Forums: Index > Lore Discussion > Should Alistair Be King?
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Alright, before everyone starts shooting me down, hear me out. Alistair is the only existing heir to the throne. There's no denying that. However, I don't believe he is the logical and thus right choice for kingship. For one, he's a bastard. He's been out of the public eye for his entire life and it may be hard for the people to accept him as their rightful ruler. Secondly, he's had no experience with governing. Even with Eamon to help out, the amount of decisions and work will be an immense versions. He didn't even guide the Grey Wardens after Ostagar. He let our Warden lead. Many may argue that Alistair grew in the journey there's no doubting that. However, he lacks experience and training. Third: Alistair has a shortened life span. He is a Grey Warden and will die faster than a normal human. The result is, a shorter kingship and less time to get things done. After his death, Ferelden will once again be in turmoil because (fourthly) Alistair is sterile. His only relative is Goldanna, and she's his half sister. Without a true heir Ferelden is doomed.

Even a hardened Alistair will face these great troubles and fail to rule the realm effectively. This makes me question why Alistair's kingship has been deemed cannon. I personally believe that Anora should be made queen. Yes she's a bitch, but all of the major faults I just listed don't apply to her. So what do you think? Should Alistair's kingship be considered cannon. Why was it? Is he the best king for Ferelden?

(I've definitely been reading too much George R.R. Martin)

--ChaseDarkness4101 (talk) 04:49, January 11, 2013 (UTC)ChaseDarkness4101

Alright, first my counter argument against Anora. She is not fit to rule because, 1, She ignored the fact that her father blatantly killed her husband in cold blood. Now, I understand, Cailan divorcing her is slight to her, inviting Oralis, considering Ferelden's past is a brash choice, but that's not justification for what Loghain did, and Anora's blatant disregard for her father's actions shows just as much 'Lacking' leadership as I would argue for Alistair dumping responsibility on the Warden. No I'd say it's worse because the man that killed her husband is right there. 2, While it isn't confirmed the Cailan wasn't the sterile one, we are also lead to believe that there is potential it could be Anora as well.
Now, why should Alistair be King? Because he actually fought for the country he tried to save, against the monsters everyone else ignored. If you harden him he studies goverance and becomes a great politician. He is not sterile, he just has a low chance of producing a child, it could happen, if you made him single and he made like his dad and tried to father some bastards of his own. Finally, he's a good guy, while the Game sets up Parallels, like Behlen and Harramount to compare to Anora and Alistair, there's a big difference between the two. Harramount is a cowardly conservative who's traditionalist senses make him restrict the castses. Bhelen is the asshole reformer, who makes a better future. I see Alistiar being a better reformer than Bhelen and a better man than Harramount because his moral sense, and personal ire against the Chantry would drive him to make things better for the country socially. Anora would stagnate social progression of Ferelden merely to keep her power, as she does when she back stabs you if you don't support her, like Bhelen, only her pick means everything stays the same.
Or, third potential you marry him with Anora and they become fantastic Monarchs, together, but I'd still take Alistair alone any day than that blind wench. Konous (talk) 05:55, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

This topic is very old and was discussed on many older forums. It's obvious that people betray you if you refuse to support them in real life. If you think Bhelen or Anora are evil, when they betray you after you refuse to support them, then by this logic whole humanity is evil. Everyone in real world turns against you if you refuse to help. That's not evil, that's logic. You simply dislike Anora and Bhelen, that's why you call them evil and their turning against you is only an excuse. You say turing against father is evil, I turned against mine, when he abused my mother. Anora began to realise her father began to lose senses. Patriotism and lust of power were their directions. If you think desiring power is evil, then you should condamn whole humanity, because "Everybody wants to rule the world".

Good ruler isn't prosocial, it's someone, who doesn't let other manipulate him/her. I think hardened Alistair and Anora together are best option. She's smart and capable of governing and he often thinks about people. I think they are good match like in ME3 Urdnot Wrex and Eve. Besides if Wrex also turns on you, it's only because you betray him. I don't want puppet monarchs or ones easily to manipulate, I'm not blinded by too great ambitions, I want kingdoms to evolve industrially and puppet monarchs without their puppeters only ruin their countries and the Warden is gone.

Still I suggest to redirect this topic on other existing forum, because topic is identical. (talk) 07:08, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

What? No you misunderstand I don't hate Bhelen, I do think he's a dick though. He does help Orzammar MORE than Harramount though because he is Pro social though, so I pick him every time. But belive me if I could have made Oghren king I would have.
I don't think pursuing Power is evil, power is necessary to survive, why I found Morrigan so right, but by the same extent I'd prefer those that pursue Power be good people.
And the game DOES seem to point out that the best rulers are the Prosocial ones cause they make the happiest endings. Konous (talk) 12:40, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

I know this topic has been covered before, but there are always new people coming to the Wiki, and it's interesting to hear new viewpoints.

I think that Ferelden's tradition of the Landsmeet has them well set up to almost be a democracy. They seem to want a figurehead on top, however, and that figurehead needs to be someone who can inspire them to work together. Calenhad's bloodline is the only one they've had ruling them until now, but this is the Dragon Age - it was predicted to be a time of great change, and I think that having figureheads that aren't tied to one bloodline, but are there due to personal merit, could be accepted.

I don't think Alistair should be king, because he is a link to the old, potentially stagnating way of thinking. Much as I personally like him, he doesn't have the necessary quality of inspiration. The poor guy is barely mentioned, even by his companions, if he sacrifices himself to kill the Archdemon. I think Fergus Cousland is a good temporary ruler, in that he has some experience to get the country running smoothly again in the immediate aftermath of the Blight, and is a good 'neutral' person to be involved in diplomacy with the Orlesians. Although in the game I choose to make Anora the sole ruler, her decision to make Loghain the regent always seemed baffling given that she herself said that she didn't want to have a man interfering with her rule. She had what she wanted - the crown, and her father available to oversee the armies - and gave it away for plot reasons, it seemed like. On a personal level, I dislike that Anora did nothing to make the lives of the City Elves easier while she was in power with Cailan. Given more options than either her or Alistair on the throne, I'd choose "other". -Sophia (talk) 11:55, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Anora is too much of her father to keep peace all'round. Like, she is unable to treat the city elves with the respect they deserve as Fereldan citizens. It is stated in epilogue that Anor aon her own was unable to control the cituation, whereas Alistair was able to. I think it is like this: Anora> Alistair, Anora = Hardened Alistair, Anora+Alistair=the most stable Ferelden. Henio0 (talk) 13:47, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Alistair does just fine as king because the epilogue says so. As for the fertility issue- he is NOT truly sterile. He simply has a low chance. So yes, he can be an effective ruler and yes he can produce an heir. As for the shortness of his reign- length isn't everything. ----Isolationistmagi 16:55, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, Anora is probably the best choice, but (similar to Bhelen), she (retracted) me off too much to have her rule alone, so I had her marry Alistair (which I think is the best all around option I had).--Legionwrex (talk) 17:00, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

@ChaseDarkness4101 I agree with most of what you wrote, but Alistair is not sterile. The Joining just makes it more difficult to conceive a child, but it is still possible. The Dark Ritual proves this. Ferelden is not doomed without an heir. The Bannorn would just elect a new king. Alistair's claim was deemed valid because Eamon wanted someone other than Anora on the throne. He figured she, like her father, could not be trusted. Plus, he knew Alistair would turn to him for help. Another thing about Alistair is that he didn't want to be king. Normally that is actually a good quality in one who will be a good leader, but if you spare Loghain Alistair changes his mind JUST to gain the power and authority to execute Loghain. That's not how a responsible leader acts. Regarding Anora, I agree that she is the better leader. However, she is still a weak leader. She was used and almost discarded by her husband Cailin. She was kept in the shadows despite her desire for recognition for her service and accomplishments on the throne. She was usurped by her father. She was captured and could have been killed by Howe. She could not unite the Landsmeet herself. This is why I say that the best option is for the Human Noble to rule. He or she is Teyrn/Teyrna of Highever, which puts him or her as next in line to rule Ferelden. In my canon game, the male Cousland marries Anora. This ensures that a noble family takes the throne through the Cousland, that the law is upheld through the Teyrn title, and that governing experience stays on the throne through Anora. Joint rule is the best option.

