So I was looking through the entries here and I noticed that The Old Gods entry had nothing to specify how these gods were set apart from regular dragons. High dragons or otherwise. I mean for all we know these "Old Gods" had no particular abilities before their corruption. In my eyes (My Opinion) These "Old Gods" were just high dragons and nothing more. Until they are corrupted by the Darkspawn. Then they become Archdemons. Able to control the masses of Darkspawn without fail. If I am correct on this. knowing that other points of media that has Dragon Age in it Example. The comics, novels, and anime. It's all cannon. In "Dragon Age: The Silent Grove" There was a place shown that had many dragons in them. A breeding ground for the beasts. Someone is preparing their return. Now I know in the past I have always talked about two archdemons waking up at the same time. There are TWO "Old Gods" left to be roused from sleep. But after reading all the material I could not help but wonder. What if a regular High Dragon gets corrupted? Do they become Archdemons themselves? What if The Silent Grove was overrun by Darkspawn. My theory of the duel Archdemons just became exponentially worse. Is it possible to create an archdemon without an Old God? Is there a loophole that Flemeth knew about? It makes me wonder if this was her plan all along. I know my theory is WAAAAAAAAAAY out there. It is extremely far fetched, but there is no visible difference between an Old God and a High Dragon. The only difference is how they look after they are corrupted.
I figure dragons simply become blighted creatures when infected by darkspawn. They'd be subject to the same rules as other tainted animals. Inherently they are not magical creatures I don't think; having higher intelligence certainly but nowhere near enough cunning or power to exert control over other beings, even darkspawn. I have a hard time believing that anything from the comics will be treated as more than just spin-off material. I'd prefer that Dragon Age stay on the straight and narrow and not delve off into flights of fancy (glares at Those That Speak) and put more time into cementing what's already there. That's my two-cents. EzzyD (talk) 00:39, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
According to The Calling, the Grey Wardens know where the Old Gods (untainted) are in the Deep Roads. In the same book they find and kill a High Dragon that was living underground, so I doubt there is any confusion in the minds of a Senior Warden about the difference between a "run-of-the-mill" High Dragon and an Old God. Rathian Warrior (talk) 03:04, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
Yes there is. The Grey Wardens obviously have a way of knowing where and what the Old Gods are, as explained in The Calling. Otherwise, they would have mistaken the dragon they stumbled upon and fought for an Old God, which they didn't. Rathian Warrior (talk) 03:20, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
Codex Entry: “There were seven Old Gods, great winged dragons that were said to rule over the ancient world. The Chantry maintains that they are responsible for the original sin, that they turned humanity away from its true creator through deceit. Humanity's faith faltered, and thus the Maker turned away from the world--but not before trapping the Old Gods in eternal prisons beneath the earth as punishment. Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath.”
The old Gods were incredibly old, and ludicrously powerful high dragons who are assumed to be infinitely more powerful that any known high dragon today, or before the rise of Tevinter. Also, given that I have not read “The Calling” I will try not to speculate too much and simply request book quotes from counterarguments. Anyways, given that dragons, mature dragons, and high dragons are all adult dragons that look similar but with primarily just differences in size, and given that lore established the old gods as a subtype of dragons, when combined with Rathian Warrior’s statement that “the Grey Wardens know where the Old Gods (untainted) are in the Deep Roads. In the same book they find and kill a High Dragon that was living underground” is true, then it can be deduced that the Old gods are simply an older, larger, stronger version of a dragon than a high dragon. Furthermore, I don’t understand why the grey wardens would be able to track an old god like the darkspawn. As I understand it the darkspawn taint that wardens “take in” as part of the joining allows them to sense other tainted creatures, and old gods are not tainted/corrupted, when they are they become an archdemon. And even so, didn’t we learn from the architect in awakening that it requires some kind of ritual to corrupt an old god into an archdemon? Ultimately though, the best I can come up with is that the wardens simply got lucky and found them first. MrRabbitSir (talk) 17:41, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
The Calling does not go into WHY the Grey Wardens know where the Old Gods, are, simply that they do know where they are, and that it is impossible to reach and kill them because of the sheer number of darkspawn in the way. On top of this, it is established in The Calling that the Old Gods, even when dormant and untainted, call to the darkspawn to find them. I would assume that this might be related to how the Grey Wardens know where they are sleeping. It also alludes to the fact that the Old Gods are not simple dragons, because regular dragons do not call to the darkspawn in this way.
