My question to everyone is Do You Think The Grey Wardens Should Have The Power To Conscipt People Against Their Will? Yes or No? And Why You Think Yes Or No!!!!!
--Bepease22 (talk) 18:56, September 27, 2011 (UTC)Bepease22
In my opinion, no. The right of conscription gives the Grey Wardens a frightening potential for abuse of power. Plus, considering the overwhelming negative consequences of undergoing the joining, forcing people into the order is cruel and distasteful. Grey Wardens are not necessary to fight Darkspawn, they are only necessary to fight Archdemons. Condemning generations of people to early deaths by slowly poisoning them is simply wrong.
 Tekka Ijuin | Talk |
19:03, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
I believe that they should only be allowed to forcefully conscript during the blight, otherwise, no they shouldn't. Shepard-commander (talk) 19:05, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
Duncan makes a point about this, in a round about way. Can't recall his exact wording, but basically forcing conscription to a completely opposed recruit is counter-productive to everything. Of course it's obvious Duncan draws the line at being willing at first and then changing your mind. LOL Duncan also doesn't mind using events to his advantage to gain a willing recruit. But otherwise he's pretty firm that out right forcing a conscription isn't good for anyone. Zambingo (talk) 19:12, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
- What? Duncan forcefully conscripts any Origin that refuses him. Not to mention he killed Ser Jory when he decided he didn't want to go through with it. And don't give me the bullshit about him leaving Duncan no choice when he drew his weapon., that was self defense should anything happen (not that it worked). HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 21:07, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
- I know it's necessary to advance the plot, but in light of that point Duncan's behaviour seems odd since he has no qualms with forcing a completely unwilling Cousland into the wardens, as anyone playing the human noble origin and resists conscription will be able to tell you. Even weirder from an RP perspective is that when he forces you into the wardens you no longer have any option to complain about it. ;p
19:20, September 27, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Did he force them? I probably have to replay it again, but I thought that it would be more in the "using events to his advantage" category. I could have mis-remembered it, but I always thought that while he brought it up (and really pressured your higher-up) that it was your superior that forced you. Or death. In the Dwarf Commoner it was death/jail for the provings. Dwarf Noble was stuck in the Deep Roads forever. Dalish Elf - corruption. City Elf - death/jail for killing Arl's son (never did the other option). Mage - technically forced by First Enchanter. Noble - technically forced by parents.
- Also, the Jory thing, while I think was kind of harsh, was the "changed their minds after" type of thing. It really depends on how much Duncan warned him at the beginning. It seemed like Jory somewhat knew he wouldn't be around his family, but I don't remember if it was pretty much never seeing them again.
- But, I think it really depends. In a perfect Thedas, I'd rather have them not have it. But, as Thedas is, it'd probably be better to have it used very sparingly. Only if they REALLY need it. Like having a VERY low number of wardens/recruits and/or a lot of weak ones during a blight. As of this time in the game, at least, people shouldn't be hesitating to lend the GWs their armies, and if you could do it with 3 wardens, they shouldn't need hundreds.
- And, even if they do need it, they can't just grab anyone off the street. Exceptional fighters and those without children/spouses first, then the rest if truly needed.
--Ditehart (talk) 04:16, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Try it the HN origin and refuse him to see for yourself.
09:44, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Try it the HN origin and refuse him to see for yourself.
