The qunari. Right now Tevinter is the only nation holding the qunari back. I say let Tevinter stand, but work toward their culture changing and becoming more like Fereldan. Let them transform into a force of good rather than fall completely. Or, if they stay evil, support the ongoing Tevinter/Qunari war until they obliterate each other. Believe it! (talk) 21:48, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

"Thus no one left to guard Andraste's ashes (reliably)" - you mean the already dead Guardian, who couldn't stop the ashes from being defiled?-Algol- (talk) 22:42, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

But... but... Defiling the Ashes is blasphemy! :P Nah, it's fine. Go for it, desecrate that woman's remains! EzzyD (talk) 22:47, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

He couldn't stop the Warden, but he could stop most shmucks, like Kolgrim and Co. If you killed him then fine, that only leaves one reason. Believe it! (talk) 23:34, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

@EzzyD One thing lingers... I can't remember what was the exact type of bodily fluid I poured into the urn XD -Algol- (talk) 01:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

@Believe it! ( or not! Sorry couldn't help it :P) I doubt Tevinters can be re-civilized. Chantry is trying that for a millennium, and still, Tevinters would desecrate Golden City AGAIN, if allowed. (According to that faggot Fenris). And I still can't figure out my own feelings about the Qun. I respect them immensely, but I don't agree with some teachings. If we were given opportunity to support either Qunari or Tevinters in future games, I'd probably support Qunari, butyou know what would be even more awesome? To be a world-changing lunatic like Shepard, and try and change the Qun itself. Now THAT would be something i'd die to see.:D--Markurion (talk) 00:20, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I thought of that too. My primary Warden is King of Fereldan and he respects the Qun except for the parts about forced conversion and conquest. I think if you rewrote those parts to promote willing belief instead, then that's pretty much all you would need to do. I guess the part about being born to do a specific thing is kind of dumb. People should be willing to try other professions. I would have no problem rewriting the Qun. It's not like it's a religious book after all. More like a self-help book. Believe it! (talk) 01:08, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

There is only 1 thing a Qunari is afraid of, and that's uncertainty. They think the World would be flawless if all the folks would do the jobs that tamassrans gave them on birth. But it's not so. There is no lasting satisfaction in perfection. This is somewhat a similar situation like in Mass Effect. Reapers stand for Order, while organics stand for Chaos. Same here. Qunari stand for Order, other Thedas races stand for Chaos. Removing the differences between races and civilizations and the people themselves wont fix anything. Chaos and Order cannot prevail one over the other. They can only be in Balance. Which Qun doesn't seem to understand. OK! Enough of my wise words. --Markurion (talk) 02:11, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

On the information that we're given, Tevinter is a bit evil, though you can't truly tell without having visited it. I personally like the Qunari and most parts of the Qun (a la @Believe it!). However, the argument that Tevinter is holding back the Qunari... they're certainly distracting and weakening them. But I believe it was Fenris who said something along the lines of "The Qunari once fought all of the nations of Thedas to a standstill. If they wanted to, they could crush Tevinter." I think that Tevinter still exists because the Qunari allow it to, I don't believe that Tevinter is justified for holding them back because if the Qunari truly invaded Tevinter probably wouldn't stand a chance. Moses Killwind (talk) 03:25, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Tevinter may be evil but at least they're not the Qunari. And you know the only thing that's holding them back? Tevinter. For all their wickedness (and I agree the magisters are evil) They are all incredibly powerful mages, magic is the one thing the Qunari can't fight effectively. Also, you forgot about the legacy of the Tevinter Empire. Roads, towns, and cities were built around the infastructure left over when Tevinter recided. Besides, as far Tevinter goes, we've only seen two castes of people: magisters and slaves. That's like saying everyone in Ferelden is a either dirt-poor serf or a arrogant noble, and we know that's not true. I think Teveinter needs to stand, if only to hold back the Qunari rom wreaking havoc. 19:54 April 26, 2012 (UTC)

(the above isn't me)

Qunari don't wreak havoc. They do not destroy. They improve. In their eyes. And the guy above the above just said that Tevinters are NOT the thing that's keeping Qunari at bay. They could crush Tevinter whenever they wanted to. They way I see it, the only way to truly defeat the Qunari is to be better than them. Beat them without the magic, cause they have no respect for magic. They respect might and natural strength. Beat them in standard fashion and you may happen to break the Qun itself. And Tevinters have no place in such a conflict.--Markurion (talk) 05:29, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Qunari may not respect magic, but a Qunari elite can separate a skilled mage vs an "untrustworthy" serebas. Just ask Sten or the Arishok. Sten followed a possible mage Warden to Hell and back, and the Arishok met a possible unchained mage in personal combat because he had so much respect for them. OneDeadTemplar (talk) 23:55, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

They oxmen are better than Tevinter, because they don't lie, they don't hide thier agressive intentions and they aren't racists like humans. But they do very strange things like gender classification not by body but skills, that's ridiculous. They have their philosphy, but they like every other nation slay every bit of free will and doubt. The qunari also like Imperial and Orlesian Chantry are culture destroyers. Elves are dying race and they abanon their culture for Chantry and the Qun, the letter are less elves than the former. Tallis was an example of brainwash. I see qunari as nothing but another treat. Arishok slayed half of Kirkwall for his Koran, I killed him to show Qunari that NOONE ca nbe unpunished, even such arrogant ones like them. I caould respect Sten, but after battle in Kirkwall I wanted Arishok to defeat and show qunari that "bas' aren't weak as they see them.

---

@Markurion I profoundly disagree. "They could crush Tevinter whenever they wanted to" - citation sorely needed. Because the lore states, that qunari had their asses handed to them in all, but one, decicive battles. The lore also states, that they are unable to win a territorial war over one island, Seheron, against the "crumbling" Tevinter.

Next. "the only way to truly defeat the Qunari is to be better than them" - It is hard NOT to be better, then them. Especially looking at their last Arishok, who was an incompetent imbecile. Because leading an army of brainwashed soldiers to find one relatively small item... Gosh, how that could possibly go wrong? Does the world "subtlety" meant anything to him?

Next. "Beat them without the magic, cause they have no respect for magic" - again, incompetent imbeciles. if they value skill so much, why don't they train their mages appropriately, and have respect for magic? But I digress, who the f*ck cares as to what they respect, and what they don't? Victory is still victory.

