Forum:Morrigans child reason for veil being torn open??

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So i just got to thinking, in D.A : Origins if you chose to do the ritual with Morrigan to spare your life giving her a child to be born with the soul of an old god...even now, we know what not of whats become of this child.. what do you think the possibilities of that child being the reasoning for the Veil being torn open in D.A Inquisition and potentially being an insane boss battle?? 67.193.214.125 (talk) 00:37, November 30, 2013 (UTC) SyntheticSith

Mmmmm, I'm almost 100% sure that the child is not the reason for the Veil being torn open. The main point of DAI is to find out why it's torn and Morrigan having an old god child is an option, it wont be a main point in the main game but it may be the main point in a side mission within the game. The Dread Wolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Dread Wolf (talk • contribs) 01:36, 30 November 2013‎

The Dread Wolf is correct, in allot of people's playthroughs there is no old god baby, and without the death of another Archdemon there would be no way for Morrigan to obtain one upon the death of Urthemiel, who's spirit passes into the Grey Warden who kills it, killing the warden. It would be tough for BioWare to retcon this major choice from DAO, to fit the the main plot in DAI. (Btw Dread Wolf, don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~), if you want that to constitute your signature it's easy to just enter it in here). Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} 02:07, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

well i know that morrigan isn't a main character in DAI but she makes an appearance which idk suggests that there is indeed a possibility of that child also making an appearance xD it's just driving me crazy lol..must know what has become of it. Syntheticsith (talk) 04:00, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

The torn veil happens even without Morrigan's son, that's not the reason.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 07:27, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Ask Sandal what the problem is. The veil tear is part of the prophecy that he spoke in DA2. If anything the tear in the veil is just the beginning.GreyWolf84 (talk) 14:23, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

I think they have announced that the Veil is torned because of the Mage-Templar War... Emilia Da'len (talk) 15:42, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

If the OGB exists, by this point it'd only be nine or ten. Morrigan might mention what's going on with the kid, but that's really still too young for it to be a significant protagonist or antagonist, even in an optional sidequest. --Silver Warden (talk) 18:59, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Flemeth or Morrigan is behind this Demon Invasion

   She's an evil enchantress 

   She does evil dances 

   And if you look deep in her eyes 

   She'll put you in trances 

   Then what will she do? 

   She'll mix up an evil brew 

   Then she'll gobble you up 

   In a big tasty stew 

   So turn her down!

FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 22:09, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

The tear may be because of the war, but Sandal did forecast it in Dragon Age 2. GreyWolf84 (talk) 03:19, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

So many deaths during that war caused tha tear. Remember how it was at Soldier's Peak.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 07:41, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

It's not as though the is this first war Thedas has ever had. What about all the blights and Exalted Marches? I imagine there was a bunch of death then too. Thousands of dwarves were slaughtered in the deep roads during the first blight, but is the Veil weak there? My guess is that mages are summoning lots of demons to help them in the war. Avernus tore the Veil by summoning too many demons. Same thing with the circle tower. If there are dozens or hundreds of blood mages summoning demons all over the place, that could tear the Veil. --Silver Warden (talk) 19:29, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

You can meet demons in the deep roads. Why didn't you mention qunari wars? They lasted almost as long as the 1st blight.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 19:51, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

A odd demon or two isn't the same thing as a Veil tear. And I wasn't trying list every single war ever in Thedas, I was just giving examples off the top of my head. --Silver Warden (talk) 03:15, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the veil tear has so much to do with the OGB as it does with the massive amount of death and tragedy surrounding the Mage-Templar War. The OGB is still a child at this time. We probably won't see more of until the next trilogy of games. @Alexsau1991 David Gaider said on the social site that if your warden or Alistair or Loghain doesn't sleep with Morrigan that they are not the father of the OGB, however he hinted that Morrigan could still obtain the OGB by doing something far worst than getting knocked up. I think Bioware is doing the same thing they have done with a lot of major chocies in the DA games which is leave a hole open. And from my understanding, or at least what I read on the social site and other sites, most people choose to have the OGB. Who wants their warden to die anywhos lol? @Sliver Warden, the veil IS thin in the deeproads... How do you explain all the ghosts we see still fighting in Kal'Hirol in DA:A, or Ortan Thaig in DA:O? I apologize in advance, but I don't know how to sign when not logged in lol.