- Ditehart got it. Like many of us, I too have played DAO to absolute death. I've exhausted all dialogue options/situations with Duncan. Duncan does say what I was saying, but he has qualifiers of justification he holds to. The Human Noble is a "using the situation to his advantage" scenario. If the game had given the player the option of abandoning Duncan once we got to Ostagar, I believe given Duncan's stated viewpoint that he'd have just moved on with Alistair and the recruits that were there. On the flip side had the Human Noble or any Origin tried to change their minds once "the secret" was displayed... gutted. LOL BioWare should have put that in the game, it'd be an awesome throwback to the "chose your own adventure" paperbacks when you pick a path and end up dead three pages in. Zambingo (talk) 17:54, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Afterthought: Duncan is Captain Kirk. Kirk loves his Federation. Loves the Prime Directive and believes it is necessary, but given the situation he doesn't think twice about breaking that rule. Duncan states very clearly that forcing conscription is bad, but given the situation he has justifiable outs he gives himself for... making conscription your only real option. :D Zambingo (talk) 18:00, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Another thought: The Human Noble situation is also in part Duncan covering his ass. Duncan has already been told by the Teyrn that his children will not be Wardens. The Teryn is very firm about it. One of the scenarios that gets referenced in regards to conscription in the game is that while Wardens can conscript anyone they want, even princes, there is severe potential disaster with public and political relations in regards to such a person being conscripted. So here's Duncan faced with knowing the Teyrn was very vocal about his children not being Wardens, knowing a giant shit storm is generating with a Teyrn's castle being raided and his family being murdered AND a Warden is present during all this, here's Duncan knowing this child could be so good for the Wardens. So he covers his ass. He tells the Teyrn allow me to conscript your child and we're good. The Human Noble can refuse, but the agreement, the legal ass covering is already out in the open. If the Teyrn's child was a dumbass, Duncan probably would have left with the kid anyway out of kindness, but not forced the conscription. Zambingo (talk) 18:09, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- That mindset that Duncan displays is present in all origins, btw. When faced with such a promising recruit, with all options exhausted, he uses his Right of Conscription on an unwilling recruit. But it's not something he is happy about doing, it's not something he just does because. It is something he preaches against doing. But that's life. So full of grey and even more so when you're a Grey Warden. [/rimshot] Zambingo (talk) 18:16, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
Yes and No, If its during a Blight, or a Thawing, and you need Wardens to protect your country, then I say that Consripting someone is a understandable situatuion (or if they are a crimminal and are about to be executed then I dont think its a bad thing if you conscript them I mean you are saving their lifes) Depends I guess on the situation. However I feel that the best course of action is to look for those who volunteer to become a Grey Warden. --SirXblade (talk) 19:45, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but I got this impression Thedas of Dragon Age in general isn't very advanced about human (or rather sentient humanoid) rights. Dorquemada (talk) 21:00, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
- Touché :-) - Basically, I don't have a problem with the conscription (in the Thedas context), since no liege lord ever asked his vassals if they wanted to follow him into whatever conflict he took fancy in, anyway. For a total nobody, like Daveth, the Wardens were actually a better option than regular army, since his needs would have been seen to more efficiently. Oh, and if we talk about here and now: you can be drafted into the army in the time of need whether you wish or not, no? --Ygrain (talk) 21:54, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
I think they should have that power, yes. Sometimes in certain events some people fail to see what is good for them. For example Nathaniel was willing to be executed rather than being conscripted. But after being a warden he came to his senses in time, saw the error in the ways of his father, made peace with his past and, in my opinion, turned out to be a skilled Warden in the end. But I also think this should be a last resort for a Commander of the Grey, just like Duncan said. This right of the Wardens also a gamble and should be used very carefully as it's not wise to keep an enemy among your ranks if the recruited person makes that a personal vandetta. So I believe a Grey Warden Commander should be very wise about this kind of decision and ONLY use it if he really believes recruiting that person will greatly aid their fight against the Darkspawn and eventually making the recruit to come to terms with this decision as well. --Heartseeker (talk) 22:07, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
The Warden's are granted the right to conscript anyone by the government of what ever nation they are active in. Their is little or no risk of an abuse of power for this reason. Don't forget that most countries in the 21st century also posses the right of conscription, ie if your country goes to war - you go to fight, whether you like it or not; during WW1 the British Empire shot those accused of cowardice - even if they were suffering for the legitimate shell shock - and that's incomparable to what the Central powers would have done. What i'm saying is, this is common practice and as a citizen your expected to fight for your country. Why if 21st century western governments would do it, shouldn't the Grey Warden's. Their political neutrality as well as the fact that the ROC is granted by the governments provides what ever safeguards they might need. Alexsau1991 (talk page) File:SithEmblemTOR.PNG 23:00, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
- Even if it is common practice in some countries, that should not factor into an argument of whether an individual believes this practice is right or wrong. So drawing those comparisons is really little more than irrelevant fluff.