All in all, one good way to break the Qun was Hawke or Isabela publically burning the Tome of Koslun for the lulz. I seriously doubt, that they have copies. Otherwise, they wouldn't make such a fuss over it, being described as "practical". Imagine the reaction: oh teh noes, our Qun is no more, boo hoo. Because relying on a SINGLE book of fairy tales to govern ALL aspects of your life... As I've said: incompetent imbeciles. What I can't comprehend, is why people overidealize them so much?-Algol- (talk) 13:20, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

One more thing... Tevinter vs Qunari. Summoning a small rage demon in the middle of a gunpowder storage... Mmmm, I expect nice fireworks. Anders would be proud.-Algol- (talk) 13:29, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

In regards to the Qunari dilema: According to what we know of the war between the whole of Thedas and the Qunari in the Storm(?) Age, the Qunari succeeded in taking over much of Northern Thedas, with Minrathos being the sole exception. They actually advanced all the way to the Free Marches. As I recall, they were eventually pushed back into Rivain and Antiva, but weathered repeated Exalted Marches without fail, only leaving because they were distraught over civilian casualties. They signed a peace treaty with Thedas, excluding Tevinter, and pulled off of mainland Thedas, excluding Kont-Arr, which they remain in semi-illegally. They continue to fight with Tevinter in small-scale skirmishes on Seheron, but have not seriously brought any sort of military might to bear in centuries. I'm willing to bet that if they wanted to take over Tevinter again, they would give the magisters a run for their money. Rathian Warrior (talk) 13:56, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

To anon that responded on my last post: That's exactly what I'm talking about. Hawke kicked Arishok's ass in front of his own soldiers and many others. Arishok, who is (should be) the best warrior on the battlefield. He was brought to justice despite everything. They all are arrogant assholes that need to be put in proper place once in a while.

Algol, my friend, what you are describing is a bad writing. No way the Arishok that Sten praised in DAO would sit on his butt for 7 years and pretend to look for the thief who also sat on her ass for 7 years, not moving anywhere. The Arishok and Qunari described in DA2 are plain idiots and morons in my opinion. As they are in yours obviously.

And I do agree that Qunari need to pay more attention to the magic. If it's a part of the world they live in (As Sten himself said), than they should learn to live with it, not act like they do now. That was the most irritating part of the Qun that bothered me. If you are so good at finding place for all things in the world, why can't you find proper place for mages? In that matter,Qunari are no different than jerks in Chantry, who either run away from or destroy everything and anything they cannot understand.

Tevinters should be treated in opposite manner than Qunari.Giants need to be broken, Tevinters need to be straightened up. They are slimy and terrible. Wouldn't ask one to be my bestman at wedding if the God himself told me to. And if the cream of Tevinter society, the magisters, and the bottom, the slaves, both fight for power and would betray their own families any day, why would middle class in Tevinter be different? Compared to them, Marjolaine seems like a lovely mentor and a friend. --Markurion (talk) 19:08, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

They did find a place for mages in the world, at the end of a leash with their tongues cut out. Why? Because of what happened at the Circle Tower. The qunari in DAO and DA2 are pretty much on the same level as anyone else, skill wise, but I think the reason they are feared is because they have greater strength in numbers and because they have superior war technology. Believe it! (talk) 19:44, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Its implied elsewhere, the Codex I think, that in fact the Qunari have fewer numbers. It was the superior Chantry numbers combined with the Circle's magic that drove the Qunari back, as they were technologically savvy but unprepared for the sheer power unleashed against them. EzzyD (talk) 19:46, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Half-naked qunari with spears in DA2 certainly gave the exact impression of being "technologically savvy":) -Algol- (talk) 23:32, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ezzy, that's true to a certain extent. The Qunari on Par Vollen were an advance colonization force, who have since lost contact with their mother nation. On top of that, they were fighting the combined might of the entire nations of Thedas, so of course they would be at a numerical disadvantage. But as I said already, once they got their wits about them, they couldn't be budged out of Antiva and Rivain, only leaving because of civilian casualties. So they are at least able to fight Thedas to a standstill in a drawn out campaign, which sort of precludes the idea of Tevinter winning against them in a one-on-one fight. Granted, Tevinter also went it alone against Thedas right after the Qunari did, but it's also important to remember that even Thedas plus Tevinter couldn't outright defeat the Qunari. In fact, according to the codex, the Qunari did succeed in conquering Seheron from Tevinter after the Llomerryn treaty which ended their war with the rest of Thedas, and it was only a full-fledged invasion from Tevinter that managed to bring the island back into contention. I believe that if the Qunari were to bring their full strength to bear against Tevinter, we would see a repeat of the original invasion: Minrathos under siege with the rest of the country abandoned, followed by an Exalted March being declared by the Divine. That is, if she can get her Templars back under control :3 Rathian Warrior (talk) 00:00, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Rath. That would be something to see; terrifying but immensely awesome. :D EzzyD (talk) 14:49, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Tivinters keep the Qunari busy, and vice versa. I do not want either to be removed if there isn't a clear way to handle the other.--58.106.167.45 (talk) 03:14, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in this world is ever simple, my friend. Wouldn't be surprised to see Qunari invasion now with mage/templar war going on. Thedas is ripe for picking and conquering. --Markurion (talk) 03:20, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

@Markurion On the other hand, a Qunari invasion would probably be the quickest way to end the Mage/Templar war (next to potentially another Blight). You wanna see people put aside their differences and work together, give them a common enemy. The Qunari are a threat to both groups: heretic invaders in the eyes of the Templars, and enslavers worse than the Chantry for the mages (as bad as the Circles get, at least the Chantry hasn't started keeping its mages on literal leashes yet). The Qunari sweeping down from the north are a big enough of a threat that both sides would turn on the Qunari rather than continuing to fight each other. Plus, there would be no need to call an Exalted March for anything other than ceremonial sake: both armies are already mustered and armed when the Qunari show up. And by the way, If the Qunari can crush Tevinter anytime they want, why haven't they? Seriously, is there like an explanation for this in the lore or what? 23:14, April 26, 2012

Codex entries about Qunari invasion are all taken from ingame books like Brother Genitivi or other Thedas explorers and Chantry logs. They are all biased, and talk about the might of the Chantry. But truth is far from simple. Chantry had high loses in repelling Qunari invasion. Combined might of templars,mages and Thedas armies only barely prevailed, and Chantry tells of GRAND defeat of Qunari. That's just biased history.

