Forum:Table formatting - language table

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Format of language table - proposal

Hi all, I'd really appreciate your input. I split the Elven Language info from Elves into a new article and did some tidying, including creating a couple of new templates to display the terms & definitions (I'm planning to use the templates for qunari, dwarvish and - I think there are some terms - Tevinter too). I started with the table format used for the item summary tables, which looks like this:

Format 1

Elvish Term	Pronunciation	Definition
Abelas	ah-BELL-aws	Sorrow. Also used as an apology.
Andaran atish’an	an-DARE-an AH-tish-awn	Enter this place in peace. A formal elven greeting.

However, I was tidying my home page by using table formatting swiped from Tierrie, and it struck me that that table format may be more consistent with the infoboxes and the rest of the wiki. I also don't think it matters hugely if the language tables aren't consistent with the item ones, though in general I'm a big fan of consistency. Based on Tierrie's tables, here's what the language tables might look like:

Format 2

Elvish Term	Pronunciation	Definition
Abelas	ah-BELL-aws	Sorrow. Also used as an apology.
Andaran atish’an	an-DARE-an AH-tish-awn	Enter this place in peace. A formal elven greeting.

Format 3

Elvish Term	Pronunciation	Definition
Abelas	ah-BELL-aws	Sorrow. Also used as an apology.
Andaran atish’an	an-DARE-an AH-tish-awn	Enter this place in peace. A formal elven greeting.

Format 4

Abelas (ah-BELL-aws): Sorrow. Also used as an apology.

Andaran atish’an (an-DARE-an AH-tish-awn): Enter this place in peace. A formal elven greeting.

I'd really appreciate your views on which format you prefer. ♦ Zoev ^talk 17:36, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I did spot Tierrie's response including the comment about avoiding tables where possible before he deleted it, and realized that this is a case where it is possible to avoid tables (there weren't any before I came along). I've thus added Format 4 - a straightforward list, but in a template to facilitate future formatting changes if we want them. Feel free to vote again if you prefer the no-table option! ♦ Zoev ^talk 03:29, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

Please put your comments under here. Thanks in advance for your input!

I prefer format 2. I'm willing to change the tables over for two reason. Firstly, I was planning on switching the tables to css. Secondly, this meant that I would need to revise every table and strip it of style formatting anyway. And as such, it would be trivial convert it to your style. -- tierrie talk contr 18:11, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, instead of naming the contents data=, you could also access the variable as {{{1}}} even amongst the named ones. For consistency sake I suggest we keep the first unnamed variable as the data in our tables. -- tierrie talk contr 18:13, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ta, Tierrie. I'll change the parameter setup as you suggest (once others have had a chance to comment on their preferred format). Getting table formatting into the wiki stylesheet sounds a very Good Thing, too. Do you think the non-header cell background contrasts enough with the page background, or should it be a bit lighter ... though, I think, not quite as light as the current tables? ♦ Zoev ^talk 18:36, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

It needs stronger contrast. I had to squint to notice the rows. -- tierrie talk contr 18:55, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Is that better? That's a #212121 grey, half way between the previous example (#131313) and the current table row colour (#292929). ♦ Zoev ^talk 20:28, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Looks better. It looked different on my home vs my work computer. Its super bright here and I can't tell the difference between 292929 vs 212121. Perhaps try 1c1c1c? This is really a toolshed problem and if Loleil caught me commenting on it, I'd never hear the end of it. The bottom line is that it looks fine now, and I'm not fussy with that kind of details ;) Consistency, now I'm big on consistency! -- tierrie talk contr 20:43, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Gah! You were too fast for me, Tierrie. I was just adding format 3 for a bit more choice. This is much the same as format 2, except that the cell background and the border have a reddish tinge rather than plain brown and grey. I've also changed the background of format two to 1c1c1c as suggested by Tierrie. Whilst we fiddle around, I've amended the trial template used by formats 2 & 3 to take parameters for the border and cell colours (see format 3 for an example), so people can feel free to play aound and add their own preferred colouring if they fancy. ♦ Zoev ^talk 20:53, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the update on format 4. After looking at it, I realize that you're right. It looks perfectly fine without a table so I'm going to go with option 4. I like that its a template so you can easily swap between styles in the future without breaking anything. -- tierrie talk contr 03:38, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Having said that, I love your table, and I would like to use format 2 or 3 for tables. After giving it some thoughts and weighing on Hollowness's opinion, I do think that format 2 would probably be a better fit to avoid overloading on red. Either way I think your tables are far more pleasing to the eye than the existing ones. -- tierrie talk contr 23:37, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