- Additionally, the Grey Wardens are a different kettle of fish than a government calling upon its citizens to defend one's country. They are essentially a foreign power that holds the right to forcefully remove citizens during peacetime, have them consume poison, drastically reduce their life spans, cut them off from daily lives indefinitely, and when their period of service is up... murder them or have them run to the deep roads and die fighting Darkspawn. It's not mere conscription, since that can end after a period of service. When you are made a warden, you are, for all intents and purposes, a slave to the order until you die.
- They also hold this power over the world of Thedas by jealously guarding their secrets, such as the formula for the joining, which would serve the world much better as free knowledge so that each nation where a blight begins could raise their own force of Grey Warden volunteers to tackle the Archdemon. Since they do not share this information they are effectively running a protection racket for purposes currently unknown. What that purpose might be however is a mystery to me as I cannot see any benefit from it whatsoever.
- ...And that's all I have to say about that.
23:48, September 27, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Pardon me, where is that "indefinitely" part? Both Kristoff and Keenan had their marital lives, albeit restricted. Had Jory survived, he would have been a Ferelden-stationed Warden and still could be in touch with his family, to some extent. Drastically reduced life-expectancy - now, that's from the contemporary point of view: living up to the fifties would actually be a better life expectancy than average in the Middle Ages, and I believe the Warden's shock over the reduction is an anachronism, unless the number of years is significantly lower. Consuming poison - if I'm not mistaken, at one point the American army imposed on its active members anthrax vaccination, which was far from safe, with imperfect protection and nasty side-effects. - While I am not claiming this is right, I do believe that dire situations may require dire measures.
- While I do agree that the chief Wardens may not be all goody-goody, I'd still support the secrecy. We're in not particularly enlightened times, with people's beliefs shaped predominantly by the Chantry - and you would have a common knowledge that in order to fight the local equivalent of devil, you must drink the devil's blood? I don't think this would bode well. --Ygrain (talk) 05:01, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- The indefinitely part comes from recruits remaining in servitude to the wardens until they die. We've already seen how the wardens handle those who defy them, Jory got a sword to the gut and Anders got hunted down to be dragged back kicking and screaming, just like he did in the Circle. Indefinitely applies in the truest sense of the word.
- The drastically reduced life expectancy is referenced in the games themselves, as it is stated multiple times that wardens die young.
- So America did some bad things to their soldiers? What's the relevance of that? Just because a real world power has done it in the past does not make this an acceptable practice when there is no archdemon to fight.
- Utter tosh! Even if they resisted at first, when the Chantry is overrun by Darkspawn the first thing they'd do is turn to the joining to get their Templars geared up to take down the archdemon. The wardens accomplish nothing by guarding that secret, and the only realistic benefit is maintaining their granted powers. And if those who control chantry lore need an excuse to justify this practice, they'll have a very clever person come up with a passage detailing how the heroic men and women of the order turned the Darkspawn's corruption into righteous fury and smote them to the last twisted man.
09:44, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Utter tosh! Even if they resisted at first, when the Chantry is overrun by Darkspawn the first thing they'd do is turn to the joining to get their Templars geared up to take down the archdemon. The wardens accomplish nothing by guarding that secret, and the only realistic benefit is maintaining their granted powers. And if those who control chantry lore need an excuse to justify this practice, they'll have a very clever person come up with a passage detailing how the heroic men and women of the order turned the Darkspawn's corruption into righteous fury and smote them to the last twisted man.
- Excuse me, Michael, but you haven't been reading me very carefully and you're putting things out of context. First: what difference does it make if you're killed in action, or during the Joining? And, since being killed in action is what regularly happens in any military service, people shouldn't be drafted when their country is in direct danger? And what about kings and liege lords, at whose commands people are also potentially indefinitely parted from their families? - And cOncerning the fate of those who defy or defect the Wardens: not really different from the fate of anyone who would defy the command of their liege lord. Kicking and screaming Anders was quite lucky, since deserters normally hang.
- I was pointing out that there is a discrepancy in the game between the time the taint leaves to the Wardens (about thirty years) and the actual life expectancy, which, given the conditions, might have been 40 - 50 years at best.
- Even during the inter-Blight periods, there happen raids of darkspawn now and then. It may not be entirely undesirable to have an elite groups of immune fighters at hand, since darkspawn do not notify of their attacks in advance.