@Konous In Anora's defense, she didn't ignore the fact; she was furious over it, but there was nothing she could do about it. Anora favors progress as well. And unlike Alistair she's in a better position to implement the necessary changes because she already knows the job. The reason she wants to keep her power and will stab you in the back is because she believes Alistair is incompetent (he gives every indication of being so), and she also believes she holds the best chance for Ferelden to become prosperous. She doesn't trust anyone but herself.

@-Sophia Good point about Alistair representing stagnation through continuing the practice of bloodline recognition. As for Fergus, I don't see what he brings to the table. He only ever led a group of soldiers, and the darkspawn beat them. He is only Teyrn if the human noble died in Highever. Anora didn't make Loghain regent. He declared himself that (Bann Teagan says so). The situation with the elves isn't all on Anora. Denerim is overseen by an Arl, not by the King/Queen. It just happens to be where the capital is located. But according to the epilogue Anora did have to get involved if the elves riot. Believe it! (talk) 22:23, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's the stagnation that gets me though. If we look at DA, I think it takes the argument that most if not all governments and societies are corrupt and create their own social evils, regardless of how that government or social system is implemented. It's not a question of how these societies should change to make "progress" but how should they change to make the general populace more happy, or more free. Changing the blood line I don't think betters Fereldan in the way. I think putting a King who will actually strives to make things better as a conscious part of his rule does. And I'd say in Alistair's defense, Loghain killed his mentor and his brother. As a King, killing him as an act of justice establishes his rule, people see that he doesn't allow himself to screwed with, or Fereldan for that matter. Respect is a mix of fear and understanding, I think. Konous (talk) 00:39, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

I thought the question was who was best able to make those positive changes. Changing the bloodline shows that Ferelden is not hung up on bloodline rule just for the sake of bloodline rule. It shows that they favor the best one for the job, not the one who carries certain genes. I disagree. Alistair killing him in that way would seem like vengeance. Justice would be to imprison Loghain to await trail for his crimes. Believe it! (talk) 20:28, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
Positive Changes. Changing the bloodline of the Therein's doesn't necessarily mark a Positive Change, just a Change. I think Alistair's and Maric's success as Kings is warranted to the fact that both were paupers before they ruled. Anora was raised fromt he day she was born to be The Queen. Konous (talk) 16:59, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all the feedback guys! I'm just really interested in the fact that the DA writers made Alistair's kingship somewhat cannon. After all, in all the books he's considered other then creating an exciting story, do you think this was the right choice for the current DA writers. I personally believe that the original choice was meant to be exactly that...a choice. As pointed out here, different people have different opinions of this matter. However, the writers chose to make Alistair's kingship somewhat cannon. There have been threads over if Alistair's becoming the main character of the Dragon Age world. Why would they do this? Thoughts? --ChaseDarkness4101 (talk) 04:35, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

It's... it's spelled "canon", by the way. Also, Alistair as king isn't canon, it's "what if". Why would the writers make Alistair the main character? Well, if they need a main character then making him the main would make sense because he has the family name tied to him that can be explored, as well as his possible rule over Ferelden. Personally, I would make a main character out of Morrigan since her life seems to be more mysterious and interesting. Believe it! (talk) 20:28, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
Just gotta be a nitpick, right Believe? I think the hardest evidence for Alistair becoming king as canon is the fact that Cailan sends Alistair to the Tower of Ishal. Now this sounds crazy, but here's my logic, The Warden's purpose as a character is to function as a form of Main Character and Narrator. Your actions and decisions through dialogue CHANGE this world around you. The story is technically in our hands, but Cailan, as a part of the story's background, one of the few characters whose fate we can't change, makes certain that Alistair is safe in the Tower, rather than fighting on the ground with Loghain. If you try to go alone, Cailan insists that Alistair go with you. I think because Cailan didn't trust Loghain and had a feeling that the Hero of The River Dane would betray him. Your purpose, you could argue as The Warden is to ensure Cailan's last will, that the Therein blood line is preserved, and Alistair made king. Konous (talk) 16:59, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Alistair is of royal blood, he is the only one that should be king. Anora and Logain are usurpers of the throne. --Elshiro (talk) 05:35, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

