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I have a quick question about marrying Alistair as a human noble.
Are you able to discuss marriage with Alistair before the landsmeet at Arl Eamon's estate? I have had him marry me but he always seems suprised at the landsmeet when I persuade and say I will rule with him. I was just wondering if there was dialogue before the landsmeet that you could bring up?
Also on another not which I did not see in the possible conversation sections ...after sleeping with Alistair you can ask him where he sees this going. If you are a female noble and take option 1 he says that he will pretty much do what he can to keep you together no matter what with no negatives to his affection after the conversation. I am now playing through as an elf mage and just slept with him and did the same conversation and he started talking about duty and what not and after the conversation I got a -10 from him. Just an fyi.
Sounds more like the first time you played through he was hardened and the second time he was not. He'll give the duty speech to a human noble if he's not hardened and not engaged to her. TS2Aggie 03:20, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
Wow, Alistair is a racist! I knew he was a classist; if you're a female noble human and you make him king, he briefly brings up the "no kids" thing, but then quickly drops it, but if you're a human mage (or anything else, I imagine) it is the central reason he gives for dumping you after the Landsmeet (or at least trying to).
--NobleElissa 19:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
Lol I think he has some issues anyway. He just asked me to sleep with him and then he gets all pissy when I say we should stay together. What a guy....
as an almost templar i guess it's logical he is abit hursher towards mages LegionOfWardens 17:30, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
There are a number of story-driven reasons behind the game devs' choice to only let a human noble end up as queen: Alistair is royalty, and any children born from him will be the next monarchs of Ferelden and keepers of the Theirin bloodline. Can you imagine having elves or dwarves in there? The bannorn would never support them - elves are still looked upon as second-class citizens and a surface dwarf (which is what your PC will be to other dwarves) commands no respect whatsoever in terms of social status. Sure, you're the heroine who saved Ferelden from the Blight, but politics do not favor the heroes for long, especially in a crapsack world like that of DA:O. As for a human mage, remember Wynne talking to Alistair about having her newborn child taken away by the Chantry? That would happen to ALL the royal heirs. Goodbye Calenhad's bloodline. And not to forget that it is nearly impossible for Grey wardens to conceive children - Alistair is already struggling against the odds, so even a human noble has to be VERY persuasive in order to convince him to marry her.--John117XL 05:01, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
In a feudal society, marriage was NEVER about love. It was always about land and alliances. No one would expect Alistair to marry anyone except a woman from the highest family in the nobility or someone from the royal line in another country with whom Ferelden wished to ally. Only a woman from the house next in line to the throne (which I believe our heroine is) stands a chance at all, and that would be slim. The idea of marrying someone you love is a very recent one. Marriage has always been about financial and political advantage until a century or so ago. Even the lower classes married for advantage and not for affection. Since Ferelden is loosely based on Britain, this would be the case for them. Alistair would never marry outside his class...when you speak of the royal bastard the emphasis is on the royal part. William the Conqueror was known as Bill the Bastard because he was the son of a tanner's daughter. The Tudor's spurious claim to royalty was through a bastard ancestor who was also a woman. It's why Henry the VII did his best to kill off the remaining Plantagenets. Their claim of royal blood was much better than his.Maura007 02:48, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
@Maura007--that was a very intelligent answer, good on you for injecting some historicism into this conversation...
So you can't marry Alistair with a female mage?
- What about Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville? While she had royal lineage on her mother's side, most were very confused by the marriage, and considered he lost his head in love. - Wandrew (talk) 23:45, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
I was move peeved that it takes a certain amount of convincing just to stay on as a mistress. I married him off to Anora a few times and she was willing to tolerate my warden sticking around behind the scenes, but unless you play things just right, Alistair won't even consider the possibility. Rhaeven 01:49, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
I quite agree about the mediaeval aspect of the game and Alastair not being able to choose who he married. It is the public dumping after the being chosen as king I dislike. "Well, I'm king now, more choice of bed partners, so long, no longer desperately looking for someone to fancy me."
- Maura: that's all true and all, but DAO is a game in fantasy... LOOSELY based on reality. Emphasis on loosely and fantasy. 1) Given how many cultural aspects ARE radically different than medieval Europe, there's no reason that Ferelden nobility needs to by completely analogous to real life historical nobility. 2) Not being able to marry Alistair was a deal-breaker for many fan girls. Since it is fantasy, where is the harm?