I'm not sure the ghosts seen in the Ortan Thaig or Kal'Hirol are demons or spirits. I think they're the actual ghosts of dead dwarves which didn't "return to the stone" for some reason. The ones in Kal'Hirol are constantly reenacting the final moments of their lives. I think it's a case of dead mortal ghosts haunting an area. Amgarrak had some of those too.

My overall point was that there's been so much death all over the place in Thedas for thousands of years, if mere death were the cause of the tear, why aren't there way more tears? I think it has to do with magic somehow, either an excess use of magic in general or summoning way too many demons at once or an extremely concentrated use of blood magic. That's how the magisters entered the fade: hundreds of slaves killed in a giant blood magic sacrifice. The magisters were deliberately tearing the Veil open via blood magic. A crapload of lyrium was used too, though, so maybe it was just the raw power of the spell that tore open the Veil and not specifically all that death or use of blood magic.

The mage-templar is causing a lot of death, yes, but magic is being used in excess by both sides (templars have magical powers of a sort). That a huge tear suddenly shows up during a mage war and not during a war against Qunari or darkspawn, or elves, or what-have-you suggests that it is magic that is causing the tear, and not just all that death. --Silver Warden (talk) 00:40, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Hey Silver Warden, the above post was me. I don't disagree with you that the tears have something to do with magic, but from past games and lore we've learned that veil tears aren't new and that they are usually the result of excesive death and probably excessive magic. The BF is said to have a thin veil by the Grand Oak and Dalish because of all the battles.

Templar's "magic" is just magic negating "spells". I believe there are spells similar to this in the spirit spell tree of DA:O. I don't think negating magic is helping to open a veil. Both sides are responsible for it opening because of themass killing, but if one side is more to blame, then it would be the mages for joining forces with blood mages.

I think you have the right idea with when the ancient magisters used hundreds of slaves and blood magic (excessive death + magic) to to rip the veil and enter the Golden City. But I don't believe it was the power of the spell it's self because the codex detailing the cardinal rules of magic states that magic has limits at least for mortal spell casters such as humans and elves. --Jamirflyd (talk) 00:52, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

The codex also specifically mentions in that same entry that what the magisters did was an exception. It is likely that the deaths are a factor in the tears as well as magic, otherwise there would be be tears around all the Circles. And there were probably mages in that battle in the Brecilian Forest - the Arcane Warrior essence in the life gem, for example. Or maybe it was a result of Tevinters fighting the Avvar. We don't know just what caused the tear in the forest, though the Grand Oak does say it was the result of a battle.

Alistair tells the Warden that Templars use a kind of magic to fight mages. Of course, it's not nearly as powerful as regular magic, but it is magic nonetheless. There's even a high level mage spell in DAO which negates other spells. Why would that spell be magic but not Templar talents? Templars use lyrium to enhance their talents, while mages use lyrium to power spells. Templar's talents are simply a very limited, specific kind of magic. The Chantry doesn't want to call it that, but that's do to their anti-mage bais. --Silver Warden (talk) 03:47, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Fade is magical it self. Magic has much to do with the demon invasion. You simply hate templars and blame them, mages also uses lyrium, when they are out off mana. You gave no argument. Both sides killed each other in one place and it opened the veil permanently. In this battle mages lost, templar lost, demons won.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 08:12, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

He is not placing blame at the templars feet, he's simply making a point that with mages using large amounts of magic, and templars using large amounts of (anti)magic to combat the mages the 2 together may have attributed to the tear. Couple that with the large death toll caused from the fighting and yeah i can see where he's coming from. Personally I think theres some sort of single entity behind the tear and not necessarily an event, but I see his argument is valid. Please do not try and twist the words of his argument as that could spark another rather large arguement, then nobody is discussing anything, they're just yelling at eachother...Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 15:00, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ferris, that's exactly what I meant. Nobody wins in war. As for a single entity causing the tear, that would require that a single entity manipulated events in order to trigger the war, which I guess is possible. I believe it's already been confirmed that the tear is the result of the war. Just exactly how the war caused the tear has yet to be explained, though. And naturally, if an entity like Flemeth wanted to tear the Veil and was merely using the war as a means to end, then it could be said that she (or he, or it) was the actual root cause of the war. It's simpler to assume that the tear is a natural catastrophe, like real world pollution, but if it is the end-game of some hidden antagonist, that wouldn't really surprise me. --Silver Warden (talk) 22:24, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