And I believe Qunari were planned to be common enemy somewhere in future. I know I would write such thing If I were in Gaider's place. Magic problem is truly one of the biggest in the game. I mean, a guy must be pretty indifferent to everything if he thinks mage problem is easily solved. Short of turning all mages in world Tranquil, theres pretty much nothing anyone can do to prevent demon possession. Even Qunari methods are bound to fail sometime. They key lies in the Taint, as Avernus said. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Grey wardens will AGAIN be the saviors of the world. There is so much potential in this story. If Gaider fucks up, I won't read anything he writes again.--Markurion (talk) 07:46, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Brother Genitivi seemed to stay very unbiased in his writings and when you meet him. I mean he was keen to remain rational even when in the Temple that protected the Ashes. --58.106.167.45 (talk) 14:47, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

It's amazing how given a reason to believe they are righteous, how many people would conquer, dominate and slay another person and nation. The Chantry did it to elves, the Tevinter Imperium does it to anyone they consider beneath them, The Qunari do it for... whatever reason they believe, and apparantly; a number of you would do so to the Qunari and the Tevinter Imperium. Now now, before there's an uproar, i don't believe in rights and wrongs, neither do i believe in justice or any other moral obligatory binding concept. So when you say we should pick up arms and slay the Chantry/Qunari/Tervinters, i say good on ya, and if the gold is good i would happily join you, just don't expect me to go around preaching "truths" and saying that our merciless slaughter is "justice" and we are "ridding the world of evil". In my eyes, if we decide to persue that kind of course of action, we are just as "evil" as those we wage war against, we are all just simply fighting for whatever we believe in whether it be "independence, to do what we want, whatever we want" (from the Tervinter Imperium/and possibly any regular mage's perspective), "for a unified world and lasting peace" (from Qunari/Chantry perspective), "to be free of oppressors/those with the potential to do us harm" (from a slave's perspective, and possibly from a Templar's perspective of the mages). What i'm trying to say is, give whatever reason you want because at the end of the day, in my eyes anyway, we are not that much different from whatever faction we oppose. just people fighting to spread their ideals and that of those we despise are inferior or "evil". Kaiser Apple (talk) 02:27, April 28, 2012 (UTC) (Kaiser Apple)

I think weakness in Orlais gives Dragon Age a perfect reason for a Tevinter resurgence, which could then be beaten back. I must admit, though, that I am quite partial to the Imperium myself. If there's a war between Tevinter and the Qunari, I'd help the mages crush the ox-men in a heartbeat. Whocares65 (talk) 04:47, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, the Chantry should bow down and kiss the feet of the Imperium, without their alleged screw-ups and darkspawn creating the Chantry is a just religion started by one crazy girl, it's the equivalent of Joan of Arc starting Catholicism.98.233.217.33 (talk) 11:48, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

To 98.233.217.33 Andraste didn't create that religion, it was Emperor Kornelius Drakon of Orlais, he found the Chantry 100 years after Andraste's death. And the Chantry owes Tevinter nothing to bow down and lick their boots, they are mortal enemies. Tevinter has own Divine, who's a magister. Black and White divines don't recognise power of each other.

To 98.233.217.33 Joan starting Catholicism. Made my day.

If anyone's going to end the Tervinter Imperium anytime soon, it's going to be the Qunari, especially with the Orlais civil war and the Mage-Templar War consuming the world. And yes, i say the world, because Orlais will no doubt call upon her allies in her civil war (which is... alot? i actually don't know, if someone corrects me, i'm not surprised at all), and with no Templars and Mages assisting either side (due to their own war), there would probably be mass causalities everywhere, leaving no one to make a decisive blow against the Tervinter Imperium, except the Qunari, which would probably do diddly sqwat as they haven't been able to do it so far. (Kaiser Apple (talk) 15:14, April 28, 2012 (UTC))

To above the above: Thanks there are many parallels between Chantry/Chtholicism and Joan just fit so well. To above that above: Chantry most certainly does, the Imperium is the equivalent of Eve in their Chant. Without them they would be "without sin, without evil". They are then free to spread their tale that all the woes of the world can be solved if you just sing "Kum ba yah" featuring the Maker, and it works people buy into it and run all over Thedas chanting instead of down in the Deep Roads fighting the darkspawn.98.233.217.33 (talk) 15:30, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I dislike Blood Magic personally... However as it has been pointed out countless times, Magic itself does not have a moral compass. From the Imperium's point of view, It was the strongest weapon they had. It gave them the power to sink an entire city and almost wipe out an entire race, and also granted them the ability to almost enter "heaven" Itself. Given that, blood magic would be worth study, and in order to properly study it, they would need test subjects, or in this case slaves. I don't condone what they do, but I do understand why they do it.They know more about magic then anyone else. Wynne goes there to study how to undo shale's predicament, Feynriel goes to master his abilities. Last I checked as well, Tevinter holds back the Qunari constantly despite the fact the qunari at this point are the most advanced of the races with their dreadnaught ships and gun powder. All I'm saying is it's not like they just sit up there like cartoon villains twirling their tiny mustaches pouring oil in the ocean to kill the baby seals... They do serve a better purpose. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 12:05, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Slavery, ritual bloody sacrifaces and creating monster because of simply lust of power, those are reasons I want that cursed empire's fall. I even can tolerate blood magic (ex. Jowan, Merrill), but the magisters use it simply for a hegemony and respect. They treat slaves as nothing but pets and lab rats. Nobody needs knowladge they seek by those needles sacrifaces. They sacriface far too much. In DA: Asunder Shale was still a golem. As for qunari, may both sides anihilate each other, then it'll be 2 evils less.

wow, i actually never thought of Tevinter like that before, i guess the Tevinter Imperium doesn't seem so bad when you put it that way Warden Mage: Ferris. (Kaiser Apple (talk) 15:32, April 29, 2012 (UTC))