- Lastly, there are innumerable RP-specific reasons why you could marry Alistair... (or least have SOME recourse). The fact is, it is only the limits of tree-dialogue that prevented you from saying something like "I'm going to f****ing marry Alistair or everyone in this room f****ING dies!!" Lore-wise, given how insanely powerful you become, and given that you've just slaughtered your opposition (Loghain), it would be easy to do. Sure, it's a chaotic neutral, borderline insane response, but it's still not nearly as bad as the "kill baby kittens" type responses available throughout the game. --User:Thc 00:36, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
I so LOVE that response! Hey...am I the Hero of Ferelden or WHAT?!? Is he the King?!? Anyone else want their head chopped off?!? No, I thought not. If Alistair's not hardened...what's he going to do, whine at you some more? If he is hardened he should jump up and agree with you. Too bad he didn't know at the time who his mother was...after all, all babies born to elves are human ;)
I just LOVED your post about midieval England. I read alot of stories about the Plantagents and Tudors and never knew the 1st Henry Tudor was a bastard on his mother's side. Very, very interesting. Are you a teacher or professor of English history?
John117XL:"Alistair is royalty, and any children born from him will be the next monarchs of Ferelden and keepers of the Theirin bloodline. Can you imagine having elves or dwarves in there? The bannorn would never support them - elves are still looked upon as second-class citizens..." If only the nobility realize that Alistar is actually half Elven, since his mother was an Elven, I wonder what their reaction would really be. Sure, he has a human likeness, but his blood, though Theirin blood, is also mixed with Elven blood as well. So to say that he shouldn't be allowed to marry an Elven Warden is kind of weak sauce. His father, Maric, had romantic relations with two Elven women. I wouldn't blame Maric... they're hot! And the character of Alistar, to me, is just so inconsistent. Sure, he's a comedian... but he's so immature and whiny and selfish and he obviously doesn't know what he really wants. He always talks about the lack of his leadership abilities and how he doesn't want to be king... and his beliefs about maleficarum and mages in general because of his semi-templar background... why does he even bother to be romantic with a female Warden mage to begin with? Such a hypocrite... and then talks about duty once he is to be king. I should slap him. You want to talk about duty? Get with the program from the very beginning, and not when it suits you best... bastard. Don't get me wrong, I laugh at his dialogue, but as a "man," he's quite an embarassment. As for offspring, if you are a mage... Isolde has no magic ability even though her grandfather was a mage. And since her son Connor has magic, I could assume it's random. So there is a possibility for Alistar and a female mage to marry and conceive with the possibility of their child not having any magic abilities. Amm879 13:19, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
I wish we were able to see the wedding at the end of the game. That would have been cool to see. I was kinda confused at the end tho. In the game it said that my warden was going to be queen but than in the slide show it said I became the princess consort. Anybody have an explanation? And whats with the consort part? --Catie-Cat-13 15:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that's a bug that happens to everyone who marries him to become Queen. A consort is someone who marries a ruling royal, but usually does not have the authority of their spouse. --Vavasor 16:14, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
I agree that Alistair is inconsistent. After sleeping with him as a nobel human female and I ask where this is leading he says some like "nothing will ever part us. Trust me" and then he is so surprised that I tell the Landsmeet I will rule beside him. He makes a sacastic remark about being made king and getting engaged all in one day and I saved him the trouble of asking me to marry him. Gheesh! Now, on my other playthroughs I marry him to Anora and stay with my love Zevran. At least Zevran is honest and doesn't change his mind! (You can tell the power of this game shines through by all of us talking about these characters like they are real)
Being the princess consort isn't a bug. That's what her title would be as Alistair's wife. Like how, currently, Queen Elizabeth II's husband is the prince consort. It's to keep the power in the family, so when the reigning queen/king dies, their spouse can't succeed to the throne. (And so that the spouse can't become too powerful in general.)