It wouldnt necessarily mean they HAD to manipulate the events themselves, I've always personally saw it more as an opportunist taking advantage of the chaos. MT war aside, theres still Orlais's civil war, The warden's are distracted, Ferelden still recovering from the blight, I'll assume Tevinter is still fighting Qunari (Tho I am well aware we probably wont be going to tevinter, I'm just sayin) There's a lot going on all at once, and with so many powerful people preoccupied, and the usual fantasy trope of needing an antagonist to overcome, I can only envision a single entitiy of some kind behind it all. I don't think it's Flemeth, I think she may just be a red herring. To go slightly off topic, if anyone played Elder Scrolls Oblivion, I'm getting a bit of flash backs to that game, gates to a demon realm opening all over, preping an invasion, but at the end of it all you still had to fight mehrunes dagon. The story needs an 'end' that's not just some Deus ex Machina ~ Magic mcguffin ~ suddenly the veil is fine. In Awakening, after you've killed the baroness and the queen of the blackmarsh, the veil slowly repairs itself and makes that place somewhat liveable again. food for thought. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 13:54, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

It is kinda like the oblivion gates, though in that case the gates were a direct result of Dagon's plan. It ultimately backfired for him. Ironically, in Skyrim every Daedra expect Dagon can access the mortal world more easily do to the events of Oblivion. In Dragon Age, the Veil is a natural phenomenon, not something caused by a single specific action like lighting the dragon fires. Also, Dagon is exponentially more powerful than any demon encountered thus far in Dragon Age. If you took the demon Sloth from the Broken Circle quest, (who is possibly the most powerful demon seen so far) gave him the cunning, ambition, and raw power of Corypheus, wrapped that power up in the power of all seven Old Gods combined, and then gave him the religious following of a dragon cult ten times the size of the one seen in Haven, you'd get something close to Dagon. There's no evidence of any demon that powerful, or even that motivated. Remember, demons feed on a specific vice of mortals, but do not invent plans themselves. An event like this would require a level of creativity no demon has ever exhibited. Perhaps there is some sort of fade creature other than demons or spirits that we've yet to see, but a doubt any demon could be powerful enough or clever enough to cause massive Veil tears to appear all over Thedas.

If there's a single antagonist that's manipulating events or taking advantage of them, I think it will come from outside the Fade, not within. --Silver Warden (talk) 17:41, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

Not to pour gasoline on a dying fire here, but deaths cause veil tears. no one argues that. but what could cause something this dire? a crap ton of magic (mage and templar magic) could weaken the veil around sites of major battles, but something this big, and large scale? the old god baby being behind this is unlikely, due to age and the possibility of him not even existing. morrigan or flemeth might actually be the cause, as no one knows what either of them are really planning but this seems too "world end-ey" for them... there are a lot of powers that are fighting here, and none of them are able to fix these tears, right? to me that says flemeth... or some spirit monster that we havent even heard of... also dragons are all over this too, what woke them up? flemeths plan with maric? the grey wardens are fighting some sort of secret war... r something, what could cause all of this? Aliens. Lord Aeducan (talk) 16:33, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

What if it turns out Flemeth was "good" all along, and she's only been manipulating events, and jumping bodies in order to prepare for a fight against some sort of arch enemy of hers, who is really responsible for the tear. So yeah, Aliens... Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 16:42, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Is this the new threat we face?! Emilia Da'len (talk) 17:29, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Alistair quoted "Here I am afraid of breading a poor bastard and I didn't even think that it will be a dragon a god or something else!" http://www.deviantart.com/art/DAO-Alistair-Morrigan-baby-158333340 http://www.deviantart.com/art/DAO-Alistair-Morrigan-baby-158333340 FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 18:03, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Considering said child doesn't even exist in many players playthroughs, I should hope that it is very unlikely. ----Isolationistmagi 15:32, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

@Sliver Warden The mgaisters were certainly an exception, but we still know in the world of DA that there are limits. I’m not 100% sure what you mean by “otherwise there would be be tears around all the Circles.” I agree with you here. Considering that GO recognizes a Elven Warden (if they choose to tell the truth) he mentions the ancient elves planting the seeds of what would become the BF. I don’t doubt that they use “magic”, but mages are called mage because they are individuals who can manipulate mana and thus cast spells which is magic in its purest since. The dwarves can make “magic” with enchantments as well, however take away their and Templars lyrium, and I’m nto so sure they’d be doing or making anything magical. Templars and Dwarves can’t control mana which is the only real reason I said they can’t cast spells.

