After updating quite a few talent pages, it seems that the width of space allocated to spell/talent information (cooldown, cost, duration, effects, etc.) should be noticably wider, taking up space that the description currently does. As it stands, I can't find any spell or talent that uses remotely as many lines in the description section as they do in the information section.
Now, obviously we can't correct for the 10 lines of details, but we can at least prevent some lines from wrapping (i.e. Enemy damage resistance: -50%) and taking up yet another line. Take a look at the Entropy spells page to see what I mean, seems just a little bit ridiculous. T0rin (talk) 20:25, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
- I've moved the effects to the description column only for now (for the talent row). Does this work better? We could possibly move other lines as well. --D. (talk · contr) 21:04, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
I'm of the same opinion. Was playing around with the widths myself when I was doing the upgrade row. I just wanted to make sure it matched the actual talent, and I wasn't sure if/how it would affect DAO talents. But as for DA2, narrowing the description and widening the stats box I'm all for. Tivadar (talk) 00:06, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
Also, the way I've been doing upgrades is to add the effects into the effects section even for things that give increased range/duration/etc. It's possible to do this using the actual range field and set it to "+5m" or some such. I'm actually uncertain what the best way to handle this is. I definitely don't think we want to dupe the range/upkeep/other info in the upgrade unless something has changed. For example, these two are possible
|
Perforate Upgrade Requires: Level 6 |
Backstab now cools down more quickly, allowing the rogue to use it more frequently. Cooldown: -5s (total: 10s) |
|
Reversed Grip Upgrade Requires: Level 10 |
Twin Fangs can now be used more frequently, allowing the rogue to rapidly tear down any opponent. Cooldown: -10s (total: 20s) |
What do you think? Tivadar (talk) 00:34, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- My thinking is that core talent/spell cooldown/range/duration/whatever should be used in the talent variable, i.e. | range, but upgrades that modify these should be listed as effects, as technically they are. Putting Cooldown: -5s in the upgrade talent's cooldown variable gives the impression that the upgrade itself is actually an ability? Well, you see where I'm going. I'm all for upgrades that modify the core variables (cooldown, cost, range, duration) being listed in the effects section of the upgrade talent.
- And re: template change, I think that is good. One additional change I think we could make is to the lineheight or line spacing, whatever it is called on the wiki. I know the css attribute is lineheight, but I don't know how it is implemented in the wiki. (the spacing between lines/height of an actual line of text) I think it could be a little smaller, as now it almost seems like double spaced text. T0rin (talk) 13:15, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Went back and looked at Entropy spells again, and while moving the effects to the description section has helped, there is still an issue with line-wrapping on practically every requirement for "X points in X tree", i.e. "Requires: 2 points in Entropy". Also, some skill requirements wrap, i.e. "Requires: Misdirection Hex". We wouldn't have to put much extra width in that area to prevent those lines from wrapping, but those 2 changes combined would make much better use of the space. As it is now, nearly all effects are fine in the current box, and have a bit of room to spare, whereas I believe every single "Requires: X points in X" lines are being wrapped, and not by much. T0rin (talk) 13:21, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Also, I think liberal use of ColorPositiveStat and ColorNegativeStat will greatly help having the effect in the same section as description, to keep them visually separate. After I go over all the warrior and companion specialization trees, I'm going to start going back through and modifying the effects to include these. But, don't let that stop anyone else from helping. :) T0rin (talk) 13:28, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- I'd been listing requirements like "Requires: Entropy: 2" to save a bit of room. You get rid of the whole "points in" part and it's still pretty clear. It's not a whole lot, but it works. Any other opinions on the effects? Sounds like you're asking for what I had been doing already Torin, though I'm not sure I agree about re-listing all the upkeep/cost/whatever under the talent. It really is dependent on the parent and things that modify it. Tivadar (talk) 13:31, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to relist the core ability variables under the upgrade talents, but rather only list the core ability variables (upkeep, duration, cost, cooldown, etc.) in the template values (| duration, | cooldown, etc.), and list things that modify those values for upgrades under the upgrade's effect section. I'd prefer keeping those template values "pure", in that they are only used for actual abilities, not upgrades that might modify those abilities.
- Re: listing tree point investment requirements, I really didn't like listing them that way because of all the redundant use of semi-colons, just looks visually offputting. I'd rather take up 8 extra characters per spell/talent/upgrade that has one of those requirements, but I think that is more of a matter of taste. T0rin (talk) 15:40, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, it does look bulky, but to me at least, I'd rather better utilize the real estate taken by those skill rows than have an exceedingly long details column. Some abilities had upwards of 15 lines in the ability details area, which takes up nearly half of a 1024 pixel tall screen resolution in a maximized browser window, given the rather high level of line height used in the template. And you have all sorts of dead space to the right of 13-14 of those lines in the description area, because practically none of it was being used. Now it is being used at least. One recommendation maybe would be to remove the ability/upgrade description from the description area, and just leave the effect? And if they want to see they description, they can refer to the page itself. The description is really redundant given that the effect explained in the description is then just repeated in the effects section of the ability/upgrade. T0rin (talk) 15:46, March 16, 2011 (UTC)
One beneficial side-effect of moving the effects bit to the description section is that it is now a lot easier to spot where people put cooldown/duration/size/whatever in the effects rather than the proper template values. T0rin (talk) 18:49, March 16, 2011 (UTC)