I really liked Maura's post (and Thc's post!), but something that bothers me about this game is that this kind of realism is inconsistently applied. For instance, Anora would never, ever have power devolve to her like that. She is a commoner. In fact, she wouldn't really be a queen herself, she'd be a princess consort. Everyone in the game just assumes that she is next in line for power, but in reality the next to succeed would be someone related to Cailan by blood. Because of the way noble families inter-married, the next in line would probably be someone in another noble family, a cousin or something. I wish that the writers would either be more of a stickler about these things, or would just let us have our happy ending -- one or the other, but not in between. Ellennn 10:14, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
Anora has common blood, but she is -not- a commoner. Her father was a Teyrn, just as your father was if you are playing a noble origin. There are only two Teyrnirs in the country, and they are second only to the King in rank. While her father was indeed a commoner raised to elevated rank, he is no longer considered a commoner and Anora was born into privilege. If you read the codex, the Couslands themselves were only the guards of the previous Highever family, but they took over the Teyrnir and became elevated themselves, so you could argue that the Couslands are commoners too if we're going by who has common blood. I agree that power should not automatically fall to her, because there is another with royal blood alive (Alistair). And I think the princess consort is a bug, because Alistair is not a prince. He is a King. Normally a King's spouse would become a Queen-consort. If they were to have heirs and Alistair were to die, the wife would become the Queen Mother, ruling as a regent if Queens must wait for their heir to be of age -- however Ferelden seems more, evolved in the sense that women seem to have more rights than they did in actual history (Grey Wardens, Anora seems determined to rule alone, etc) so she may just become a queen regnant herself. If we go by European history which Ferelden seems to be based off of, a prince-consort would indeed be the title of a royal who married a Queen, (if he were not already a King by birth or other means) while the wife of a King is almost always a Queen or Queen consort. Princess-consort is extremely rare.--Vavasor 18:56, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
But historically, isn't there a big difference between created nobility and born nobility, and only born nobility can pass on their titles? So that even though Loghain has been made a noble, his off-spring wouldn't necessarily inherit it? So they'd remain commoners? Regarding the princess-consort thing, sorry if I made a mistake. I assumed that if men become prince consorts, women would become princess consorts. Ellennn 23:00, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
The reason I think that Anora would inherit is that Maric specifically gave Gwaren to Loghain, so I assume he gave it to the his family should there be any heirs. Also since the aforementioned Couslands took the Teyrnir and seemed to have passed down their titles the same way.--Vavasor 23:05, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
Even if Anora inherited nobility from her father (and I'm not conceding that point), I still don't think she would succeed to the throne because it would have to be someone related to the royal line by blood. Not just any noble person. So it would be some other person, a cousin or other distant relative. Wouldn't it? Like right now, if Elizabeth II died along with all her progeny, her husband wouldn't become king -- it would be some other family member. Right? (I'm American, btw, so this stuff is somewhat foreign to me.) Let me know if I'm wrong. Ellennn 23:33, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with you there. Like I said up there ^ I don't believe that the throne should fall to her at all, just that she inherits nobility (and thus the Teyrnir upon her father's death, if events had gone otherwise). I'm not an expert on royal descent, and it is at best confusing. Plus, the traditions and laws of royalty differ from place to place, so I don't want to definitively state which is correct and which isn't. I believe they have been simplified for this game anyway. This reminds me of a similar historical situation: Catherine de' Medici was considered a "commoner" -- although her parents were a Duke and a Countess, but married Henry of France and became Queen Consort. --Vavasor 23:47, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
I think we're missing the fact that Ferelden follows reverse feudalism and not feudalism proper. The people raise the banns, the banns raise the Arls and Teyrns and the latter raise the king. Blood matters, but not as much as it would in a proper feudal setting where the power came from royalty down. There has to be much more social mobility in Ferelden than you would ever see in feudal England. Anora has the support of the populace, which means something in Ferelden, and the game wouldn't have been worsened by allowing Alistair to marry whoever the heck he wanted. If Loghain can go from ordinary soldier to a Teyrn, there's nothing stopping a Warden that saves Ferelden from being Queen. Thruxomatic
^^^(response to above unsigned paragraph): I guess that's in line with my point. The writers were somewhat inconsistent in how they adopted and applied these social mores. Ellennn 10:10, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
"Catherine de' Medici was considered a "commoner" -- although her parents were a Duke and a Countess, but married Henry of France and became Queen Consort."
Dukes and Counts are old Roman state officials that succeeding kingdoms adopted because the old Roman bureaucracy survived the fall of the Roman Empire, to an extent. As such, they were employees of the emperor/king, not nobility. A dukedom was a region of military administration and the Duke headed that administration. A county was a legal and tax region, headed by a Count. As employees of the crown or state, there was no legal requirement for holders of the office to be of noble birth. Thruxomatic
You have to remember that Loghain is still human. There is STRONG prejudice against elves and some against dwarves. I agree that a human Warden who was not nobility could become Queen, maybe even a mage like Amell, but there still would be a lot of fussing among the nobles. Ciabella