I know Shale is still a golem at this point, however my larger point was more over how surprised I was over Wynne not just wanting to, but NEEDING to go to Tevinter in order to study how to attempt a reverse "spirit attachment" for lack of a better term. "Why would a mage like Wynne want to go to someplace filled with blood mages!?" I would wonder. And it's because those same evil blood mages are the most advanced in magic. So much so, they forced the Qunari to accept mages into their society simply because they did not have the ability to combat fireballs and lightning bolts. Rome had slaves and is still revered as a great city, helping to form the building blocks of democracy. Contemporary knowledge concerning the manner in which the human body reacts to freezing is based almost exclusively on the Nazi experiments during the holocaust. Just because bad things are happening in Tevinter doesnt mean good can't come from it. Theres no way the Qunari and the Magisters are going to simply kill each other off, if it has to be the lesser of two evils, I'd hope the Magisters win. They dont go around trying to convert people into blood mages... they genuinely don't seem to care much for rules at all really... Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 08:10, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Our sources to Tevinter and the Imperial Chantry is incredible biased. Personally I think that Tevinter is as bad a place as Orlais.

In this I mean that both has its ups and downs. Is the Black Divine worse then the White Divine? One teaches that mages should be kept in leases (practically) while the other allows mages to rule if they have the ability.

But in honest we know almost nothing about Tevinter, what we do know, is that every nation, every power in Thedas is in some way “bad”. There is lots of bad things about Orlais, there snobbery, the serfdom of the peasantry, and perverted privileges of the chevaliers.

Antiva is one big rotten pile of assassin due, and Ferelden smells like wet dog.

Seriusly, I like the fact that it is inperfect, it would be boring if it were. The fact that Tevinter looks as bad as they does, must mean that they are proud of what they are, that they are not assumed, and do not feel like they need to justify their actions. Imagine an empire that appears to be perfect, that my friends are truly scary, at least we know what they are. So lets just let Tevinter rest.

I’m sure the black divine is a nice guy, and I am certain that he honestly believes that he serves the maker. I can guarantee that that man at least is not a blood mage.-rphb- (talk) 13:55, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

You call sources biased? Fenris came from Tevinter and he's an atheist, he described how slaves ar treated. No better source is than a victim like him or any other slave. There is nobody unbiased in case of slavery. Slavery is unforgivable, bloody sacrifaces as well. Black divine allows for slavery, white forbids it just like bloody rituals.

Oh yes because one victim's accusations of one owner is enough to damn an entire people. On top of that if you are so against slavery surely you must be against both the Qun (how they recruit) and the Chantry (the treatment of both mages and templars) they both practice it granted they are "nice enough" so they'll piss in yer ear and call it rain.98.233.217.33 (talk) 16:53, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention that they also treat elves like crap. Damn Chantry, and damn Tevinter Imperium. The Qun is something else... but no less worthy of dislike. EzzyD (talk) 17:09, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

All Chantry, Imperium and ox-men are destroyers of elven culture, elves are the most harmed race. In Tevinter they are enslaved, in rest of the world are forced to be poor and among qunari they are the least elves, they are indoctrinated by philosophy of illusion.

Oh yes because elves only have one city left that isn't full of angry, deranged cousins. What are darkspawn you might ask? Pfft, ironically I answer, we die to keep that sh*t underground. We are the 5%.98.233.217.33 (talk) 17:00, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Dwarves are conservative tyrants and they are greedy and corrupt. They are going to extinct and change nothing, because of their terribly wrong religion. Dwarven nobles treat lower casteless just like humans treat elves. Kal Sharok even slayed own people in Cadash thaig to kill all elves in just to not be enemies of the Imperium.

Oh wow I found an anon who makes no sense, imagine that. Time to break you down. One, not all dwarves are the same, ever hear of Bhelen or any of his supporters? Two, it is the caste system that has kept them behind. Three, the Dwarves version of ancestor worship is more a social construct designed to promote the best out of each class instead of a religion. Four, do you honestly think that elves are magically better? Devera has no qualms about selling off her own kin into slavery, Elva is a drunk who rats you out for sticking up for yourself, Athenril is a smuggler who sent kids to their deaths, Merrill is a blood mage that almost got her clan killed, Cammen lacks the testicular fortitude to go after what he desires, and Tamlen is a murderous bigot. The main point being regardless of race anyone is capable of doing bad or good. The elves just aren't in a position where they can throw their weight around enough to have a huge effect on others yet.98.233.217.33 (talk) 18:05, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Of course I heard about Bhelen, I even supported him. Devera is a traitor to her own kind, there is only one punishment for traitors. I think elves are in the worst position and they need better place the most. I don't care about mages, I care about elves. I hate Tevinter more than Chantry, they both are culture destroyers and tyrants, but the magisters are also slavers and sacriface lives for bloody rituals. Varania and Devera are perfect example of corrupting influence of magisters. Danarius and Caladrius were abominations for their evils. You also forgot about Orsino, who was a hypocryte, who did nothing to stop Quentin. He hid his existence, he could also kill him and destroy his corpse, he could hid his existence just as well. I support elves, because my real countrymen lost thier homeland for over a century, so I perfectly understand them. Nothing changes fact that Tevinter magisters are evil.

Aww what a cute strawman, we were talking about how elves are not different from any other race after you painted the Dwarves with your broad brush of ignorance. Anyways our only proof of the evil of the Tevinter is second-hand at best, so making a blanket statement that condemns all of them is a fallacy.98.233.217.33 (talk) 19:31, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think both of you Anon posters need to calm down. To clarify fully, both parties (elves & dwarves) can be said to have put themselves in their position because of their own pride. The Arlath'an elves did not treat Man with the caution and respect for their intelligence that was deserved. The Dwarves' pride about their ancestry and castes has put them into a position where they cannot even recognize some of their own people because that would show them as hypocrites and that their "tradition" has been shown as wrong. While I do support the Elves in this particular debate (all my characters are elven), neither party is innocent of putting this on themselves. EzzyD (talk) 20:41, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mean to contradict anything else that you've said (in fact, I agree with most of it and I encourage you to fight the good fight, here), but I'm pretty sure that the Black Divine is also a blood mage. He might just not experiment as much as some of his lesser worshipers, but I'm pretty sure that he's a very powerful mage himself, and that that would include practical knowledge of blood magic. TheodoricEichen (talk) 15:50, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Both my Hawke and Warden are pretty powerful mages, and they don't do blood magic. Fiona's a grand enchanter and doesn't do blood magic (That we know of, anyway). I don't think blood magic is a pre-req class in "archmage 101". - 18:43, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

No, but in Tevinter, where there are so many other blood mages, I find it doubtful that any single person in a very high position of authority wouldn't have at least some talent with blood magic, since otherwise they might be manipulated by others who do. (I know that any mage Hawke could break away from that blood mage's spell in the Rose by themselves, but I don't think that that counts as a canon ability that every mage could possess. Not against exceedingly powerful blood mages. Disagree with me if you feel like it.) TheodoricEichen (talk) 19:14, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Okay one of the anon posters said something interesting, that Devera is a traitor, and that there is only one thing to do to traitors.