By your logic Warden Cousland is same usurper as Loghain, also has no royal blood. Ferelden has such law, a noble can become royal by marrying a monarch. Marriage of Anora and Cailan was arranged when they were teens. Loghain freed Ferelden and became a noble, so his family. In history were examples of commoners becoming nobles for heroic acts, in Poland one soldier disabled enemy's cannon and a shoemaker for protecting Warsaw. (talk) 07:17, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
Eh, the Cousland does have "royal" blood, but the law also supports the Cousland. But there is no law about royal blood being better than anyone else's. Loghain was a usurper because of his actions against the king and queen. Anora was not a usurper because she wasn't involved in those actions. Believe it! (talk) 20:28, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Everybody keep in mind that Thedas isn't Earth, and while based on a true story, the same rules don't apply. Just because the ideas are based on outdated medieval custom doesn't make them outdated for them. For all of the faulty logic, it's not about what's fair or who makes the best leader, these cultures follow rule-by-bloodline, so in that way, yes, Alistair is the "best, most fair" choice to be king in the minds of Fereldans. The only way to change this is to establish rule by the people and get rid of the monarchy/aristocracy entirely, good kings are never elected (that saying has several meanings, see if you can find them all). The only thing you can do as the player is play the puppeteer (trust me, the irony isn't lost on me), in which you set things up in a way that leaves the country strong should the worst come to pass. A little off-topic now, this is the rationale I use for making my progressive Warden the chancellor to a hardened Alistair married to Anora, instead of taking the throne himself. RShepard227 (talk) 17:43, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, that's not true. If the custom character doesn't persuade the Bannorn to vote for him/her, then it will side with Loghain. Royal blood is not favored, but it is considered in determining who is eligible for the throne. Believe it! (talk) 20:28, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
My point remains valid. They submit to rule by a monarch, and monarchs often derive their authority from some kind of god-given blessing, more than the consent of the governed. This is how the people of Ferelden think, and one person, even the eventual Hero of Ferelden, isn't going to change that. Not that the Landsmeet matters, it all comes down to a duel anyway. RShepard227 (talk) 00:05, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think that Logain is still a usurper and the Lands Meet decision is evidence of that. He has no tie to the throne at all, like Arl Eamon, they are distant family to the true King Maric, both by marriage of someone from their line to Maric's. Logain used his power, lies, and popular influence to get him to the point at the Lands Meet where the nobles would concede to someone without the royal bloodline. In no way should the father of the queen become king. --Elshiro (talk) 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, Anora is a scheeming, backstabbing and lying bitch, that alone is enough to make Alistair king. Secondly, the epilogues very clearly show that even when un-hardened, Alistair makes a far more well received, kind and fair monarch than Anora. Furthermore, I wouldn't even consider putting a person that betrayed me twice, despite my saving her, instead of my most loyal comrade, who has stayed and followed me through each struggle.--R0B45 (talk) 09:18, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Quoth Plato: `Power should be denied to all those who seek it`. Anora has no principles that she holds to - she sides with whoever is most beneficial to her at the time. She betrays you and lies to Cauthrien to make sure she gets out of Howe's estate, then immediately goes to Eamon. Whether she supports you at the Landsmeet basically depends on whether you promise her the throne or not. Given that Alistair is more honest, more reliable, generally nicer, and more concerned with serving than being served, I'd definitely have him on the throne rather than Anora. I do think the best option is both of them on the throne, but that's more to do with salvaging Loghain (so I can throw him at Archie) and ensuring peace than about her merits. TheTeaMustFlow (talk) 12:16, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I liked Alistair. I really did. Right up until the point where Loghain is defeated in the duel at the Landsmeet. Riordan and Anora both put forward solid, logical arguments as to why Loghain should be spared and forced to undergo the Joining Ritual to become a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens are supposed to do whatever is necessary to defeat the Blight, no? If Loghain were to survive the Joining, there would be four Grey Wardens instead of three, and their chances of defeating the Archdemon becomes that much better. If Loghain doesn't survive the Joining, then Justice has been served for all the crimes he commited. Well, Alistair wants no part of it! He becomes an emotional little turd who places his own selfish desires above what is best not only for Ferelden, but all of Thedas! And if you spare Loghain, Alistair throws a tantrum like a four year old, and leaves. Really, Alistair? You're one of only a handful of Grey Wardens in Ferelden during a Blight, and you're just leaving? You didn't get what you wanted, so to hell with it? The affection that I once had for Alistair turned to stone cold hatred. Now, I will admit that Anora might not be the nicest person. She's cold, she's ruthless, and she desires power. But unlike Alistair, she's not a fool, and she doesn't act like a spoiled child.--Jay9 (talk) 21:22, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand, making Loghain a Warden is like making Hitler the protector of Jewish history. Henio0 (talk) 21:28, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Loghain wouldn't be the first murderer and criminal snatched from the gallows by the Wardens. Alistair's precious Duncan was just such a one.--Jay9 (talk) 23:30, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
His murders weren't my point. My point was that the guys he had killed, were Wardens. It isn't normal to recruit enemy soldiers into your army after they killed 95% of it. Henio0 (talk) 23:45, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Warden-Commander Genevieve recruited Duncan after he had murdered her husband who was also a Warden. If anyone had a right to hold a grudge it would be her. But she saw that Duncan had skill and that he would be an asset. Wardens do whatever is necessary. Even if it is personally distasteful.--Jay9 (talk) 23:52, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Well, yes. I'm not arguing against recruiting Loghain, as this is the sort of thing Wardens do. I am only trying to point out that Alistair's behaviour is not baseless, as the man did cause the deaths of The Warden-Commander along with all of his army, the king and his army, mages who were at Ostagar, Chantry sisters, elves working at the camp, and the mabari. Killing a person in battle shows skill. Betraying people shows no skill to befit a Warden, is all I'm sayin'. Personally, my best-case scenario is hardener king Alistair and Loghain recruited.
I see what you're saying, and I agree to a point. Loghain's betrayal was certainly a terrible blow to Ferelden. If not for the Warden Treaties, Ferelden would have been crushed by the Darkspawn. And Alistair did have every right to be angry. But I just can't condone his behavior, whether it was justified or not. He gave in to his emotions when he should have kept a clear head. And what if Loghain had charged the Darkspawn Horde at Ostagar? Wasn't the battle already lost? I'm honestly not sure he and his men would have prevailed, which would have left Ferelden in an even worse position than it was with his betrayal.--Jay9 (talk) 00:19, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
You could have a hardened Alistair marry Anora and then put Loghain through the joining and throw him at Archie (as stated above.) this makes everyone happy... more or less. B.S.S.T. (talk) 21:45, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Alistair still refuses to fight in the final battle though, doesn't he? All because he can't stand the sight of Loghain. Again, his selfishness is overriding what little common sense he has. All the lore that the Grey Wardens have collected over the centuries tells us how terrible Blights truly are. The shortest Blight to date was the Fourth Blight, and even it lasted for twelve years and devastated much of Thedas. Of course, we as players know that the Archdemon of the Fifth Blight can be defeated by the Warden, with or without Alistair and Loghain. But the characters in the game don't know that. How many lives were lost that could have been saved if Alistair acted like a grown-up for once and put his differences with Loghain aside, at least temporarily? Maybe none, but also maybe alot.--Jay9 (talk) 22:27, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
How many lives were lost by the hands of Loghain alone? --Elshiro (talk) 22:32, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
Without a doubt, Loghain has many crimes to answer for. But a good military commander will never waste an asset, and regardless of how you or I feel about Loghain, he would be a good asset. As I wrote in an earlier post, the Wardens do whatever is necessary, even if it's personally distasteful.--Jay9 (talk) 05:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Loghain also made an alliance with worst scums of Ferelden and beyond like Howe and Uldred or Caladrius. Maybe I am emotional, but as Cousland or Mahariel or Tabris I couldn't forgive Loghain for supporting that scum and selling elves. Loghain wasn't necessary to defeat Archie in the end. He's a fallen hero and he dies like as a criminal he was. Yet he was one I hated, not Anora. I made an alliance with her and married hardened Alistair with her, epilogue sounds positive. I saw her governing skills useful, people don't betray you if you give them no reason. Same was with Nathaniel fact I hate his dad doesn't mean I hate him, I cannot hate people who did nothing to me (Anora didn't betray me to Cautrien, because I wanted to slaughter her, noone had right to punish me for my revange on Howe). (talk) 22:47, January 13, 2013 (UTC)Just call me Dalish fan.

I honestly don't see how any of you could even consider sparing Loghain after all he has done. Do you not see why Alistair feels that way about him? It isn't selfishness, Loghain is the reason why the Wardens are dead. It's no different than what Howe did to my Warden, and if they tried to recruit Howe into the Grey Wardens, I would most certainly react the same way, except with less talking and more killing.--R0B45 (talk) 22:57, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I never said that Loghain was blameless in all of this. He is a once great man who let his paranoia and hatred of Orlais cloud his judgement. Arl Howe was also whispering poison in his ear, which certainly didn't help matters. Whatever crimes Loghain did or did not commit isn't the issue here though. Alistair's fitness for the throne is, however. And judging by the way he conducted himself at the Landsmeet, I don't believe he is worthy to sit on the Ferelden Throne. Arguments could (and have) been made about Anora's fitness as well. But I think she could be a better ruler than Alistair. Especially if there's a Cousland sitting beside her as Prince-Consort. --Jay9 (talk) 23:25, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

What exactly did Alistair do at the Landsmeet that made him seem unworthy?--R0B45 (talk) 05:46, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

@RShepard227 Okay, well your first point was about bloodline rule, so that's what I responded to. As for submitting to monarchs, that's not true either. The Bannorn holds the power, not the king. This is why the candidates must appeal to the Bannorn at the Landsmeet for election to the throne, and it is why the Bannorn rejected Loghain's authority as well as Anora's. As for the duel, the only reason the Landsmeet agreed to it was to bring one side into compliance with the Bannorn. Regardless of who it supports, Loghain yields to the Warden. Therefore the Bannorn ends up supporting the Warden either directly or through Loghain.

@R0B45 Alistair lies about the Joining and its effects, as well as his own lineage. He stabs you in the back if you spare Loghain. Anora only lies if you make it clear to her that you don't support her. She favors herself over Alistair to sit on the throne for good reason. She believes she has Ferelden's best interests at heart, and she is genuine in her dedication to her people. She doesn't stab you in the back if you don't stab her in the back first. As for sparing Loghain, my main character did it out of love for Anora, to make a good example out of Loghain, to give Loghain the opportunity to redeem himself, to have him meet justice either by dying in the Joining or against the archdemon, and to prevent Alistair's death. My Cousland also gave Howe the chance to surrender (in my head canon). It's about meeting evil with justice, not revenge. Alistair proved unworthy of the throne when he tried claiming that which he did not want just for the purpose of killing Loghain. He wasn't in it to help or lead Ferelden. He also ignored his duty as a Warden just to get revenge. He was also a poor leader to begin with, and he refused to trust the Warden's decision.