So when are we gonna make the switch to these tables for tables, the weapon/armor tables will look soooo much better with these.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:10, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Tierrie! I won't delete the templates for format 2 until you've taken what you need from them, though I will get rid of the language table on Elven Language and the other table templates I created. Looking at the infoboxes again in the light of working on these tables and Hollowness's comments about borders, it strikes me that the infoboxes could probably be made to look better in the shorter term by simply changing Template:Vault Infobox to display tables with cell borders of 1px and {{ColorTableHeader}} rather than their current somewhat clunky borders. Is that template getting its border width from the stylesheet? I took a look at it but it's a bit complicated for me! ♦ Zoev ^talk 13:57, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

You can move the code over here sans template and preserve it for all time. That way, we can always come back and review it. I like your suggestions re Vault Infobox and I'll take a look at that as well when I change it. -- tierrie talk contr 19:05, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

ETA for the table change is roughly a week -- tierrie talk contr 21:37, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Tierrie. Good idea about copying and pasting the code here. Why didn't I think of that? ... No you don't need to answer! I'll do as you suggest, but tomorrow I think. ♦ Zoev ^talk 01:36, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Sweet mother of Zoev. You can't spell sezy without a Z. -- tierrie talk contr 20:21, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

First thought: huh?! Then <SHIFT>+Reload and there it was. Looking good! Though I'd be tempted to up the contrast between the background and cells again. I think, though, my preference about that depends on the time of night - right now I'm tired and bleary-eyed and can hardly make out the grid. ♦ Zoev ^talk 00:08, February 2, 2010 (UTC) (PS I've now embedded the above tables into this forum and gotten rid of the redundant templates.)

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I really feel there is a red over load on this site, of course I am purposing for the info boxes to be changed but even then spoilers and some other people use the red as headers, then to top off with tables. I donno seems like over kill IMO, keep it for spoilers only or if you happen to have a page with both spoilers, an item box and/or a table or headers you might as well be looking at the red bg. I think the red bg should be censored by the admins pick the few templates allowed to use them and ban the rest unless it doesn't over do it. I think we have to make sure we don't get this code red, red over load. IMO because its prolly rare only these tables sample 2 (twines the themes of the both) imo, and spoilers should be the only red on this wiki.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 00:44, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Hollowness, I'm afraid I don't quite follow the bit before the comma in your final sentence. As a result, I'm not sure whether you prefer format 1, 2 or 3 (if forced to pick - I get that you're not in love with any of them!) Could you clarify for me? Regarding the rest of your comment, I can understand not liking all the red, but it is a key component of the current theme of this wiki (used in the page surround as well as the infoboxes and the spoiler tags as you point out). It's also a colour used by BioWare for DA:O branding, though admittedly that's a different red! As I've said, I'd be in favour of - in time - changing the look of the wiki to a more in-game feel, but I reckon that even after such a change it would still be the case that the format of multi-row tables should be consistent with that of the other tables on the wiki (ie infoboxes). As we don't yet have an agreed proposal for a replacement scheme, I think we need to carry on working within the one we have, albeit bearing in mind future-proofing for the possibility of a future overhaul (which is one reason Tierrie's plan to put table formatting info into the stylesheet is a good one!). So, I'd be in favour of changing the headers of the language and item tables to match the current infoboxes for now, even if we are planning to change the format of both at a later date. ♦ Zoev ^talk 01:58, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Sample 2 if we eliminate red the ratio of red theme or not is getting over killed. This is my fear:

sample of over red

Involvement

"Swooping. Is. Bad."
-- Spoilers for Dragon Age: Origins within.

