Forum:Proposing changes to quotes guidelines

Forums: Index > Wiki DiscussionProposing changes to quotes guidelines

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((Posting this on behalf of User:HD3))

The quotations sections of many of our character articles could use a bit of reform. With the current caps and limits, they've become quite unwieldy in terms of page space. Content is also an issue. The quote section is meant to provide just a small handful of choice lines of dialogue which give a cursory outline of a character, not mark out every mildly interesting bit of dialogue they ever uttered. "Maker's breath, kitty. What have you been eating?" is hardly something that's going to offer much insight. We also haven't reached a consensus regarding header quotes and how they relate to the rest of the quotation sections. Given the success of the recent reform of the DA:Trivia guidelines, I thought now would be a good time to open this up to a wider forum. I've discussed this with several of the other regular editors on the wikia and we've drawn up this outline for reforming the quotation section. I've numbered each proposal for the ease of those responding.

• 1: A minimum standard of notability for a quotation.

By which I mean, the quote should clearly demonstrate something about the character's personality or beliefs. E.G Anders' header quote “The people fear what we can do, but to use that fear to bludgeon us into submission is wrong! And they do it with our blessing!” works because it's a statement of ideology whereas Alistair's “That's what I'm here for. To deliver unpleasant news and witty one-liners.” works because it speaks more of his personality. Just "Does this say something about the character the other quotes don't?" is a good guideline.

• 2: Avoid having two quotes which say the same thing.

A good example of this is Loghain. One quote is "How fortunate Maric did not live to see his son ready to hand Ferelden over to those who enslaved us for a century!" which neatly captures his attitude towards Cailan, yet the very next quote "Your fascination with glory and legends will be your undoing, Cailan! We must attend to reality." which again just repeats Loghain's attitude towards Cailan.

• 3: A reduction in the number of quotes pursuant to the role of the character.

By which I mean an NPC would be reduced to 3 quotes. Companions on the other hand, given the much larger volume of dialogue would be 5 quotes. However if that character appeared in subsequent installments, I.E Wynne appears in DA:O and later in DA:Asunder, we could add an extra 2 quotes per installment. Unless of course they play a demonstrably major role in both cases, e.g Companion in more than one game.

• 4: If a character only has one notable quote, that quote should be put in as a header quote rather than have a quote section dedicated to that single quote.

• 5:Header quotes should be included in the total number of quotes on a page.

• 6: Header quotes should not be repeated in the quotation section of the same article.

• 7: Unless it's a really really good quote, try to keep quotes confined to 1 to 2 sentences.

Cullen's page is a good example of this, nearly every single quote is a paragraph long.

• 8: A reduction in the number of dialogue exchanges.

Reduce the number of dialogue exchanges to 1 per character. The dialogue exchanges are huge with each one taking up about 4-5 quotes per exchange. They take up a tonne of space, half the time they contain spoilers and the other half they still don't make any more sense than a standalone quote even with the extra context provided by having the extra dialogue.

• 9: Keeping spoilers out of quotes altogether.

Using the spoiler tag kind of makes the list of quotes look choppy (like Orsino) and for any character I can think of there are plenty of non-spoiler quotes that could be used just as well to reflect their personality. --Kelcat (talk) 05:59, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: I should also mention under the guidelines, Temporary companions given the brief nature of their appearances would be counted as NPCs for the quotation section rather than full companions.

Votes

Already been discussing this with HD3, but I'll officially put that I'm in favor of all of these points. --Kelcat (talk) 06:11, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

I am in favor of these changes with the following exceptions:

• Quotes and dialogue exchanges should be counted together and not separately.
• NPCs should have a limit on 5 quotes and companions on 10 quotes. +2 for every extra installment they appear in.
  • This is practically 4 - 9 considering that the head quote counts too. Furthermore, this is important since several NPCs have a large involvement in the setting, see Meredith Stannard. I wouldn't want her "Quotes" section having only one quote.

08:15, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, with the clarifications and amendments discussed below. King Cousland | Talk   20:26, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Comments and discussion

Re:Viktoria's Concerns: I'm not sure I understand Viktoria. Meredith would never have only 1 quote. Under the proposed guidelines, the maximum the article could have would be 3 single quotes (including the header) and one dialogue exchange, so only one less than what you suggested in total.- 08:29, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, firstly I don't think we should count quotes and dialogue exchanges differently, I think they should all be counted towards a combined number. This is because I think this makes things overcomplicated than necessary (especially for new editors).

Based on that line of thought, I think two quotes (minus the head one) is too few for a character such as Meredith. My proposition is to have 4 quotes (plus the head one) in which number the dialogue exchanges would also count towards. 08:50, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

I could possibly support 3 quotes in addition to the header and 1 dialogue exchange if the NPC was undeniably MAJOR NPC e.g the Arishok or Loghain. But i think applying that to all NPCs would be too wide a net.- 09:00, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Identifying a NPC as "MAJOR" or not is also something difficult. For example, Cullen. Based on that, I think one rule should apply in all circumstances. 09:06, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

I certainly agree with Viktoria that treating dialogue exchanges and single quotes differently is overcomplicating things, and could prove particularly troublesome for newer editors. If the concern is that the quotes will be dominated by dialogue exchanges, I think that looking at our current articles proves that this worry is broadly unfounded. However, I am slightly hesitant about including the header as a quote. The header, in my opinion, often serves as an introduction to the article itself, giving one a glimpse into either the nature of the character or quest. So, to clarify, I think we should allow 5 quotes for NPCs (either dialogue or single quotes) plus a header which would not count towards the total. All other points I support. King Cousland | Talk   11:21, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

I agree one rule would be simpler and I've no objection to dialogue exchanges being included in the number of quotes allowed per article. Regarding your reservations about the header: I certainly agree with you about the header's function to give a glimpse into the nature of the character, quest etc. But my point is that this the function of the quotation section also. A choice selection of a few notable fragments of dialogue designed to demonstrate part of a personality etc. If the header is just serving the same function as the quotation section and is really only a single line of the quotation section re-allocated to the top of the article, why then should the header not be considered among the quotes on the page? There will still be ample space for any other remaining quotations even including the header.- 11:32, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

A good point well made. I suppose we're all in agreement then. King Cousland | Talk   20:26, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

I'm also fine with combining the quotes and dialogue exchanges into a single rule. Looking at DA:CHARACTER#Quotes they're actually currently supposed to be combined, though it seems people have been interpreting it as 15 quotes plus 3 dialogue exchanges (I know I have). Combining them together would be easier. --Kelcat (talk) 19:06, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

We seem to have reached an agreement on every point then except the actual number of quotes. Looking at the quote lists for some characters, even companions, I honestly think 5 (for NPCs) and 10 (for companions) is still a bit excessive. In line with what we've already discussed I think 4 (including the header) and 8 (including the header) would be more than enough. With +2 quotes for every subsequent appearance.- 06:48, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather we start with a round number for the sake of convenience. My vote goes for 4 quotes for NPCs plus a header and 9 for companions plus a header, with +2 for every subsequent appearance. 12:19, April 24, 2014 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Cousland (talk • contribs)

4 and 8 including headers sounds good to me, and should be plenty. --Kelcat (talk) 00:31, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

I think 4 and 8 is plenty.-VampireBlood03 (talk) 03:51, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

I am in favor King Cousland's proposal, though it's good that all of us are on the same mind and just disagree on the exact numbers. 16:54, May 1, 2014 (UTC)