I agree with you in that treason is the worst possible crime, and that any case of high treason should be punished by death. Here however our agreements stops, because I do not think that she is a traitor. In her own words:

“ I am Tevinter first and a servant of the Minrathous Circle second, those are the things that matter .”

Her primary loyalty is to her nation, and to her employers, race is irrelevant to her. Can you honestly say that that is not a valid point? That being an American, an Englishman or a German is less important then being a Europoid, Negroid or Mongoloid, because this is what we are talking about here. These are the three primary human races, sometimes called “white” “black” and “yellow” and they are almost as distinctive as Thedas’s “elves” “dwarfs” and “humans”.

I would like to think that a nation can be build on something other then race, in fact isn’t USA not exactly proof of that.

Be careful of determining where a persons primary loyalty is supposed to be before you are calling someone a traitor, you may be a racist, thinking race is the primary, but I am a nationalist, I honestly believe that the nation must come first.

Nice try painting me as a racist, given how you are the one who sees ethnicity being so different that they qualify as a separate race, it goes to show who the real racist is here. We are all human that is the only race. Also the concept of "nations" is meaningless to me when the accused is practicing a violation of for fundamental civil rights. She is betraying people based on the fact that they are of her race, and she knows that race is currently being suppressed and any would take much longer for an investigation to be started.98.233.217.33 (talk) 19:25, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

The word 'race has 23 definitions, only 8 of which could apply in this context, some of which conflict with others.

1. Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics

- people of all races, colors, and creeds

2. A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group

 - we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then

3. The fact or condition of belonging to such a division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this

 - people of mixed race

4. A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features

 - some male firefighters still regarded women as a race apart

5. A population within a species that is distinct in some way, esp. a subspecies

- people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct

6. (in nontechnical use) Each of the major divisions of living creatures

- a member of the human race
- the race of birds

7. A group of people descended from a common ancestor

- a prince of the race of Solomon

8. Ancestry

- two coursers of ethereal race

Taking these definitions into account, I personally prefer not to even use the word 'race' in this context as it can lead alot of confusion and arguments over how it is intended. I choose to look at it from a more accurate scientific perspective of species and sub-species. we are of the human (or homo sapien) species and caucasoids, negroids, mongoloids, etc. are sub-species. There are many differences between the sub-species than skin color and pointing out the differences does not mean you are resentful towards them. I don't see any sub-species as being entirely better than the other, though they do each have their advantages and disadvantages. I don't think anyone should be proud or ashamed of their sub-species (or even nation), as I think pride and shame should be reserved for actions/opinions and not wasted on whatever physical traits you wind up with or where you happened to be born/reside. For example, I would no sooner say I am proud or ashamed to be caucasian or American as I would say I'm proud or ashamed to be male, have blue eyes or have blond hair.

I am a fan of variety and think their differences should not be ignored or used insultingly. If they choose to take offense at pointing out an actual flaw of some sort within their sub-species, that seems oversensitive and self-defeating to me. Flaws can never be overcome if they are ignored. Stereotypes do exist but it is over-generalization to say that a stereotype is true of every member of the group (sub-species or otherwise) to which the stereotype refers to. I am against genetic admixture (sub-species cross-breeding) but only because I don't wish to see the whole human species turned into the goobacks from South Park. Admixture results in the introduction of new genetic lineages into a population. It has been known to slow local adaptation by introducing foreign, unadapted genotypes (known as gene swamping). It also prevents speciation by homogenizing populations.

I have nothing against 2 (or more) people of different sub-species being together, I just don't think they should be breeding. If not for admixture, maybe there would still be other species of the homo genus instead of only homo sapiens. In Thedas, there appears to be human and kossith sub-species, no dwarven sub-species (though there may have been prior to the darkspawn wiping out so much of their species) and arguable elven sub-species given the large amount of admixture among city elves (alot of it forced upon them) and the very small amount of admixture amongst the Dalish. Since humans, elves, dwarves and possibly kossith can all successfully cross-breed, it seems likely they belong to the same genus. I don't believe it is ever said if kossith and the other species can successfully breed or not but cross-breeding with humans could explain the hornless kossith. Then there is the Fex, which we know almost nothing about. Mages could possibly be genetically superior to non-mages, depending on if the source of their magic is genetic or some divine/demonic gift/curse. However it seems more likely to be genetic. --Vampire Damian (talk) 23:40, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Tevinter, if we go back to the game, is not a racistic based nation. We see it severel times in the game, that elves of skill are respected, and can even become a magister if they are talented enogh and has the right connection. Fenris’s sister was an example of that, and although I do agree that she is a traitor for betraying her brother, it does not change the fact that she could have become a magister had she succeeded, that politics can sometimes be dirty is another matter entirely.

To TheodoricEichen.

I believe that black divine is not a bload mage, because you cannot be a religius leader if you do not yourself believe in what you preach. If he was a bloodmage he or any of the clergy was a bloodmage, they would be a hypocrite.

While bloodmagic is only too commen in Tevinter, it is still a corruption. Politics corrupt and I am sure that the archon would be a bloodmage, but even he could only be so as long as it is not publicly proven that he is one, he has to have a clean façade, because officially it is a sin.

However the divine is different. Being a religious leader is vastly different from being a political leader, that is why, in almost no society do these two mix. The shaman needs to communicate with the spirits, while the chieftain needs to fin a good place to hunt. - unsigned

My point is, politic requires practical skills best suited for a pragmatist, while religion requires one to be spiritual and idealistic. Religion is nothing is not an idea. Pragmatism and idealism are each others opposite, nothing less. There are pragmatic reasons to allow torture (if it is the only or fastest way to acquire useful or critical information) but as an ideal it can never be allowed.