Loghain is responsible for devising the tactics that will be used in the Battle of Ostagar. Although Loghain advises Cailan not to fight on the front line, Cailan wants to fight with his men, away from Loghain. As part of his plan, Loghain and the bulk of the army will stay apart from King Cailan and the Grey Wardens and wait for a beacon to be lit, signalling Loghain and his men to come in and flank the darkspawn. However, the Wardens are delayed and the beacon is not lit on time. When the beacon is lit the valley of Ostagar is already overrun with darkspawn and Loghain retreats, leaving King Cailan and the Grey Wardens to die.

After the battle at Ostagar, he labels any remaining Grey Wardens traitors and places an extremely large bounty on their heads. He also declares himself regent for his daughter Anora. This is not met with approval from the Bannorn, and civil war ensues.

Loghain takes drastic measures to secure Ferelden, including allowing elves to be sold into slavery, and hiring Zevran Arainai, an Antivan Crow to assassinate The Warden, on the advice of Arl Howe.

At the Landsmeet, The Warden finally has a chance to confront Loghain. If The Warden has not gathered enough support from the nobles in attendance, Loghain will attempt to arrest the party and Arl Eamon, and a fight will ensue. This fight can be avoided with enough support. Whether there is a fight or not, the matter of who will rule Ferelden is still uncertain. To resolve the impasse, a duel must be fought. The Warden can elect to fight this duel, or select another companion.

Loghain will eventually yield, and The Warden must decide his fate. He can be executed by either Alistair or The Warden, or at Riordan's suggestion he can undergo the Joining and become a Grey Warden and companion. If he becomes a Grey Warden, Alistair will permanently leave the party as he is incapable of accepting Loghain as a brother. If The Warden chooses to let Alistair fight the duel he will kill Loghain after he yields without the option to allow him to surrender.

Adding Loghain to your party gives you a strong tank-character with a good set of armor; he can play a similar role to Alistair in combat. His high willpower also gives him good damage-dealing power. Recruiting Loghain also develops his character further and will reveal his feelings about Ostagar and other recent events.

If Loghain becomes a companion, it is easy to get high influence with him. When he asks what The Warden sought to gain by making him a Grey Warden, speaking to him in a forgiving manner and asking him "What do you want?", will also raise his approval. When discussing Anora's childhood, using the final option that says "No one must know her better than you" will net some good influence with him as well.

If you ask him to consider Morrigan's offer, he will express reluctance to participate and request to be the one to sacrifice his life to strike the killing blow against the Archdemon, arguing that it is a form of redemption for his mistakes. The Warden can still insist on doing the deed, though.

Logain's Armor

Template:LanguageTable2

Comments about over red

But if we do lets say change the info boxes to the in game look and censor people to not to use the background in other templates, overwhelm red won't be an issue.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:11, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

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I agree that would be a bit much - especially without any additional text! But I didn't realise we were thinking of changing the section heading style to use the red background too? I thought it was just tables and spoiler tags, which doesn't seem too much to me. I'm not sure I like the section headings with that background - is that really happening somewhere on the wiki? ♦ Zoev ^talk 02:18, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well we cannot predict all editors unless we set the rules now, but header tags are being used on some pages, DLC, Plot Items, who knows when they'll be introduced later especially if people see the pages looking spiffier (people get theme happy even when its over kill). I mean I know I am totally anti the current info boxes, but I like the spoilers and I like Sample 2 above. If those were promised to be the only red bg on the wiki, I'd sleep at night.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:23, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

My Ideal Page

Spoilers Tables and a version of my info box just to show less red /in-game theme and current theme can work.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:49, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Concept from Hollowness

I think the table sample 2 and the spoiler theme are just enough bg red and not over kill, Tables and spoilers as the only red, especially if there are multiple tables or spoilers on a page should be well enough. And the border:1px solid #523F35 as only color/width for borders as a rule of thumb, I think would be a nice too. For a happy in game / current wiki theme.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 03:06, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

I like this format soo much

I think this might be what all current and further sortable tables should look like, this is my plan for the gifts page.