Not telling me right away isn't the same as lying. Anora betrays me BEFORE she asks for my support, and she is just a greedy woman with a lust for power. The things Loghain did are far from redemption, and giving him the chance is something he doesn't desearve. In my opinion, 4 out of the 6 origins have a direct reason to kill loghain even if Alistair was out of the picture. He worked with Howe, Uldred and Tevinter slavers to "save" Ferelden, not to mention hiring an assassin to kill me and directly opposed me throughout the course of the game. You make like to think that giving people like that a "chance to redeem themselves" is the right thing to do, but do you think you would actually do so if they were at your mercy? If someone killed everyone you cared for, would you really be so merciful? Mercy is not justice.--R0B45 (talk) 09:00, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
Keeping the truth from you is the same thing as lying, especially when asked. Alistair hid the specifics of the Joining and its effects out of a sense for the "greater good". Anora betrayed you because you exposed her presence to Cauthrien. She saw you as the betrayer. Her lie to Cauthrien was the best way to get herself out of your mess that she could think of at that moment, which she later admits was a terrible thing. I consider Alistair's deception to be far worse, seeing as how my custom character was tainted for no reason. At least Anora's deceptions have reason to exist, and can be countered (if those deceptions even exist in the first place). Loghain doesn't deserve the chance, you're right. But I think Ferelden deserves it. Having a fallen hero become that which he hated end the blight with the final blow is a testament to Ferelden honor and the Grey Warden spirit. It also serves as an example that even the best of men can fall to such depths, but despite that they can rise again to accomplish something righteous for the good of all. In the end, Loghain understood what it meant to be a Grey Warden, and he did his duty, unlike Alistair. Believe it! (talk) 22:23, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
I don't recall being able to specifically ask "are you the heir to the throne", and Alistair doesn't purposely keep any Warden information from you. You are told that everything will be told to you in time, no one expected that all the Wardens would die like they did. Anora having a convieniant excuse for betraying me doesn't make it less of a betrayal, I was asked to save her and was betrayed for doing so. Alistair offers to take the final blow, even if he is hardened and wants to be king. Who did their duty as a Grey Warden in the end? Loghain slaying the archdemon gives redemption that he doesn't desearve, one that will disregard his damning actions earlier.--R0B45 (talk) 00:50, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
I'm just wondering, where do you get the "greater good" reference from for Alistair not explaining the specifics of the Joining? I had thought that the ritual was a secret because a lot of people wouldn't understand the necessity of such sacrifice, as Duncan says. Alistair doesn't have the authority to simply go against that. After that, the player learns about the effects as they are experienced, or when they come up in conversation. I don't recall Alistair purposely hiding any of it.
Regarding Anora, Loghain does explain that Anora overheard Howe's suggestion to Loghain that Loghain kill Anora, and although Loghain refused, Anora used that conversation as the inspiration for her story that her life was at risk. He says she is a politician who knows "how to move people"; that having the Warden 'rescue' her gave her pleasure, on top of the desired result of positioning the Warden to stand up to the Landsmeet. You could argue that she needlessly put the Warden and the Warden's companions' lives at risk, as well as subjecting the Warden, and possibly Alistair, to torture if they were taken to Fort Drakon. It's manipulation, rather than betrayal, but it's still quite galling. Anora might care about some Fereldans, but not the ones who potentially threaten her rule, or who can be tricked into helping her, regardless of the danger to them, it seems.
I, too, am disappointed that Alistair can't accept Loghain as a Grey Warden, but I understand it and can forgive it. I don't think there is anything that can 'redeem' Loghain for what he did except a lifetime where every waking second is spent sincerely seeking atonement, and find myself angry on behalf of all the people whose deaths he caused that he is remembered as a hero if he dies killing the Archdemon. -Sophia (talk) 01:18, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

@TheTeaMustFlow Alistair seeks the same power the very second he discovers a reason to use it: to kill Loghain. Anora only said that to Cauthrien because she was afraid she would just take her back to Loghain. If captured, Anora will go to Eamon and admit she may have done a terrible thing. She also apologizes for it, but feeling exposed she saw no other option. If she lies at the Landsmeet it is either because she thinks you're going to put an incompetent child on the throne, or out of love for her father, whom she thinks you will execute. I don't excuse her lies, but I understand her motives.

@Jay9 I agree with you on how Alistair acted, but I don't hate him for it. Just disappointed in him. I understand why he felt that way though. Still I think he should have trusted his friend in making that decision, especially if that friend is a Cousland. As for Loghain, if the battle at Ostagar was lost, it's only because Loghain intended for it to be lost. He refused to wait for Orlais, and it was his battle strategy that Cailin followed. If that strategy was ineffective then Loghain should not have suggested it. I think the best outcome is joint rule between Queen Anora and the Cousland King. Believe it! (talk) 08:03, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

A male Cousland Warden cannot become king, at least not in name. They are "Prince-Consort", which does sort of put them close to the role of king, but since the confirmed sovereign is Anora in that case, they're not the king. The difference is really just the name, since one could assume that the Warden would be concerned with their role as Commander of the Grey and it would take precedence while their wife takes care of day-to-day matters of court in the capital. EzzyD (talk) 23:50, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

@R0B45 Once you get to Lothering you have the choice to ask him about his past. Somewhere at the end he says something like, "there's really not much more to say". He also admits that he lied if you make a big deal out of him not mentioning being Maric's son. He most certainly does keep Grey Warden info from you, before and after the Joining. I didn't say Anora didn't betray you. I said she only betrays you IF you expose her first. You were asked to save her from her father. Cauthrien is Loghain's blindly loyal lapdog. Loghain did not take the final blow hoping it would clear his name. He says he doubts it will. He only wants to do it to set right all the wrong he did.

You've based all statements on "ifs", and if that is the case, Alistair proves to be a fine leader and king if you harden him. He clearly states that he is not allowed to reveal anything about the Wardens until after the joining, after which he tells you what he knows in party camp conversations. Nothing Alistair did or didn't do could be considered betrayal, whereas Anora does it without hesitation twice. It should also be noted that I won the fight where she betrayed me to Cauthrien, so it was senseless for her to do so. Telling me why I was betrayed doesn't make it less of a betrayal, I know now after 16 playthrough what each dialogue option envokes, but in my initial "canon" playthrough, I was betrayed twice. It should also be noted that even if you don't pledge your support for her to claim the throne, she still states that she will support you, as Loghain must be stopped.--R0B45 (talk) 06:52, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

@-Sophia I didn't get the "greater good" from Alistair, but I heard Duncan say it once. I am applying that to Alistair's reason for not talking about the Joining. He probably thought hiding the truth from new recruits was all for the greater good. When in camp after leaving Lothering Alistair talks about the nightmares. You have the option to ask if there are any more surprises you should worry about, and Alistair answers saying that's pretty much it. Thus he purposely hides the 30 year life span fact from you. Howe was holding Anora. That means her life was at risk whether she knew it or not. That is just Loghain's opinion that Anora derived some pleasure from it. She did nothing to position the Warden to stand up to the Landsmeet. The Warden never needed Anora for any of it. In fact, the Warden can win the Landsmeet even if Anora works against the Warden. Her being captured was a problem for Eamon though. If Howe had killed her or kept her locked up, he could accuse Eamon of killing the Queen. But killing Howe was always on the Warden's schedule anyway. Anora could not have foreseen them being captured or taken to Fort Drakon. If that is what happens she informs Eamon immediately so a rescue attempt can be made. She reached out to the Warden because she genuinely needed help. She offered her own in return.

In Alistair's defense, the Grey Warden's kept secrets from him too. I'm pretty sure he mentions dying young after the Nightmare bit, once you've gotten enough approval to keep asking him questions. But he does elaborate on it more later and says "Oh right, Duncan never told you." Insert thirty years segment here. I think he assumed you already knew about that. Also, mentioning that someone has thirty years to live when they're probably already depressed about the fact that they and everyone they know will die because there's a fucking Blight seems kind of incidental, don't ya think? Compared to you know, abandoning you to Cauthrien, like some other blonde bimbo.Konous (talk) 12:25, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

@EzzyD Prince-Consort is just something Anora made up to try and retain authority on the throne. She even admits it's BS if you press her on it. The male Cousland states that both he and Anora will rule, and that is what the Bannorn agrees to. Therefore the male Cousland is the king and Anora is the queen. They rule jointly. Believe it! (talk) 06:12, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

What Konous says below is true. The Cousland Warden may rule "jointly", but it's Anora who pulls the strings, not them. The position of being Anora's consort is more symbolic than anything else; you marry a woman, a woman who happens to be queen, but that does mean the husband automatically becomes royal as well. EzzyD (talk) 18:21, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
Regarding Anora positioning the Warden to stand up to the Landsmeet, I should have specified that I meant stand up to them for her. You're assuming that Loghain's opinion on her motives is incorrect, and you may be right. I was going by the toolset, where the writers seem to be pointing to Anora's reasons as being self-evident (Loghain says that the Warden already knows the answer when he is asked about Anora's motives. The notes and instructions to the voice actor all indicate that there is no doubt in Loghain's mind about any of what he says). I think that's slightly more evidence to base my opinion on than you have for yours, but it's not conclusive, I know. Neither of us can claim that our interpretations are the definitive truth (which is one of the reasons Origins is so great :) ). I disagree with your interpretation of Alistair and the Joining; I don't think a six-month member who thinks of the Grey Wardens as the only home and family he's ever truly had, would ever consider betraying their secrets. He doesn't withhold the fact that the Warden only has around 30 more years to live; he is surprised when he realises that they hadn't had time to tell the Warden earlier (confirmed in the toolset). The Warden isn't the centre of Alistair's life, after all. -Sophia (talk) 13:50, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
A king in everything but name alone is still not a king. The title may be bullshit but it's still Anora trying to retain her power.Konous (talk) 12:25, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

@R0B45 They aren't "ifs", they are canon, provided you selected the specific responses to get Alistair to admit the truth. By the same token, I could say that you are dealing in "ifs" since Anora only betrays you IF you betray her first. I'm not telling you why you were betrayed, I’m just pointing out that she had good reason to so. Just because you excuse Alistair's betrayal doesn't make it any less so. I'm sure Alistair is a fine leader, but he doesn't act like one in the Landsmeet. Based on that present-hand knowledge, he's not fit to rule. Anora isn't fit either, but she's better than Alistair. The ideal pick is a male Cousland who has made moral choices.