To honestly believe in an ideal, you must be spared for an impossible dilemma that only a pragmatist can solve. To believe is an absolute, there can be no doubt, no degrees of righter or wronger, only the ideal of the Good. Now you can be hired as a priest without being a believer, but you cannot make people believe your words, if you do not believe in them yourself.

therefore, as bloodmagic is a recognized sin, even in Tevinter, you cannot believe, you cannot prêch this and still practice it on the side. Do this and your words will be hollow. To acuse the black divine of being a bloodmage is like accusing the pope of being a libertine.-rphb- (talk) 23:44, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Quick question. I don't remember where it ever said that blood magic was considered a sin in Tevinter. As far as I know, they simply consider it another form of magic, another source of power, like lyrium. The White Divine and their followers are the ones who unilaterally determined that blood magic was eeeevil. But I don't remember reading that it was considered such in Tevinter. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Also, please refer me to the place that states that I am wrong, if it is so. It would be an enlightening read.) (And if my argument about the Black Divine practicing blood magic seemed to focus on pragmatism, it is simply because the thought that Tevinter's Chantry might consider blood magic inherently wrong never even crossed my mind.) TheodoricEichen (talk) 01:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Of course you can be a religious leader AND do all sorts of sins the religion profoundly forbids. Nobody would dare say Rodrigo Borgia was a saint.

And as for being both political and religious leader... up until late 1800s, that's exactly what the popes did. Guiliano della Rovere's a prime example, and what about Henry VIII? There are countries without separation of church and state even today. China during the Han dynasty didn't have separation of religion and state either. In Japan the nominal political leader was sanctioned as a deity until the end of WWII.

I don't see why the Black Divine can't be a blood mage. Their interpretation is that magic must serve greater good, and if you aren't offering others' blood as sacrifice, then what's the harm? (Blood can be used in lieu or lyrium, and I don't see Merrill doing mind control.) - 02:59, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Or sacrificing goats every time she uses magic. TheodoricEichen (talk) 03:12, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah t

major awesome points to GabrielleduVent for also having an awesome powerful mage who wasnt a blood mage! 24.251.141.185 (talk) 07:32, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, thanks. I love my Warden, she's so ordinary in the beginning. Not stunning, not tall, not always nice, and certainly not the strongest mage. What she did have was pride, "I'm a freaking Circle Mage, I'm better than opening veins". She has come very far :D- 09:02, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Good point TheodoricEichen. We properly don't know enough to say that the imperial chantry with certainty condemn the use of bloodmagic. I believe there are links especially in DA2 with Fenris, that says that the practice is condemned while still being almost universally praciced by the politicians, aka magisters

And for the political and spiritual leader. First, seperation of church and state is not required to have a separate head for the temporal power and for the ecclesiastical power. The symbol of the Holy Roman Empire is a two headed eagle, to symbolize the two heads of the state, the emperor and the pope.

Several political leaders have throughout time tried to nationalise the once singular church, claiming themselves as its highest authority. This however does not make them the religious leader, it merely gives them (the temporal power) seniority over the ecclesiastical power, instead of in the case of the HRE being equal.

For instance in my kingdom, the queen is protector of the faith, but it is the bishops and parliament that has the actual power over the church.

You see, many religious denominations are not particular hierarchical, the head of the church is only relevant when the church has a head, both in spirit and in practice. The queen is only a spiritual head not a practical one, unlike the pope that is bot de jury and de facto the head of the catholic church.-rphb- (talk) 08:44, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Did you get my point about Rodrigo Borgia? Kthxbi. - 09:03, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I have rarely seen any religious (or political) people that have a problem with being a hypocrite. Leliana for example as an agent of the Divine, performs tasks that would 'blacken the Divine's name'. Personally I think getting someone else to do your dirty work does not absolve you of any 'name blackening', rather it adds to it. Also I doubt Andraste would have approved of the Exalted March of the Dales, the Chantry declaring the canticle of Shartan heretical or their mistreatment of mages (especially considering that she was likely a mage herself).

The templars use magic and are forced to eat lyrium, which eventually develops into an addiction and severe brain damage. If a dwarf were to join their ranks, he would be a profane. The magic they use is ineffective against blood magic and the brain damage makes them very susceptible to psychological attacks by demons and blood mages. Dwarves who don't eat lyrium could do the templars job better. Templars also use blood to magically track escaped mages, which would mean that they also use blood magic to an extent. Mages also ingest lyrium sometimes (although to a seemingly lesser extent), especially in the Circles. This could be a contributing factor to how many mages that have been part of a Circle develop mental problems.

Hedge mages/apostates who have never been part of a Circle usually seem to be more in control of themselves, even if their actions aren't good. Vile as the Tevinter magisters are, they are in control of themselves. Fenris' lyrium markings also damaged his brain resulting in amnesia and other possible mental problems. Then there's the red lyrium idol. Considering the effects of lyrium, it seems safer to use blood. You could use your own blood, the blood of an ally (ideally a willing ally who is possibly already bleeding) or the blood of your enemies if you are in a fight. It does not currently require dealing with demons, though it my have at one point. There are books written on it (such as the ones confiscated by Irving) and you could learn it from another blood mage. Some entropic and spirit spells have similar effects to some blood spells and they are not banned. --Vampire Damian (talk) 23:40, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

I say let Tevinter gain its former lands and power, all hail the Tevinter empire! 203.45.127.20 (talk) 02:04, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

And I say may Tevinter fall forever along with its slavery, tyranny and blood rituals. DEath to every magister!!! I hate scums and magisters are biggest scums in the game.

Tevinter needs to rise. --188.67.167.106 (talk) 16:27, June 12, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

Tevinter is based on ancient Roman Empire like Nilfgaard in Witcher or Sith Empires in Star Wars, which main characteristic is gaining power by conquering the land and slavery. With Tevinter collapsed Thedas has many new cultures, what makes it more fascinating. Many people said opinions on Tevinter shown in DA are biased, but I see there is nothing moral or good in slavery, it was always evil.