Gift	Prefer	Alistair	Dog	Leliana	Morrigan	Oghren	Shale	Sten	Wynne	Zevran	Secret Companion
Black Grimoire	Morrigan	×	×	×	※	×	×	×	×	×	×
Ale	Oghren	-	-	-	-	+	-	-	-	-	-
The Search for the True Prophet	Wynne	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+	-	-
Wine	Wynne	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+	-	-

I have to say these mocha borders, spoilers and tables look real sharp. Anyways because I will be implementing this on a popular page I want to have the ok from the admins first.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 15:17, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think it looks great - though would definitely hold off making any changes to the existing table until Tierrie has updated the stylesheet so that background colours, borders, etc can be inherited from the class rather than hard-coded. The end point would look the same, but would be so much easier to maintain and, if we want, change in the future. (Oh, and I think Tierrie's already looking at making a change to the borders of the infoboxes - if he has the time and inclination then I agree it would be great if he could also have a play with the cell backgrounds/padding.) ♦ Zoev ^talk 17:01, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I'll update accordingly when Tierrie has updated, for now I don't think it be such an issue. And people seem to like the table.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 06:04, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the spoiler table is now sortable. Clicking on the button next to the person's name will sort the Gifts so that the person's preferred gift will be on top. This makes a few of the columns obsolete. I'll leave it to the editors, or Hollowness to decide what is no longer necessary and remove it. In my opinion, this development makes the "Preferred" column obsolete. It also makes the "gifts for X" section prior to the table obsolete. If you choose to keep them, can you please collapse the icons so that they show miniicons instead of large icons? Cheers! -- tierrie talk contr 23:56, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

@User:Hollowness, I remember seeing your an example of your gift icons. You had them blown up to a larger size, made them bold. I like that. Can you modify the current icons to that icon set? -- tierrie talk contr 23:58, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I really like the sortable table, though the "Preferred" column may still be handy to group gifts by the person who prefers them. But for me the columns headed by people's names are behaving oddly anyway: I can sort once by one person's name then it seems to get stuck until I refresh the page, then I can sort once again. Is that just me? It's very strange! ♦ Zoev ^talk 00:14, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's odd. Try clearing your cookies and see if it comes back. -- tierrie talk contr 01:59, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Tierrie, I am confused, at one point you tell me to make the icons mini which they are and then you tell me to make them larger... I am confused.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 05:26, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Tierrie, I tried clearing cookies but the odd thing is still happening (just in case I didn't make it clear before, it is just the columns headed by names that are the problem - the preferred and gift name columns work fine and don't get stuck). However, don't worry about it just yet. Some time later today I'll clear cookies and restart my PC and see if that helps and let you know. ♦ Zoev ^talk 09:15, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Update: nope, cleared all cookies, restarted my PC and it's still happenining. However, if it's only me then I guess it's not really a problem. Is no-one else having the same issue? ♦ Zoev ^talk 11:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Even Further Thought

How about changing the itemtransformer template to look like these tables they will look much better that way. I mean mocha border instead of grey, the cells spaced and all that stuff.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 15:34, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

@Tierrie. I noticed you are redoing info boxes I was wondering, even just for when you present them, to have an option with only the header being red and the left column as the same and the cells (grey). Just cause I feel a red over load coming with tables spoilers and info boxes, especially if we go with those info boxes, instead of the in game look version.  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 09:23, February 2, 2010 (UTC)