- I do not doubt that during an imminent threat, the Chantry would gladly embrace anyone bringing help. But once the threat is over, and a new generation of people who have not experienced it themselves takes over, you're getting into trouble. Don't forget that you're in a world where literacy is not very high, access to information, not to mention the critical assessment, is limited - and you would have them maintain the knowledge of a practice which involves drinking the blood of creatures from ancient scary tales and which practically yells "blood magic". For two hundred years. Or even four hundred, as our case is. The memory, and credibility of the information, stands no chance after such a long time when it was practically useless. - Besides, how do you know that a Blight is starting? When the darkspawn start spilling to the surface? That's a bit late, isn't it, while sensing the Archdemon in dreams once it is awoken gives you time for preparation.
- Last, you basically say yourself. It would be very easy to invent a Chantry doctrine that would justify the use of darkspawn blood - and it would be equally easy to come up with one that would totally condemn it, and launch a witchhunt agianst anyone involved. Why should anyone want to do that? Well, last time I heard, reason is not a feature fanatics are famous for. --Ygrain (talk) 18:48, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- I will not excuse you, patronizing person, I am more than capable of carefully reading your text and my replies are perfectly within context.
- Soldiers being killed during the course of a conflict is not and was not relevant to my argument, so kindly don't invent arguments to defeat. If you refer back to my post you will see that my concern is with the way the order conducts itself. I cannot deign to judge and justify the standards by which each and every commander of every military force in the world treats its conscripts. The Wardens are my concern here, and I've made it perfectly clear that my problem is with the harsh treatment and conscription during peacetime, when there is no archdemon present to fight. If any other organization in the world did this, I would be against it just as much, thus rendering the entirety of your first paragraph utterly pointless. Well done.
- Wardens die young. Can we agree on that? This is canon. It is stressed several times within the game. Lives are cut short. Why are you even trying to dispute this with an unsubstantiated life expectancy in a fictional world?
- The Dwarves have handled Darkspawn raids for years without subjecting all their fighters to the joining. Why does the order need to be different? Warriors don't need to be joined in order to fight them, and if the taint is contracted on the battlefield in that case it would actually be humane to put them through the joining so that they may at least have a decade or two longer to enjoy their lives before eventually succumbing. Even I will admit sometimes, bad things are unavoidable.
- If the gaps between blights are long and people need to keep on their toes, the lorekeepers had better get organized hadn't they? You cannot say with 100% certainty that organizations that do not employ the joining regularly could not keep the knowledge alive across the centuries, just as I cannot guarantee that they would. It could differ from location to location, some might fail, some might not. But again, simply keeping knowledge alive does not in any way excuse the Wardens and their maltreatment of personnel. And of course, when the Darkspawn surge forth, there's no reason that unjoined soldiers cannot fight them, and when the archdemon is sighted the joining can begin. There's no way to tackle the archdemon before it emerges anyway! Why make your recruits suffer for four hundred years on the off chance that one might wake up tomorrow? It won't change the inevitable.
- And lastly, if some decide to do away with the knowledge. So be it, it's on their heads. We can speculate until the cows come home but that still doesn't excuse the way the wardens run their operation. It's oh so similar to the plight of mages, only instead of being locked in a tower waiting for death, they're sent down a hole to be torn apart by monsters. The cruelty should end. Reform the order or give the power to others.
19:35, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- And lastly, if some decide to do away with the knowledge. So be it, it's on their heads. We can speculate until the cows come home but that still doesn't excuse the way the wardens run their operation. It's oh so similar to the plight of mages, only instead of being locked in a tower waiting for death, they're sent down a hole to be torn apart by monsters. The cruelty should end. Reform the order or give the power to others.
Duncan is very aware that flinging Conscription around has the potential of stirring up a political shit-storm considering that the Wardens have only been back in Ferelden after a prolonged absence. An absence caused by their interference in local politics.
There are also two flavors of forced conscription in my thinking:
- Conscripting a subject against their will. The subject doesn't wanna go. They have reasons to stay right where they are, and given the choice, they'd rather that than being a Warden. Example: Duncan himself had no desire to join, and chose to be executed rather than join. Genevieve conscripted him out from under the chevaliers. Depending on your choices, the warden may have been dragged away against their will as well.