Bring down Tervinter? Quick, find someone who didn't kill Anders and FedEx is dumb ass to Tervinter!!(Anders being the dumbass. NOT the one who didn't kill him) GreyWolf84 (talk) 13:46, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Qunari and Imperium are in a constant war like dwarves and darkspawns. The oxmen will eventually invade Tevinter. Even if it survives, clever slave rebels will just wait to end of this war and take action. Top magisters could be killed while they sleep, that's a perfect opportunity to kill everyone. Weakened country is easy to conquer or overthrow.

Tevinter will never fall. Qunari's are not that powerfull. The true power comes from magick and Qunari's fear it they don't know how to handle such power only mages can. Tevinter will rise! --188.67.171.18 (talk) 15:22, July 2, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

When one of countries gets too powerful other lands unites against it. Napoleon is an excelent example.

Well Napoleon wasn't mage or Magister. Mages are superiour. --188.67.171.18 (talk) 18:27, July 2, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

I'm surprised you like a child understood Napoleon as a mage. He made France incredibly powerful during his dictatorship, countries beyond his influence allied 5 times to defeat his hegemony. Same will happen to Tevinter, if they become too strong.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.8.128.146 (talk)

No it wont happen because Tevinter is ruled by mages and mages are superiour they will never fall. --87.93.56.25 (talk) 13:34, July 3, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

The way life works is the survival of the strongest. That's what happens in Tevinter too. If you want to call it evil, then you should call nature as evil too. By the way, Tevinter might not be as powerful as it used to be, but it still has lots of cards in it's sleeve to play. 21:14, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, to deny magic is to deny life itself.--188.67.29.62 (talk) 12:23, July 6, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

Qunari deny magic and they are the strongest nation in Thedas. They don't treat magic as a source of life, but as a tool of chaos and demons. (talk)

I don't care if it's impossible, I want Tevinter's destruction. Slavery is evil and nothing will change this fact. Roman Empire eventually fall, because of brute strength of thier opponents and their weak rule, every empire eventually falls. One of the archont wanted to abolish slavery, but he was killed by the rest of magisters, this is a perfect example of corruption. I can't tolerate such evil, even if it's too strong. I don't care about mages and templars or Orlais, I care that Tevinter is corrupt. (talk)

Tevinter is the true power in Thedas and Tevinter's rise to its former power will be back. I hope they enslave those pesky elves again, I wish I had my own elven slave. Wait one second, I did in DA2. 203.45.127.20 (talk) 01:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Darkside

So many people discuss here about the chantry, but the topic is different. So stop discussing not on the topic.This page is about Tevinter! I don't care if rulers are mages or not, I care about they are slavers. I don't care if they are insanely powerful or invincible, no matter what I'll always support slaves in their rises. Maevaris Tilani was only good magister, but rest coulages had assassinated Archon, who abolished slavery. If they kill her, then I just have another reason.

Tevinter, chantry or qunari no matter ,they are approval slavery only differnce is that chantry are hypocrites and hide this behind mask of goodness and religion (typical fanaticism like qun ) .Tevinter at least not giving shit they don't hide slavery. So i want destroy templars (chantry) , Tevinters slave hunters and qunari puppets. Buttkicking for goodness and space hamsters!

But orlesians punish by execution for slavery.Besides there is no point on sharing slavers on worse or better, because they all are evil, race or nationality don't matter .Golems are also slaves, they have the worst situation, because their forms are irreversable.

Tevinter needs to fall? The whole of Thedas needs to fall. What I mean exactly, is that everyone is almost as guilty as Tevinter. Many people actually say that Religion is used for slavery even in todays world, Lets look at Sebastian for a moment, maybe not the best example but he openly accepts the Maker to the point to attempting to make everyone around him, especially Fenris into a believer. The Qunari are simply communists who use religion to flower-coat what they do. [[User:Edocrack - 123 (User talk:Edocrack - 123 talk) 5:30, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

You forgot to mention dwarves. They use their religion as an excuse to make their commoners suffer, they rather extinct than evolve. They also used to turn them into slaves called golems, that's the worst kind of slavery.

Orlesians support chantry dammn orlais is a chantry there power have only these people who support chantry or just pretend they do this.So quick chantry-tyrants and fanatics who feeds on people fear and use this to took power qunari-tyrants and fanatics who indoctrynate people and kill those who do not give to indoctrinate ,Tevinter- opportunists who have no respect for human life when others qunari and templars are lawful neutral/evil then tevinter is a neutral evil country

Ok, so Tervitner is full of Grade A jerks. Orlais is full of Grade B jerks, and The dwarven nobles are Grade C jerks. The elves are also getting a raw deal as well as the common caste with the dwarves. Here is what I think. Gather up all the disgruntled elves, dwarfs, and humans. Clean the whole slate. Tervinter, Orlais. and anyone else who are some grade of jerk. Just raze Feraldon. Purging fire would be a good way to describe it. Gathering more and more to your cause. Templars get iced. The seekers actually find something, death. The Devine is a little more so now. and recreate the whole continent Just start over from scratch in your image. Because quite honestly, I am getting sick and tired of the little people (no pun intended) getting the shaft (Not referring to Isabella) Feralden is already falling into chaos. Why not just make it the standard for a couple of years then try and put the pieces back together. GreyWolf84 (talk) 05:42, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

I would absolutely LOVE it if they include Tevinter in the third iteration. That place is by far the most intriguing than any other, far more than Orlais IMO. Even more awesome if you could be a mage in Tevinter. Elves deserved whatever they got, seeing how arrogant Dalish elves are despite being wandering nomads. Tevinter was one of the most powerful empires ever, and only fell to the "bride of the maker" because it was horribly weakened by the first blight. Even so, it is still considered a powerful nation. Which other nation could survive both a blight(the most devastating blight as of yet) AND a barbarian attack by Andraste and her treacherous husband and still be feared as one of the most powerful nations in existence? Not to mention, they are also embroiled in war with the Qunari and are still surviving. That is a major feat considering that it took three exalted marches to just push back the Qunari. As a nation, Tevinter has my respect. Being ruled by magisters is so much better for a mage than being tied to a leash in one of the chantry controlled circles. That is almost like slavery in itself, not having equal rights as others just because you're born with magic. I believe if you're born with power, you should use it. It's pathetic how mages are kept under the chantry thumb. Not so in Tevinter, which is another big plus point. Given time, I believe Tevinter could easily crush Orlais, having such a vast and powerful mage contingent. P.S- Not to forget, we owe the formation of the Grey Wardens to Tevinter's elite soliders, how's that for awesome ? Nomad007 (talk)