Again, I did not betray Anora by stating that I was rescuing her, and subsuquently not supporting her couldn't be considered betrayal either. Alistair accepts to duel Loghain even if you don't, and he also opts to spare Anora if he falls to the archdemon. Even if you ignore that Alistair makes a far better ruler through the epilogues, and only consider "present knowledge", I am not about to make someone that betrayed me twice in a ruthless effort for the throne. A male Cousland cannot become king, that is an illusion. It is mearly a status marriage, as you are only a prince-consort and do not rule at all.--R0B45 (talk) 23:16, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
You exposed her to the enemy. You betrayed her, intentional or not. Choosing not to support her in the Landsmeet is your prerogative, just as not supporting you in the Landsmeet is hers. Alistair accepting to duel Loghain is no virtue. He wanted to kill him since Ostagar. Opting to spare Anora is another matter. If hardened he hints to executing her should he not fall in battle. If unhardened his reasoning seems contradictory. He says Anora can't be trusted, yet he is willing to make her queen should he fall. BTW, Alistair is willing to betray you regardless if you decide to spare Loghain. He makes a grab for the crown just to get revenge, your plans be damned. Legally speaking, a male Cousland becomes king the second Cailin dies, and this is because he is the last known surviving Cousland and thus Teyrn of Highever. Absent any kingly heirs, the Teyrn of Highever is next in line for the crown according to Ferelden law. So the male Cousland is the acting King throughout the game after Ostagar. As for the Landsmeet decision there are two "king me" options. The first is if you win the duel and spare Loghain. When asked to settle the matter you can say: "Anora will be queen and I will rule beside her." This clearly says the Cousland rules beside Anora. That means joint rule shared by a king and queen. The second option is if Alistair kills Loghain, in which case you can say: "I shall rule at queen Anora's side, as her husband." Similar to the first option this one is somewhat more skewed toward emphasis on the Cousland's rule rather than joint rule (though it still comes down to that). In either case, THAT is what the Landsmeet agrees to. Therefore the Teyrn becomes the King. Moreover, the epilogue and Awakening state that the Warden rules over the court (if you pick to stay at court), which is the king's duty. DA2 also states that the Warden rules Ferelden when Bohdan is asked about his history with the Warden who became king. Believe it! (talk) 03:46, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

@Konous Yes the Wardens kept secrets from him too, but that should only be more reason for him to inform others of what they're getting themselves into. He doesn't mention it right after the nightmare scene even when asked if there is anything else the Warden should know, I have checked. He won't mention it until you ask him about the Wardens and bring up the Calling. Why would he assume that? From Joining to splitting up there was no time alone with Duncan. There was only the war council meeting. To me it seemed like Alistair was remembering that Duncan never mentioned it. He knew that the Warden was a new recruit and didn't know anything about being a Warden. Alistair hides the fact even when asked if there is anything else to the Warden taint. He willfully hides the truth about the 30-year life span as well as the reduced chance at procreation. Anora hardly abandons you to Cauthrien. It isn't her fault Cath showed up to capture you, and there was nothing Anora could have done to stop Cath. But she will contact Eamon in order to free the Warden. So no, she doesn't abandon you. Alistair will if you spare Loghain though. I agree that is Anora's attempt to retain her power, which is the only thing I don't like about her. But I can see past that considering all she's been through.

@EzzyD Male Cousland decides both shall rule together. Landsmeet agrees to what male Cousland decides. The Bannorn elects the nation's rulers, therefore both were jointly elected. The end.

@-Sophia I'm not assuming Loghain's opinion is incorrect, I'm just pointing out that it's his opinion and could be incorrect. His being so alienated from his daughter makes that more likely, but regardless of her motives she was in danger of being murdered by Howe, even if she believed otherwise. If that was her plan, to set the Warden up to support her in the Landsmeet, I still don't see her rationale in lying about Howe trying to kill her. If anything it makes her seem needful of the Warden. I'm sure her suggestion to go to the Alienage was her attempt to gain favor with the Warden though. I remember her main argument being that the Warden needs her to put forward in the Landsmeet as the best chance of winning against Loghain. As for Alistair, he does withhold all info until pressed on it, and I don't see his loyalty to the Grey Warden vow of silence as noble. This is especially so AFTER the custom character becomes a Grey Warden. The Warden IS sort of the center of Alistair's life, seeing as the Warden is the leader. And besides that, shouldn't Alistair be there to help the Warden adjust to that new and harsh life? Believe it! (talk) 22:05, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, they elected Anora as queen and for the Warden to rule beside her as Consort. EzzyD (talk) 22:14, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
Beside her as King, not under her as consort. You're getting closer to being right Ez. Keep at it. :) Believe it! (talk) 03:46, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
And I'm afraid you're not getting it. Your Cousland Warden will never be a king. Ever. And to insist on it, despite being proven wrong on numerous occasions, is foolhardy and a waste of time. Also, I find your condescension offensive. I'd very much appreciate it if you reined that in. EzzyD (talk) 03:53, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
This is supposed to be about should Alistair be King, not is the warden King- so please keep it on topic. This thing's been beaten over more than enough times in the chat already. ----Isolationistmagi 04:44, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

@Believe it! Fun fact that you may not be aware of, you can convince Cauthrien that Loghain killed his king, and that he must be stopped. With that in mind, don't you think Loghain's own daughter stating that would make convincing her much easier? Instead, Anora accuses me of kidnapping her, which makes me look far worse to the nobles, as they can add attempting to kidnap the queen to the list of issues they have against me. I cannot stress enough that Anora tells you that Loghain must be stopped, even if you do not support her. To speak against me in the Landsmeet and support Loghain completely contradicts her previous statement. How could a ruthless, betraying liar be trusted to run a nation? Compared to my loyal comrad, that has stood by my side through everything, I believe it is a no brainer. I'd like to go off the record by saying that I WOULD have considered making her queen, in one form or another, if she hadn't betrayed me. Despite what your dialogue says during the Landsmeet, Anora makes it very clear that SHE will be the ruler, and you will just be her husband, not ruling at all.--R0B45 (talk) 06:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