@Everyone else I think the idea of a single enity pulling the strings is an interesting plot. Flemeth and Morrigan have warned of things to come and Morrigan’s dialogue in the trailer for DA:I makes me think that the world is possibly ending (or that maybe the Inquisitor can let it end).

@Isolationistmagi I'll look for it, but I'm pretty sure DG suggested on the social site that Morrigan could still obtain an OGB even if you reject her. Though he hinted she would have to do something much worse than an ancient sex spell. A recurring feature in DA games thus far is that regardless of choice, options are always open. Danga returns for DA:I regardless of whether you help her, just as Morrigan and Flemeth return if you "kill" them. I think we'll be getting OGB regardless of what people chose. I'm definitely interested in seeing what the OGB would be like especially if the father is Alistair considering he has dragon's blood. --Jamirflyd (talk) 19:28, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

I meant that death + magic is likely the cause of tears. Obviously, the Circles have dozens of mages using magic constantly, so magic alone does not cause tears. Death is a component too.

The dwarves don't make magic, they manipulate lyrium to create things. That's not magic, that's just specialized smithing. Templars do use a kind of magic. Now, if you're going to define magic as spells cast by mages, then obviously Templars aren't using magic. But if magic is defined more broadly, then Templar and spirit warrior talents are magical. Templars can negate spells. They don't do this by simply decapitating the mage. (Although that works too). They use magical talents to disrupt spells and/or drain mana. Is it magic on the same scale as spells cast by novice mage? Nope. But it's still magic. The fact that Templars need lyrium for these talents is further evidence of this. Mages use lyrium to fuel their spells, so why is it any different when Temmplars use if to fuel their talents?

As for the OGB existing regardless of players' choices, I find that unlikely, if only because it would upset a lot of fans. But if it does happen, I can think two scenarios where Morrigan gets the baby even if the Warden and Alistar/Loghain reject her:

Scenario 1: Riordan. Now, I know that Morrigan tells a female Warden that he's too old for it to work, but maybe she uses him as a plan b. Riordan dies in every scenario so his life can never be spared. Though that doesn't explain why the Warden/Alistair/Loghain die anyway. Maybe the ritual only partly works with Riordan - she gets knocked up but a warden still dies.

Scenario 2: Morrigan steals some preserved Archdemon from the warden's vault. She's kidnaps some poor saps and forces them to undergo the joining. Then she performs her ritual on the new warden and gets impregnated with Urthemiel's reincarnation.

Alternative (and completely ridiculously) scenarios include her kidnapping a pregnant woman and turning her into a warden, or some sort of vile necrophilic rite with Urthemiel's corpse. BTW, what do they do with a dead Archdemon? --Silver Warden (talk) 03:45, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's unlikely that the child or Morrigan are responsible for the Veil tears or that the OGB would be a boss for you to fight since the page for DA:I lists Morrigan as one of the Inquisitor's companions. Also I agree with Warden Mage: Ferris. I also think that the tear and the demon invasion is the work of a single entity (possibly Flemeth) and not something that just sorta happened. ArchonSeverusGaiusDraconia (talk) 02:03, December 5, 2013

Morrigan's not a companion in DAI. I think the page may have said that at one time, but I believe it has been confirmed that she is a significant character in the game, not a companion. --Silver Warden (talk) 02:40, December 6, 2013 (UTC)

Right you are, Silver Warden. She is not a companion. I stand corrected. Though I still don't think she or the OGB caused the Veil tear or the demon invasion. My money is on Flemeth or someone associated with Flemeth. ArchonSeverusGaiusDraconia (talk) 02:58, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Demon War is also a good name.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 21:36, December 9, 2013 (UTC)