Nobody owes Tevinter anything, I have no respect for corruption or slavery. You should not call Dalish arrogant, when you support someone so arrogant like magisters. Their political rule is weak, that's an arguing senate, this caused Roman Empire fall. 3rd Reich was powerful, but I have no respect for this evil empire. Napoleon conquered half of Europe, but he become so powerful that rest of Europe united against his overpowered empire and they won. USSR was rulled by dictators, but collapsed on several countries after 70 years of dictatorship, Russia is smaller, but more powerful than USSR because they have new political system and more competent economists. Every empire existed thanks to slavery, but they all no longer exist. Tevinter is stagnat like 2 last dwarven kingdoms, lack of evolution also causes exitnction. Slavery is evil and I have no reason to respect or like Tevinter or to support them over salves.

Owe them nothing? How can you say that? The First blight was so terrible that it brought humanity to the brink of extinction. If it hadn't been for the Tevinter soldiers, the Grey Wardens would never have been formed. And since there was no other nation as powerful at the time, the darkspawn would have easily succeeded. On your second point, there political rule is not at all weak as mentioned in the codex. Rebellions of any sort were easily crushed. Also, you can't really draw comparisons between real world dictatorships and Magister rule. Remember, this is a fantasy game with magic as a major element. Nothing of the sort exists in the real world. None of the real world dictatorships have lasted as long as the imperium. Nomad007 (talk)

WE owe Tevinter nothing, even langauges, they don't come from their one, Tevinter is to blame for blight. Magisters created darkspawns, Corypheus confimred it and the Gray Wardens weren't found by the magisters, the Wardens found their order themselves and refused to serve any king or emperor or magister. Wardens cleaned mess magisters started. The darkspawns are tertiary reason I hate Tevinter, main reason is slavery. They are arrogant and deserve to be destroyed, elves don't deserve what they have. In DA3 no matter what, I'll never support Tevinter. Besides magisters can be killed like every normal human, they can be assassinated. Slave rebelion are crushed, because they are not organised and they lack skills to form strategies. Every Tevinter guy we met was a scum and I have right to condemn Tevinter just like you condemn elves. I don't care how powerful they are, I want to ruin their evil cursed empire. In DA3 I'll organise a rebelion or engulf a civil war between magisters, so they could destroy each other and survivors will be executed by their slaves and then totalistarism of magisters will end. Qunari will be next problem, but they are also not invincile.

Given that, as far as I remember, no loyalist Tevinter character has ever been sympathetic (and most have been villains of the mwahaha-ing, dog-kicking variety), my magical plot sensor tells me that Tevinter might be numbered among the enemies of our protagonist in DA3, particularly because they've said we'll get to go to Tevinter and that the subtitle suggests we'll be working for the Chantry. If so, we can but hope we lead a mighty crusade of all those not utterly insane and/or totalitarian imperialistic borg-types straight through Tevinter and all the way to Par Vollen, wiping out the magisters and the qunari with no distinction. Because when it comes down to it, our slave-sacrificing, self-serving Magisters and mage-mutilating, nation-killing Qunari make the Chantry and her nations, which at least try to help people in ways other than butchering them, look like cute widdle kittens. The only reason Tevinter is marginally less nasty than the Qun is because the Magisters are often too busy fighting each other to bother anyone else. TheTeaMustFlow (talk) 21:32, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Even if I would not work for the inquisition, I still would work against the Imperium, I hate slavery, because my nation was twice ensalved. Anyone, who wants slavery is my enemy.

To add, The only Tevinter presence we've seen is outside Tevinter nation. How do we not know if the slavers in Fereldan were not a splinter Tevinter group? How do we not know if Danarius is actually a real dick, even in Tevinter just he was so powerful politically that no one dared speak against him? How do we not know that the 5 mages who went to the Golden City were actually told not to go by the rest of Tevinter? [[User:Edocrack - 123 (User talk:Edocrack - 123 talk) 9:58, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

7 magisters, who went to the city were supreme leaders and they were the most powerful and nobody had right to defy them and they never inteded to share power with lesser rulers.

Tevinter would never fall. Tevinter needs to rise. Mages are superior everyone knows this. If you dont you are stupid or Dwarfs. --87.95.78.78 (talk) 13:23, October 14, 2012 (UTC)Lord Rahl

You just don't believe this and you simply insult everyone who disagrees with you. Tevinter was once 10 times greater, but collapsed and for a millenium didn't get their former power. Nothing weakens country more than blights and civil wars. Magisters are powerful and can destroy each other in civil wars. Mages bleed and die like non mages, a lonely magister is not invincible, Danarius was killed. One archont was assassinated, Tevinter can be destroyed if tried and believed. Control rods of jaggernauts can be stolen and used to devastate Mintrathus.

Elminster and Edwin will destroy chantry! xD

It's about Tevitnter, not chantry, so stop babbling about things beyond the topic.

Yes, you are stupid Dwarfs. --87.95.78.78 (talk) 18:43, October 14, 2012 (UTC)Lord Rahl

YOu've only proven point to be a rude and nothing more. You din't realise that plots and conspiracies can destroy countries more effective than wars.

No if they are doing it right and they are not doing it right. --87.95.62.61 (talk) 10:16, October 15, 2012 (UTC)Lord Rahl

An intresting line of thought is that Tevintier will never fall if the mage-templar war ends diffrently or in a way that benifits them, If mage revolt and win wouldn't they start to rule other kingdoms...domintate them and then maybe even ally with tevinter? hello again imperium?. any how bottomline tevinter should fall by chantry or qunary or internally, magocracy aside foul and corrupt are thee politically. --Hurrensam (talk) 23:13, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

It is a BIG IF that mages would win, but miracles could happen. If the mages would win it does not mean that they would take over and rule. NO THEY WOULD NOT! Not all mages want to rule. Maby there are some, but not all of them. They just want to be left alone and free. --188.67.195.114 (talk) 08:56, November 8, 2012 (UTC)David Gaider