The Warden can talk Cauthrien down certainly, but even then only with high persuasion/intimidation. Anora pales in comparison to the Warden in both. Also, in the case of your Warden, you are trying to get into the Landsmeet. You HAVE to go through Cauthrien, one way or another. You have no choice but to try and reason with her, or else strike her down. Anora's situation was different. She didn't know if Cauthrien was blindly loyal to Loghain or what. Anora was in no position to gamble on Cauthrien having a conscience, and in fact Anora's decision was correct, as we find out later that Cauthrien did know about the torture of innocents and that she made excuses for it. As for coming up with the story that you kidnapped her, I agree that it was idiotic, as does she. But it was the best she could think of when you put her on the spot. To be fair, Loghain adds kidnapping to the list anyway. That was part of the reason why they locked Anora up in the first place. No contradiction, she merely decided to use her father's influence to secure the throne for herself. She does say that Loghain must be stopped, and she's right, but in the case that you want to support Alistair and/or kill her father, she will decide that she is best suited to stop Loghain by becoming queen in the Landsmeet. Since you won't support her, the only option left is to support her father. Politically smart. And again, not saying she wasn't an underhanded liar, but Alistair's worse. This all comes down to how you played. I understand and respect your opinion R0B45, and I see that you base it on how you experienced the characters in your playthrough. But I'm looking at it as an overall judgment of each character based on all the actions that they can possibly take. Anora's best is better than Alistair's best, and Anora's worst is better than Alistair's worst. I think that's how we should look at the topic. I mean, if you played as I did, Anora wouldn't betray you at all and Alistair would. So I don't think its the best example to go by. Anora makes it clear as to what she wants, but that simply isn't what she gets. The Bannorn agrees upon what the Warden says, and the Bannorn elects the rulers, not Anora. Believe it! (talk) 20:03, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
Even after knowing that Cauthrien can be persuaded against Loghain you still say Anora betraying me was the right call? My biggest issue with this particular betrayal is that she goes as far as saying "this man tried to kidnap me". She did not have to go that far just to get away. If blatent betrayal and lying is the best she can do, how could she be a good ruler? The epilogues state that Alistair is a much more friendly and fair ruler than Anora, so I would say that Alistair's "best" far exceeds Anora's. Alistair's determination to kill Loghain is nothing compared to Anora's desire to kill Alistair. If you opt to spare the traitor that has caused all of the problems, she tries to have Alistair executed. How is that any better than Alistair's justified reasons for wanting to kill Loghain? The entire basis as to why you think Anora is better is that Alistair goes through great lengths to kill Loghain, but Anora isn't any better. On a side note, it pisses me off that Eamon doesn't do a damn thing to prevent Alistair's execution, it was his fault that Alistair was put forward as the true heir to the throne, and to add insult to injury, he just says "it's a shame what happened to Alistair".--R0B45 (talk) 23:16, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
Bro, srysly. Read what I wrote. Anora didn't know if Cauthrien could be persuaded or if she was her father's loyal lackey, so you can't reasonably expect Anora to try and convince her of Loghain's crimes. I wrote that accusing the Warden of kidnapping was not the right call, and Anora also admitted it wasn't the right call. But that was the best she could come up with on the spot having been exposed like that by your Warden. What difference does it make if she calls you a kidnapper or says "look over there" in order for her to make her escape? In any case you'd still have to end up fighting the guards. With all due respect, betraying you isn't what she wanted to do. Her plan was to sneak out of the estate disguised as a guard, remember? But you blew her cover. As for being a good leader, yes maybe she should have tried to put her foot down and order Cauthrien to stand down, but Alistair did no better. If you have him with you he will question you if you wish to surrender, and he shows willingness to just kill Cauthrien and take his chances against the guards she brought with her. He's all "Muhuhaha, I am Prince Stabbity! Stab! Kill! Kill!"
Once again, you can't use future outcomes that could not have been known to the Warden during the Landsmeet. But if we are going to go by post-Landsmeet events to decide who the best choice is during the Landsmeet then maybe we should look even further ahead to the events of say... Awakening, or DA2? As for the epilogue, the only real difference is how the Alienage gets dealt with, but the specifics are never given. Also, Alistair relies on Eamon for help. Anora needs no help.
Anora only demands Alistair's execution because Alistair acts like a crybaby, quits the Grey Wardens, and tries to leave having made a claim to the throne. Her demand is the direct result of Alistair's claim. He poses a threat to the crown, and uprisings could be started in his name (which does happen, on a side note). Anora is going by the book on this one. It's common practice in a society like that. You can suggest the same thing if Alistair is made king and Anora refuses to forswear her claim to the throne. Her justification is better because that prevents future uprisings, and Alistair is quitting the fight against the Darkspawn anyway. Alistair on the other hand just wants to satisfy his own craving for revenge and is willing to disregard a viable Grey Warden recruit in the process. He puts his own wants over that of defeating the Blight. Vengeance above duty. Death above justice. Anora is flawed, but she is better than Alistair. Eamon doesn't do a damn thing because there is nothing he can do. The call for Alistair's head is a legal one, and it is one that Eamon would abide had it been Anora's head on the chopping block. It wasn't Eamon's fault at all. Remember, Alistair steps forward on his own and attempts to take control of the crown should Loghain be spared. It was Alistair who put himself out there even if he initially didn't want it or even if he agreed to Anora ruling prior to this.
Which reminds me... You write about how supporting Anora is a bad choice, yet Alistair supports Anora because he doesn't want to be king. Does that not speak ill of his own character? I also have to add this point. You say Alistair doesn't betray you, which is correct. But I submit that this is only because you are in line with Alistair's goals. Step outside of his goals and he will betray you just the same. Believe it! (talk) 05:42, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
The topmost part of my previous comment was intended to be a reply to "best she can do", I didn't word that part as I had intended. You can't blaim Alistair for wanting to fight out of that situation, as the alternative is to be inprisoned and possibly executed, which would seriously hinder the mission of ending the blight. I find it odd that you make Anora's betrayal out to be my fault, I honestly thought in my canon playthrough that showing Cauthrine that Anora was being imprisoned by Loghain's allies and my efforts to rescue her would help in the attempt to persuade her to stand down.
My god, you are one of the people that considers Alistair a "crybaby" for not wanting a comrad that murdered everyone important to him and put a nation into complete chaos. All that is asked of Anora should Alistair become king is that she relinquish her claim to the throne, and the result is for her to be imprisoned, but kept alive so that the throne can still fall to her should Alistair die. Anora's solution after becoming queen is to just execute Alistair without question. You're trying to tell me that she did the better choice, as a monarch?
As for the epilogues, Alistair grants the city elves a place in his court and is fair to them, thus improving relations between humans and elves. Anora, on the other hand, comes down hard on them, which decreases trust between the humans and elves.
In my particular playthrough, Alistair did NOT support Anora. He actually states that he does not trust her and does not want her on the throne. I am going to say that the reason why our opinions differ as they do stems from whether we decided to spare Loghain or not. Alistair only really "betrays" you if you opt to recruit Loghain, and since I was just as opposed to it as Alistair, I didn't experience said betrayal.--R0B45 (talk) 06:21, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
I most certainly do blame Alistair for wanting to fight out of that situation. That's a tough fight even if the game doesn't lag frag your party. Going up against those numbers is insanity. It's actually set up so that your party will fall in battle and your Wardens will be taken to Fort Drakon upon defeat. Also, from a moral standpoint, why should those guards die for doing their jobs? They're just trying to make a living for their families. They have nothing to do with the problems being caused in Denerim and they don't know the truth. Why should they pay the ultimate price for Loghain's foolishness and treachery? When my character Izen surrendered, it wasn't just to allow Anora's escape. It was also to spare the lives of those soldiers. Surrender may or may not hinder the mission to defeat the Blight, but it would not stop the mission. Riordan was freed by this point. I'm not making Anora's betrayal out to be your fault; I'm just making the point that you ought to have a sense of perspective on this. When you expose someone to his or her enemy after being specifically told that the person is trying to avoid detection, then yes that is a betrayal and will be seen as such regardless of how well-intended your incorrect action was.
Yes, I am one of the 99.999999% that considers Alistair to be a crybaby, though not just for the reason you stated. I wouldn't have minded if Alistair just wanted to not fight along side Loghain, but to quit the Wardens completely? Crybaby.
Was Anora to fight in the battle of Denerim? Was she to go against the Archdemon? No and no. Alistair still had that duty. Therefore sparing Anora makes sense for him. Executing Alistair makes sense for Anora, because in that case Alistair refuses to fight the darkspawn anyway. In the event that he remains a Warden, Anora does not call for his head because Alistair is obviously needed to fight the Blight. I'm not saying that her choice was up to my standards, but it was legal within the framework of that society. Izen told her to retract the order, and she complied. Alistair was let free to run away and become a drunk, by his own choice.
You're right. Alistair provides a better immediate situation for the elves than Anora does post-Landsmeet. But if we are going by future events, what does this recognition of the elves lead to?
Did you tell Alistair everyone is out for themselves? I did not. Yeah, I know you didn't experience a betrayal. That's what I wrote in my last reply. My point is that you had the same goals. Diverge from Alistair's goals and he betrays you. Believe it! (talk) 18:59, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
Again, a contradiction, there was no way you could have known that surrendering would just place you in an escapable situation. Going against a handful of lowly guards is insanity? You murder hundreds throughout the course of the game, not to mention the overarching goal of facing an army of darkspawn and an archdemon. I can very confidently say that even you murdered hundreds of people by that point who were "just doing their job". I should be noted that Sten and Oghren also want to fight out that situation, and the only ones that would prefer to surrender are the rogues. It is made very clear, by assassination attempts and the bounty on your head, that Loghain wants you dead. Surrendering to Cauthrine sounds like it would lead to an immediate execution.
I understand Alistair's reason for not wanting to be a Warden alongside Loghain, he was the one to betray them at Ostagar and leave them all to die. I would not fight alongside someone who did that as a brother in arms, thats probably the second worse decision you could possibly make in the entire game.
Your statement "diverge from Alistair's goals and he betrays you" also works the other way around, does it not? It's pretty clear that like Alistair, I wish to see justice done to Loghain, and was betrayed by Anora as a result. You, like Anora, desire the throne so much that you are willing to recruit the cause of almost every problem of the game, and was "betrayed" by Alistair as a result. The difference is that I diverged from Anora's goals BECAUSE I was betrayed.-- (talk) 04:22, January 18, 2013 (UTC)(R0B45)
No contradiction. As I said, Izen accepted the possibility that he would be placed in an inescapable situation or even killed because he knew that Riordan had escaped. Should Izen and Alistair die, Riordan would still be there to put others through the Joining. So the mission of defeating the Blight was never at risk against Cauthrien. Also, Izen did not escape Drakon. He trusted that his friends would save them. Those weren't lowly guards, they were well armed and well organized, and Cauthrien is a boss. There was even a mage there! And excuse me, but Izen didn't murder anyone. All kills were either in self-defense or to defend the innocent from those who would murder them. Darkspawn are monsters that threaten all life. Killing them is not murder. Oghren and Sten aren't good picks for king either. ;p
Surrendering to Cauthrien doesn't sound like immediate execution to me, but like I wrote above, my character accepted that possibility. But the option to surrender also includes the statement, "You don't know the whole story", or something to that effect. This shows that the custom character can persuade Cauthrien to take them alive, and that's what mine did.
I think making Loghain a Warden is one of the best decisions in the game. He becomes that which he hated, learns what it is to be a Grey Warden, and can be used to kill the Archdemon thus sparing the custom character and Alistair. Even if Riordan had been able to strike the final blow and Loghain had lived, he would be used to recruit new Wardens in Orlais. A fitting and ironic punishment for Loghain. Again, I understand why Alistair did not want to fight along side Loghain, but his choice to quit the Wardens was going overboard. He should have just stayed in Denerim and helped people evacuate, and then stayed to fight the darkspawn along side other soldiers. But no, he boarded one of the first boats out of Denerim.
It does work the other way around, of course. I never stated differently. Anora betrays you if you step outside of her goals (to rule and to spare her father). I'm just saying, in this regard Anora and Alistair are pretty much equally rotten. I would argue Alistair is worse since by this point in the story he should trust his friend's decision to be the best one. I understand your reasoning for picking Alistair over Anora, but that's not what this topic is about. The question is if Alistair should be king. We are looking at Alistair's merits leading up to and during the Landsmeet. Everything I saw of him tells me he should not be king, and that also includes Alistair himself! He says straight out that he doesn't want to be king and that he doesn't know anything about leading a nation. Believe it! (talk) 17:39, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