Further, all High Dragons, and indeed all dragons, are female. Any male dragonling grows up to become a drake. This conflicts with the gender of all the Old Gods, which is male according to most everything we know about them. Either the Old Gods were real dragons and the Tevinter Magisters are dumb, or they were something else entirely. It is most likely the second option, because, if Corypheus is to be believed, Dumat routinely spoke with the Magisters, which is another thing no normal dragon can do. If you want to assign the qualities of being male, being sentient, and calling to darkspawn to a simple dragon, then I'll call you stupid. Rathian Warrior (talk) 18:46, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
Don't forget the ability to possess living creatures straight after death WITHOUT having to go to Fade and then break through it first, as is the case with all demons. However, are you sure that dragons aren't sentient? The High Dragon at Haven certainly seemed pretty sentient to me, although she might have just been possessed (this is the only way that the Reaver description can involve demons and still make sense: by taking in dragon blood, reavers absorb some of the demon's essence, become connected to it and gain the ability to tap into its power, thus letting them consume souls,etc. After all, if demons in the Fade can buff up wisps into copies of darkspawn and mabari, then there is no reason for explanation to not work.) 4Ferelden (talk) 07:28, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
The Reavers are just Blood Mages, using dragon's blood as a medium instead of regular human blood. As for sentience, the codex states clearly that no behavior has been observed in dragons that could prove sentience. They're just particularly clever predators. Besides, Andraste, for all her presence among the dragon cultists, did not communicate to Kolgrim or the others in the same way that Dumat and the other Old Gods apparently communicated with the Magisters. Rathian Warrior (talk) 20:04, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
Are you referring to the Dragon Cult codex? Firstly, it says that the question remains regarding the draconic intelligence. More importantly, he never got the chance to interrogate any member of the cult, nor has he ever been to Haven. The dialogue with Kolgrim pretty clearly proves the sentience of that particular High Dragon. What I don't understand is your belief that this dragon was, in fact, Andraste, as there is no reason for her to be reborn in the form of dragon or to demand the blood sacrifices. The alternative explanation - the demon possessing the HD learned of Andraste while it was in the fade and combined this knowledge with its power and intelligence to successfully fool the cult - is much simpler and supported by more evidence.
Also, the very same codex says that reaver transformations are a FORM of blood magic: you have to remember that Chantry classifies golem-making as a form of blood magic too, even though it doesn't involve any blood or spell-casting. Essentially, anything that involves the transfer/consumption of souls/lifeforce is dropped into the blood magic category. The Reavers can't be classical blood mages as you would have to be a mage in the first place. However, my theory involves the transition of demon's power/lifeforce to the Reavers via the medium of the host's( i.e. dragon's) blood. As I have said before, we know that demons can buff up others in the Fade so it makes sense that they would be able to transfer their power through the shared blood. On the other hand, there is no credible reason for the dragon blood to give to people the ability to consume souls all by itself. 4Ferelden (talk) 04:21, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
The difference I assumed is that they were actual gods. I mean we have seen with the witches of the wild clan at least that mages can control dragons. But the old empire worshiped them in particular as gods and not ALL dragons. Then the maker forced them underground as punishment for turning his children away from him. Also like God putting the Devil in Hell. Plus Morrigan seemed to think that the old gods souls are important compared to any old dragon...--Wonder411 (talk) 22:27, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
The difference between the Old Gods and other dragons is that while high dragons are clever and powerful, the Old Gods seem to be fully sapient. They're capable of complex thought and strategy, just like a person. They also seem to possess a high degree of mystical power, since Corypheus claimed to draw his power from Dumat. We also saw in the Battle of Denerim that the Archdemon is capable of commanding dragon thralls and it is hinted that there is a connection between dragons and darkspawn, but the high dragon in the Deep Roads in the Calling also seemed quite capable of fending off the darkspawn and even the corruption didn't spread near her lair. My guess is that high dragons are too powerful to be tainted by conventional darkspawn hordes, while the Old Gods seem to be more willing to be tainted or at least susceptible to it. I also recall reading in a codex that during the First Blight, some people sought protection from high dragons against the darkspawn, which worked to a degree. Either way, I think that if a high dragon were to become tainted, it would be a powerful weapon in the Archdemon's army, but unable to actually rally and command the darkspawn. --NecroFeelYa (talk) 22:56, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
So first, an actual quote from the Dragon Cults Codex page:
- There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise be attributed to a clever beast.
That's right. In all the recorded history of Thedas, even when dragon hunting as at its peak, there was nothing to show that a dragon is anything more than a particularly clever predator, despite numerous encounters with dragon cultists.
As for Kolgrim, I fail to see at which point his dialogue proves that Andraste is anything other than just another dragon being worshiped by a group of fanatics. You'll have to find a quote to back up your point. In fact, even if you found a quote, I wouldn't accept it as evidence, because it's fairly obvious that Kolgrim and the rest of his people are brutally insane, twisted by dragon's blood and other foul arts and sacrificing people for sport. Whatever he says is most definitely forfeit because of said insanity, so using him as support for your arguments is an untenable position.
On top of that, I don't see how you can think of Andraste as possessed, really. As I said before, there's nothing that differentiates her from a wild animal at all, just like all the other dragons that had been hunted to near-extinction throughout the ages. If your only evidence to the contrary are the ravings of a madman, then you should double-check your facts. Rathian Warrior (talk) 00:43, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
If the old gods are merely high dragons, don't you think that:
- A: The pantheon of the Tevinter Imperium would have consisted of more than 7 gods?
- B: If any dragon could be corrupted and become an archdemon, how come there have only been 5 blights?
No, the Old Gods could not have been mere high dragons. Assuming that they were not just actual gods, they could be either another species that was related to the dragon or they could be some form of powerful demon. Also, the codex states that during the first blight, citizens of Tevinter started worshipping real dragons, implying that the Old Gods are not actual dragons. Roger Freeze (talk) 03:32, June 26, 2012 (UTC)