- Conscripting a subject against the will of authority. The subject may indeed want to go, but whatever authority governs their life will deny it. Bryce Cousland would have fallen into this category and he gets right up in Duncan's grill and demands to know if the Warden-Commander intends to drag the younger Cousland heir out from under his nose. Anders and Alistair also fall into this category, as the Templars and the Chantry (respectively) did not wish for either of them to be conscripted and the choice of both Warden-Commanders caused some tension with that faction.
Duncan takes a very conservative slant on conscription - he seems to only invoke it if the choice is join or die now. Although I'm still scratching my head over the conscription of Alistair just before the fifth Blight hit.
Yes - I do think they need that right. It was a power granted when the value of the Wardens was realized so they could replenish their numbers as needed. Of course, there is potential for abuse, and a commander who abuses it risks much. --+|| Legionnaire Scout -- talk ||+ 23:35, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I think they should have the right. If not, how many would actually enlist? No, you don't NEED Wardens to fight the rank-and-file darkspawn, but it helps. Regular army folk fighting the darkspawn would be at risk of corruption, due to the taint. LVTDUDE (talk) 00:11, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
The right of conscription is important because then the Wardens have the right to defy the authority--Gregoir, for example. And as for unwilling recruits, well, the mage warden faced tranquility, the dalish warden would die from the taint, the dwarf warden would die at the deep roads, and the human warden lost EVERYTHING--he basically had NOTHING to lose and might have ended up being killed by Howe's men anyway.
Well, when you consider that this is a medieval setting, pretty much any noble or king can dragoon people into armies. And apparently so can the Chantry, when you consider that Alistair really had no choice about going there in the first place, and did not want to be a Templar. At least you know that the Wardens have a good reason to force you to fight for them, and that's more than you can say for any given noble, monarch, or the Chantry.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 02:47, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
Against their will? I see that some are mentioning people who would rather be executed, is that really the type of person you want to join a highly secretive elite order? Most people like that would either end up messing something important up out of apathy or just run away at the first opportunity if not just offing themselves. And for people not in prison or anything like that, are you going to threaten them with death if they refuse? Are you going to start murdering foreign citizens in their own country? Either is a horrible decision. The merits of drafted/conscripted persons in a regular army like force is sketchy enough with an order such as the wardens the only type of people you will want to share your many secrets with are those showing at least some willingness to keep those secrets.174.45.9.40 (talk) 04:27, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Duncan of Highever was a convicted murderer who is conscripted against his will, spends months trying to run away, and then goes on to save one King of Ferelden, and drag a dishonored order out of the gutter and restore some faith in the Wardens of Ferelden before he dies fighting the Blight and defending another King. Not every cutpurse and murderer is worth the effort, but there are those who are. It's a chance for some to find purpose and redemption, where they had none before. --+|| Legionnaire Scout -- talk ||+ 23:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Outside of a fantasy setting things don't always turn out all peachy by the end, people like that end up getting themselves killed in one way or another(and I don't mean doing their job). The more I heard about the character the less I liked duncan is just a lame stereotype.174.45.9.40 (talk) 00:40, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
- Good thing we 'are' talking about fantasy then ;) Cause then there's the rise and fall of Teryn Loghain. Then there's Sophia Dryden, the Warden-Commander who preceded Duncan as the commander in Ferelden. A high born noble, she managed to get what members of the order who remained, massacred at Soldier's Peak and the entire order banished from the country. Duncan isn't a stereotype - that would be once a thief and murderer, always a thief and murderer. But he is a 'trope - the man with a dark past reforming himself and others and making a difference.