@Believe it! It is still a contradiction, as you could not have known that you would only be captured. Furthermore, the Landsmeet could not have been won without the Warden or Alistair; Riordan could not have performed the Joining either, as Loghain had confinscated the archdemon blood. You can't possibly believe that the right hand of Loghain (who as I stated before, very clearly wants you dead), that even Anora believes she cannot persuade/trust, would not intend to have you killed. A Grey Warden doesn't simply "accept" death when their duty is to stop the blight. Did you not slander Alistair previously for his quitting the Wardens, based on his duty? Allowing yourself to be imprisoned or killed is not fullfilling your duty as a Grey Warden. I personally didn't have much trouble with the fight, there is only one boss, two elites and the rest were weak grunts. You claim that you murdered all of those people in "self-defense", but how would it be any different if these particular guards attacked you? How many people did you needlessly kill in Haven? Being a friend (which is questionable the way you slander Alistair) does not mean they must support all of your decisions without question. I could be friends with Wynne, but she still does not support my decision to return the Sacred Ashes to the risen Andraste and leaves as a result. Everyone has a line that should not be crossed in order to maintain friendship, and for Alistair, it's sparing Loghain and understandably so. The final point is more or less negated, as in my situation Alistair was willing and more open to becoming king. Finally, it is rather clear that having Alistair marry Anora is clearly the best choice for throne issue, as it is the best of both sides. But your own lust for the throne was apparently in the way of that.--R0B45 (talk) 19:55, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Are you even reading my posts? There is no contradiction because my character accepted the possibility of being unjustly slain. The Landsmeet is trivial, and I would argue that Eamon and Anora would have been able to win it anyway, but the point is that the Blight would have been defeated through Riordan. Whether he would have been able to perform the Joining or not is another debate. I say he could have by using his own Warden's Oath, which had Archdemon blood in it. There are other ways to create the Joining's tainted cocktail. Riordan walked into the Landsmeet claiming to be able to put Loghain through the Joining, which means he already found what was needed to do so.
As I stated, my character accepted that possibility, but he would have rather put his own life at risk than kill all those soldiers or risk the lives of his friends against them. Also, in my playthrough Izen did not kill any of the guards prior to the basement. That means if there had been a battle, all those guards may have heard what was going on and joined in (I know the game doesn't activate them, but from a storyline perspective this makes sense). Anora's lack of trust is irrelevant. Izen trusted her to not kill needlessly based on what he observed about her.
Not that it matters, but my character never wanted to be a Grey Warden and never considered himself as such. The situation he was in was to either go peacefully, or kill a bunch of people who didn't deserve it. Izen chose to go peacefully because he held himself to a higher standard than the Wardens held themselves to *cough*Alistair*cough*. I did not slander Alistair. I stated a fact about him. Izen's disregard for the Warden code does not absolve Alistair of his. Izen never considered himself a Warden, and he swore no oaths to their order. Alistair did, and it was Alistair who went back on his oath out of selfishness.
I claim that my character did not murder anyone. There's a big difference between killing and murdering. Izen did not needlessly kill the people of Haven. They attacked him after he found the dead body of a Redcliffe knight. Izen and friends killed them out of self-defense and for murdering the Redcliffe knights. I didn't ask Alistair to support all of Izen's decisions, not even that one. But for him to walk out on his friends and the rest of the group was just childish and petty. Wynne breaks her friendship with you because you went against her Maker. Morality demands that she sever ties with you. That is a good reason. Alistair's reason was senseless. If that is Alistair's "line" then it only speaks poorly of him. He'll stand by you should you make downright immoral choices, or even if you kill his nephew, but make Loghain a Warden at the recommendation of another Warden and he acts like a butt-hurt crybaby. Izen on the other hand wanted to keep his friendship with Alistair even after Alstair walked out on the team, saying that he would always be welcome. Same case with Morrigan. In fact, Alistair and Morrigan are exactly the same in this regard. They both walk out if you don't agree with them on one insignificant issue. The final point is that Alistair is only more open to being king if have him take a negative view of people and the world.
Wait a second, you say Anora can't be trusted, yet you say Alistair should marry her? How is that the best choice then according to all the things you said about her? Wouldn't your best choice be putting Alistair on the throne alone? As I so logically stated above, the best choice is a moral male Cousland and Anora ruling jointly. The only thing that can compare to this is Alistair and moral female Cousland ruling jointly. Believe it! (talk) 19:57, January 19, 2013 (UTC)
There is no debate, Riordan could not have done the joining, not without the archdemon blood. Even if he had his Warden's oath pendant, and could use it, he could only recruit maybe one person, and even then that person is likely to die from the Joining. It is shown that Riordan could NOT defeat the blight on his own, as he died in an attempt to draw the archdemon to the fort. That's assuming he had the support of Ferelden, which he wouldn't since he could not possibly win the Landsmeet against Loghain.
So you don't consider yourself a Warden, but you have the nerve to slander Alistair on ignoring his duty as a Warden? That my friend, is called hypocrisy.
So since you very boldly claim that you didn't murder anyone, let me ask, did you accept any of the Chanter's board quests that involved killing people? Did you clear out the Carta on behalf of the lord you supported? Did you complete the Blackstone irregulars quests? Did you complete the trial of Crows? Did you complete the favours for interested parties? Did you kill Uldred? All of these, no matter how you sugar-coat them, are premeditated killings, murder. You still didn't answer my question, how many people did you needlessly kill in Haven?
I said "having Alistair marry Anora is clearly the best choice for throne issue, as it is the best of both sides". That would fit the needs of the people of Ferelden far better than either ruling alone. You seem to crave the thone in a way that can only be a lust for power that is only equaled by Anora and Loghain. Being on the throne does not help the people, it is only a status symbol, both for you and the nation. The most you do is take Loghain's place as the general of Anora's armies.--R0B45 (talk) 23:08, January 19, 2013 (UTC)
The Warden's Oath would have worked on a chalice of the same size as the one used at Ostagar. If Riordan had been the only Warden left, he would have changed tactics so that others would force the Archdemon down for him to slay. If Cauthrien had killed Alistair and the custom character then Loghain would have no one to oppose him. With Ferelden united, Loghain would have gone on to fight the Blight. At which time Riordan would have approached Loghain with the fact that the Blight cannot be stopped unless a Grey Warden strikes the killing blow. Loghain would have either accepted this, knowing the Riordan would have no reason to lie, or he would have Riordan imprisoned again and Loghain would have found out the hard way that Riordan was right, in which case Loghain would allow the Wardens to go after the Archdemon. This is all irrelevant though, since none of this is known during the confrontation with Cauthrien.
No, it's called holding people to their own standards. Alistair is the one who swore that oath. Alistair is the one who betrayed that oath. Izen never took that oath to the Wardens in the first place. Izen held himself to a higher standard. Alistair can't claim to be a Warden and then abandon the Wardens when the Warden code of "whatever it takes" is followed. That would be like Izen agreeing to burn Amaranthine to the ground and then saying "whatever it takes" as his justification. Someone might say, "But Your Majesty, it's your sworn duty as King to protect your people", to which he would reply, "But I'm a Grey Warden first". This would be hypocritical, since Izen didn't follow the Warden code any time before this. He would be betraying his own oath as soon as it became inconvenient. That's what Alistair did. Pointing that out about Alistair doesn't make me a hypocrite.
Of course I accepted those quests. Every one of them either involved self-defense or bringing evil people to justice for their crimes, or both. Check my profile page for a complete explanation. Those that involved needless killing or outright murder were either refused or resolved without bloodshed. No, Uldred was killed by the Pride Demon, but Izen did kill the Pride Demon. I did answer your question about how many people Izen needlessly killed in Haven: Zero!
Again, if Anora is so awful, how does her being on the throne at all fit the needs of the people of Ferelden? Izen did not "crave" the throne. It was his duty and responsibility as Teyrn of Highever to lead Ferelden after Cailin's death. Electing Anora alone is a bad idea... and Alistair's a crybaby. So the only logical choice is to appeal to the Bannorn to elect a moral male Cousland and Anora to rule jointly. The epilogue begs to differ with you. It states that the people believe that Izen and Anora could usher in a new golden age not seen since Calanhad united the Alamarri tribes, so long as they don't end up vying for control of the throne. And in Izen's humble opinion there will be no battle for control since they will either be ruling jointly, or Anora will be ruling for both of them whenever Izen must leave court to handle serious business elsewhere. Izen is clearly the best choice to rule Ferelden. He saved all of Ferelden from: two usurpers, the troubles and evils they caused, demonic invasion, werewolves, the darkspawn, and the Archdemon. He did all this while evading assassination attempts left and right. His election to the throne satisfies the demand for a royal bloodline, and it allows for Anora to return to rule legitimately through marriage to the Cousland so that her experience on the throne is also preserved. This also follows the law, which states that the Teyrn of Highever is next in command should the King die without heirs. Believe it! (talk) 07:33, January 20, 2013 (UTC)
The discription for the Warden's oath quite clearly states that is a bit of blood left over from that particular joining. If you place only a single drop of archdemon blood in a chalice full of darkspawn blood, then a very small amount of that mixture would not have enough for anymore than one recruit at the very best. In case you haven't noticed the part of Loghain trying to kill all of the Wardens, as well as his torture of Riordan, it is very clear that he would not accept an audience with Riordan, not to mention his Orlesian backround. Furthermore, it is a Grey Warden secret that a warden must take the final blow, which is why he takes the Warden and Alistair in private to reveal that information. Ferelden would have fallen to the darkspawn if you were kiled by Cauthrine, that much is clear.
I like how you call murder "justice for their crimes". In the quest "Loghain's Push", the soldiers that you kill are mearly doing their jobs, and you went there to kill them. The carta dwarves also had no choice, it was either work in the carta or their families starve, and you killed them. In the final Blackstone Irregular's and favours for interested parties quests, you seek out and murder people, as the objective of the quest. As for the Haven question, how did you go about doing that? In the shop, did you check the back room? Did you help Kolgrim return the ashes to the risen Andraste? If not, then you partook in needless killing. I find it odd that you are quick to kill common bandits for their crimes for a modest sum of gold but opt to spare Loghain, whos crimes FAR exceed anything they have ever done.
Hypocrisy is "claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform". So yeah, if you, a Grey Warden, who does not hold your duties of being a Warden in any regard slander another Grey Warden for ignoring theirs, you are a hypocrit.
I did not state that Anora is "awful", I've stated that I do not trust her. Her being on the throne with Alistair as a king however, combines both of their stong points and is better for the people. It is never the duty as a Cousland to take the throne, it is mearly your status as the child of a once powerful noble that allows you to marry Anora. It also does not state in the epilogue that you actually do any of the ruling. It is your status as the Hero of Ferelden that helps usher a golden age. Could you share a ling or something that shows that it is Ferelden law for the teryn of Highever to take the throne should there be no more heirs? Even if this was true, Alistair, Eamon and Tegan all still have a claim to the throne, so it wouldn't be your own duty to do so. --R0B45 (talk) 08:30, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

@R0B45 Let's continue this on my talk page. This page is becoming unstable for me. Believe it! (talk) 04:41, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

In regards to whether to make Alistair king or not, I have been known to go either way, depending on whether or not he is hardened or not. Sometimes I marry him to Anora, and others I have him rule on his own. Either way, I always kill Loghain at the Landsmeet (except the one time I didn't for the achievement). For mine, Loghain's crimes are too heinous and too numerous to simply be forgiven by taking the joining. He has done too many terrible things to too many people to get off that easy. For mine, humiliation, the destruction of his legacy, and finally death, is the appropriate end for such a man. When I kill Loghain, I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for him; his arrogance and paranoia brought him to his end. Plus, his talents are horribly specced and his gear is terrible. He's a much worse tank than Alistair or Shale.--Darkly Tranquil (talk) 14:36, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Seconded.--R0B45 (talk) 21:05, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious ? "dont wanna kill guards just because they are doing their jobs"? And what about assasins? Would you let them kill you just because they are doing "their job" ? (talk) 22:57, January 31, 2013 (UTC) --

An assassin's job is murder, so killing them would be just. And as I wrote, I would not let anyone kill me. I would defend myself. Believe it! (talk) 09:11, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

A hardened Alistair plus Anora on the throne is the best of everything. On top of that, I'm predicting the third game will announce that Alistair has an heir, or some other form of succession that directly resulted from his taking the throne. This is mostly due to my belief that continuing the Theirin bloodline is one of the "good" decisions you can make in DA:O. There's been a lot of emphasis put on Maric, Alistair's daddy, as well as Alistair himself in the expanded media. So it's almost certain that he's got a role to play in the future, and that role can be best played as ruler of Ferelden. Rathian Warrior (talk) 05:46, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Wandering drunk has more potential, and it's funnier. Believe it! (talk) 09:11, February 2, 2013 (UTC)