- The point being, in the end, that being a soldier or high born doesn't automatically make you useful, and being a thief doesn't make you useless. Wardens make a point of recruiting from all walks of life, without regard to station or rank. They seem to make a decision based on their assessment of the person's personality and ability. It brings to mind the Search from Dragonriders of Pern. It doesn't matter who you are, but who you are about to become. If you survive. --+|| Legionnaire Scout -- talk ||+ 00:47, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
- Never said anything about the person's stature in life mattering, just their willingness to join or not. And perhaps cliche would of been a better term to describe duncan.174.45.9.40 (talk) 00:51, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
- The point being, in the end, that being a soldier or high born doesn't automatically make you useful, and being a thief doesn't make you useless. Wardens make a point of recruiting from all walks of life, without regard to station or rank. They seem to make a decision based on their assessment of the person's personality and ability. It brings to mind the Search from Dragonriders of Pern. It doesn't matter who you are, but who you are about to become. If you survive. --+|| Legionnaire Scout -- talk ||+ 00:47, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
The Grey Wardens' stance on sharing the secret of the Joining is that even fewer people would volunteer to become Wardens if it came out. The combination of a.) drinking Darkspawn blood, b.) a good chance of dying from drinking said blood, and c.) an early death brought about by the taint taken from drinking the blood, means they have a good point there. The best candidates to join the Grey Wardens are those who are both willing and skilled enough to have a good shot of surviving the Joining and actually benefit the Order. The Chantry certainly could use their influence to mass-conscript people and Templars, but there's no guarantee that would help at all. For starters, a lot of them would die from the Joining (probably most of them, if they conscript ordinary farmers and such), and the leaders of the Templars likely wouldn't take kindly to being having to cut short their career of oppressing mages to get killed by Darkspawn (granted, many of the rank-and-file Templars are pious and righteous enough to go for it, but the collapse of the Chantry's authority as a majority of the Templars leave the Chantry to go butcher mages shows they've definitely grown use to their positions). And even then, being a Grey Warden only really grants 2 advantages: they can sense Darkspawn (which is really of rather dubious usefulness anyway) and they can kill the Archdemon. It doesn't make them any better at actually fighting them, so you don't need massive armies of Grey Wardens. Further, Duncan only conscripts the player against their will because they'll die otherwise, and they're much too talented to let slip. Since you end up being the most important figure in the entire war, he kind of has a point there. Although there is a definite potential for abuse in the Right of Conscription, it is, as Duncan explained, one that comes with serious risks if misused. Duncan has no intention of using it, for example, on a Human Noble PC until circumstances make it so that their parents won't oppose it (granted, those circumstances are that they're dying and the castle is being invaded), since Bryce was a Teyrn and could have been a very powerful enemy to him. And to the argument that they're only keeping the Joining secret so they can maintain their power: what power? With the exception of the Anderfels, which they basically run, the Grey Wardens hold a lot of prestige, but not a great deal of actual political power in Thedas, due in part to their policy of not getting involved in politics and internal disputes. It's even mentioned that when the Knight Commander becomes Arl of Amaranthine in Awakening that it's the first time a Grey Warden has held a title outside of the Anderfels. Although the First Warden might be keeping the Joining a secret to maintin their position in the Anderfels, the rest of the Order mostly keeps it a secret because it's the better choice: they don't need a massive army of Wardens, just an elite corps of several dozen to a few thousand, depending on whether there's a Blight. Although their prestige, military ability, and the Right of Conscription give them a certain amount of authority, none of that would actually be compromised if they let slip the secret of the Joining, but doing so would definitely see them no getting nearly as many eager, skilled recruits. They Wardens are a necessity, and occasionally they have to exercise their power of conscription. Until the rest of Thedas stops acting as if the Darkspawn don't exist unless there's a Blight and start hitting them where they live, the Grey Wardens will need to keep up their numbers, and that will sometimes require conscription.UrLeingod
- Your logic is fundamentally flawed. Free use of the joining ritual expands the potential pool of archdemon slayers regardless of the negative consequences of the procedure. It doesn't make sense to say it would contract it. Armies work on the basis that soldiers expect to have to give their lives for their country, and going through the joining to slay the archdemon is no different from this.
- Are you really serious with that stuff about templars turning a blind eye to the Darkspawn just so they can continue to oppress mages? That's also some pretty messed up logic. I can't even fathom how you could possibly justify that line of thought when the horde is at the gates.
- And the power issue. The Grey Warden order has the power to go where they please and recruit whom they wish, and requisition all the resources that they want. If you defy them, they will kill you. That's the power they have. It makes no sense otherwise to maintain the level of secrecy that they do, when freedom of information would empower the whole world to destroy archdemons.
11:38, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Well the main job of the Templars are to hunt down Apostates and Malifcarium. Unless a whole unit of darkspawn happen to be Emisarys then the Templars arent any better than Wardens. Plus they keep the joining a secret because no one wants to make that kind of sacrifice, Be able to hunt down darkspawn while sensing them but at the same time they can sense you? No thanks, Live for about 30 years? No thanks, Kill the archdemon and have your soul anhilated in the process? no thanks, Be hated by the rest of fereldan and thedas because of some paranoid general? no thanks. Also what makes the Grey Wardens understandable is that they themselves admit they arent heroes/saints themselves,
I agree that some of the practices they do tend to be a bit murky, but thats being a grey warden. Grey Wardens have to sacrifice a lot more than We can imagine.--SirXblade (talk) 18:30, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, messed up as the logic may be, the Templars do exactly that if you decide to save the Mages in the Broken Circle quest. There is really no reason that both the Mages and Templars can't help fight the darkspawn, and yet Knight Commander Gregoir seems to think otherwise.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:23, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- A perfect example of ill thought out plot points. But, the actual situation differs from the hypothetical situation because the templars receive no orders to march on the darkspawn and do not have the necessary knowledge to defeat an archdemon. Things would surely play out very differently if every fighting force had access to the materials and the knowledge that the grey wardens covet. I don't think the Darkspawn advance on the tower at any time during the game as well, so they're not exactly 'at the gates' either.
15:36, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- A perfect example of ill thought out plot points. But, the actual situation differs from the hypothetical situation because the templars receive no orders to march on the darkspawn and do not have the necessary knowledge to defeat an archdemon. Things would surely play out very differently if every fighting force had access to the materials and the knowledge that the grey wardens covet. I don't think the Darkspawn advance on the tower at any time during the game as well, so they're not exactly 'at the gates' either.
- Sure, why would they? It's a fortress on an island. It would be really hard to take. Why would they go after that when they can just destroy villages? But eventually there would be nothing left around the tower, and they would be under siege if not actually, then by default. And while they may not have assaulted the tower itself, we know that the darkspawn have raided around the dock, since that is where Sten and his comrades were attacked. Furthermore, what orders do they need? They have a knight commander, they can decide to attack or defend against threats other than mages- Meredith did exactly that when the Qunari attacked Kirkwall. There is no real excuse for a trained and capable militant order to not help defend against the onslaught of a force that will show no mercy. Because the rest of the world was ready to write Ferelden off. There was no help coming if the Warden and the army failed.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:56, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- It seems likely to me that the raiding party at the lake would have been dispatched by the Templars anyway, otherwise Sten and everyone living there on the bank would have died. I'm still not sure how exactly Sten got to Lothering from all the way up there.
- Keep in mind that the Templars in the tower are primarily a security force for keeping the mages under control, and that the Ferelden circle is small. The Templars there don't constitute an army like the masses of them in Orlais or the White Spire (I presume) would.
- This is difficult territory to argue on, since anything we can come up with is pretty indefensible. It's not until the endgame that the horde makes itself known to greater Ferelden and we have no idea what Greagoir's contingency plan in the event of the Warden's failure would be. He could very well lead the few forces he has against them, or just simply run, but we don't have enough information to make that call either way. Lack of time and lack of exposition.
- Ultimately, this isn't relevant to the point I want to get across anyway. It was only used as an example of how other forces would utilize the wardens knowledge and it should be applied to all armies, not just the templars.
- The more people have the power to fight and slay the archdemons the better off everyone is, surely that can't be disputed.
16:24, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- The more people have the power to fight and slay the archdemons the better off everyone is, surely that can't be disputed.
- But just because more people could take it upon themselves to Warden-up doesn't mean that they would succeed. The Joining has a very low success rate even when experienced Grey Wardens choose highly qualified candidates to do the ritual. And since failure to Join results in death, trying to make all available swordsmen Wardens would automatically drastically reduce the number of people around to fight any of the horde of darkspawn that stand between the Grey Wardens and the archdemon. (And, as someone said above, Wardens don't get to fight any better once they finish the Joining, so it's not like they can make up for the loss of cannon fodder.) Opening up the Joining to everyone would be a logistics nightmare.HELO (talk) 18:31, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously it would be foolhardy to put your whole army through the procedure, this goes without saying. But if the knowledge is freely available, as I keep saying, the Grey Wardens and their dubious protection racket scheme are no longer necessary. Select members of each country's army would be chosen or free to volunteer as an elite unit, not unlike modern day special forces. This completely eliminates the order's constant employment of the taint when there is no archdemon present. Sparing the lives and freedoms stolen away from all their would be conscripts across generations. It's win-win.
18:41, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Obviously it would be foolhardy to put your whole army through the procedure, this goes without saying. But if the knowledge is freely available, as I keep saying, the Grey Wardens and their dubious protection racket scheme are no longer necessary. Select members of each country's army would be chosen or free to volunteer as an elite unit, not unlike modern day special forces. This completely eliminates the order's constant employment of the taint when there is no archdemon present. Sparing the lives and freedoms stolen away from all their would be conscripts across generations. It's win-win.
- So it’s more like you’re advocating Grey Warden recruiting stations, with Wardening as a legit job choice for everyone (like joining the army or the guard or the templars)--but with a really, really tough boot camp where you’re 75% likely to die if you’re tough enough to get to the end. I think that would probably be good for everyone all around. (Keeping the Conscription option available when a Blight comes around, of course.) You’d still have to keep the details of the Joining ritual a secret. Not because of the near-guaranteed death rate, but because they are gruesome enough for the general population to call the good guy-ness of the Wardens into question. But I also think that the Wardens could legitimately advertise their death rate (“There’s a good chance that, if you get to the final test, you’ll die”) and still have a decent number of volunteers, with the “final test” rumored to be a trip to the Deep Roads to engage the enemy or something. And, of course, there’s nothing wrong with asking a talented guardsman or death row inmate if they’d like to join up. HELO (talk) 19:08, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds good to me, though ideally I'd prefer it if wardens were raised only during blights. But if there's no way accomplish that I would be satisfied with the wardens remaining a constant presence as long as they had the freedom to live their own lives and remain as reserves or "on call" as it were. Also give them the freedom to die with dignity instead of being tossed into the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn. I find it all so distasteful.
20:27, September 28, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- That sounds good to me, though ideally I'd prefer it if wardens were raised only during blights. But if there's no way accomplish that I would be satisfied with the wardens remaining a constant presence as long as they had the freedom to live their own lives and remain as reserves or "on call" as it were. Also give them the freedom to die with dignity instead of being tossed into the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn. I find it all so distasteful.
- I think it would be a terrible idea to only have Wardens during the Blight. If that were so, there probably wouldn't be any Wardens to face the 5th Blight at all. After 400 years, many (surface) people were willing to believe that the Darkspawn were gone. People are more than willing to pretend a problem doesn't exist when they don't have to face it. Also how do you mean "die with dignity"? Because the taint doesn't actually kill Wardens after their 30 years are up, it turns them into Ghouls. Did you see Ruck, or that old Warden in Legacy? How is that fate dignified? Going out fighting doesn't seem so bad in comparison.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 23:41, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Really? Do I really give cause for everyone to assume I hold this stupendous level of ignorance? No, clearly I didn't see it because I've never played Dragon Age, and I have absolutely no idea what the effects of the taint are. I just hang around here because I like the layout of the forums. I give up.
00:04, September 29, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Really? Do I really give cause for everyone to assume I hold this stupendous level of ignorance? No, clearly I didn't see it because I've never played Dragon Age, and I have absolutely no idea what the effects of the taint are. I just hang around here because I like the layout of the forums. I give up.
- Easy, I'm not attacking you. You said you would prefer that Wardens be allowed to die with dignity, I wanted to know what you had in mind, that's all. No need get defensive.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 00:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
- Bold faced assumptions make me sad. You also make me sad. Now I am sad and I don't want to play anymore.
00:39, September 29, 2011 (UTC) Tekka Ijuin | Talk
- Bold faced assumptions make me sad. You also make me sad. Now I am sad and I don't want to play anymore.
Ok then, fair enough. I do believe that the Wardens should have the Right of Conscription. Though, like most people, I think it isn't very productive to recruit people who would rather face death than join the cause.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 01:16, September 29, 2011 (UTC)