So in another argument on another thread, I ran into a startling idea. According to a certain someone, magic exists entirely within the realm of warmaking, and has no uses besides. Or, put bluntly, magic is only what we can use in the games, and nothing more. Now, I found this idea to be quite narrow-minded, because I felt like there was more than enough peripheral evidence, though nothing substantial, that magic existed in a much more general form, and was useful for far more than simple warmaking. However, the person I was arguing with insisted that we must stick to what we see in the actual games, and that the only spells we see in the games have little, if any use, beyond martial prowess. I'd like ask the wiki's opinion, to see if I'm the only one who thinks that magic certainly has uses outside of what we can see from using either the Warden or Hawke. Rathian Warrior (talk) 17:48, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I don't remember magic being used for much outside of battle. I mean probably the biggest thing I could think of it being used for was healing. And to be fair that can be extreamly useful in the 'medieval age' that DA is set in. But otherwise I can't really think of much that it was used for, it could be used for researching reasons again that would be useful in a medieval age. So i'm on your side for this. Dawnofdoom999 (talk) 17:53, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I think I was the one heavily supporting your argument in that thread lol, but yeah I'm with you, sure we may not have much evidence of magic being used outside of combat but, from what we know, that magic is simply shaping energy through the use of Mana (or blood or lyrium). I believe that there are more than likely more practical uses of magic depending on how the user shapes those energies. We probably don't see much non combat uses for magic because as a game series focused on combat and a whole game that tries to show the evils of magic (DA2) we are not likely to see these applications, especially if DA3 is about the Mage-Templar war. MrRexfire (talk) 18:00, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that I can remember discussions in the game or in Codex entries that imply (or state) that magic is used in the crafting of certain general usage items. Obviously if it can be used to craft weapons and golems, it would stand to reason that it could be used to craft other items as well. Now it might not make sense (e.g., financially) to use magic to make a simple chair, but it could certainly be done.

While obviously an outside source and not directly relevant, the Recluce series by L.E. Modessit deal deeply with the proper and improper usages of magic and the possible consequences of the same. Great series (at least in the beginning). Mabberton (talk) 18:26, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

It does exist outside of warfare, however the school of creation stands out from the other schools. Hence why it is entry in the codex "Those mages who have made a serious study of creation are the highest in demand, useful in times of peace as well as war."98.233.217.33 (talk) 18:31, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

As has been stated before, magic can be used everyday for healing purposes. It can also be used as a sealant to keep weather/people from damaging or stealing things- the phylactery chamber and the warden treaties, for example. Additionally, the spell cone of cold can be used to put out burning grease, so it should theoretically be able to put out fires and save burning buildings. The sleep spell could be used to help an insomniac, and a paralyze spell could keep a person needing an amputation from jerking and making their situation worse. Paralzye and force field could also be used in the apprehension of criminals. I'd also wager blasting rock with fireballs could be useful in mining. Even blood magic has uses outside of warfare, as evidenced by Merrill using it to rid her eluvian of the taint. ----Isolationistmagi 19:04, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

You can use Blizzard to put out a grease fire. :p

(Don't try it at home though. Water into hot grease makes it pop and shoot all over.)

You can also animate the dead and have a model of the human skeleton. Where do you think the high schools get them from? Also makes for a great ventriloquist act. "I KEAL YOU!"

You can also use Sleep to help insomniacs. Also great for putting all the brats at the daycare down for their naps.

The Misdirection Hex is great for parties. Try hitting a piñata or pinning the tail on the donkey with that hex on you. I dare you!

Stinging Swarm provides free acupuncture! :D

Need a dance partner in a pinch? Blood Control is for you!

Late to work? Get there with Haste! Believe it! (talk) 19:05, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

There is already evidence in-game that magic has uses besides war. I forget the name but there is a guy in DA:O that sold fake scrolls to mages in the tower, when you kill him you can loot a helmet from him that talks about having a picture of a loved one show on it, through magic. Morrigan gives you a ring that helped her locate you, via 'magic'. That'd be usefull for lost children, pets, spouses etc. That 'Spell Wisp' could be used as a lamp in mines so as to not worry about explosions. All it takes is a little imagination. Friendlysociopath (talk) 20:29, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

The codexes heavily imply that magic has many noncombat uses; spirit/demon summoning, entering the fade, healing, cleansing tainted objects...and a lot more than I can think of at the moment. In fact, in all game engines with magic has it more powerful than the spells in the game. Spells are codification of magical prowess, not just all there is. Hitokiri Akins (talk) 21:17, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

In the Codex (I think) it says that the job of the first Chantry mages was to keep the candles in the Val Royeaux cathedral burning permanently by using their magic. Flame blast anyone? Blightpig (talk) 22:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

It's likely that the spells you can learn in-game are only the deliberately weaponized variations. A low level fire spell could be used for something as minor as lighting a fireplace -- provided you don't have a Rod of Fire handy, of course. Son Goharotto (talk) 00:11, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I understand the thread very well, but I'll give it a shot. Magic we see in both games is used only for combat. Outside of it, you have alchemy. Mages aren't so numerous as it was presented in DA2. Ferelden barely had over 100 of them before the Broken Circle. (me thinks) Now, what does the number of mages have to do with the use of magic? Only old and respected members of the Circle have the right to leave the Tower and go in the service of the King or do some research. Outside of Circle Towers, magic is almost none existing. If you count out crazy apostates now and than.

If you are looking for Harry Potter magic I doubt you'll find one. In game at least, visible. Theres no doubt that students in Circle do all kinds of chores using magic. Like "making dishes wash themselves and pile themselves on the shelves" or "sending brooms to clean the floor all by themselves" etc...

But, for the needs of the game, we only see combat magic. Again, that doesn't mean the other type of magic is none existent.--Markurion (talk) 05:21, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

We DO see the use of magic apart from combat. Merrill and Wynne both raise and disperse barriers. And the ancient Tevinter mages CLEARLY used magic for things other than combat. They opened the gateway into The Fade using magic (and a few thousand slaves). That was termed as a "ritual".

Unfortunately, we don't have as many sourcebooks as we do for say, D&D, so we don't have the entire scope of the arcane in Thedas. But it's rather clear magic is used for other purposes. Irving uses it for someone to enter The Fade, Morrigan uses it to transfer the Taint from a male Warden (if you know what I mean). Zathrian cursed the humans. Uldred transformed his fellows into abominations. E.t.c. There's Litany of Adralla too. - 05:29, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Gabi, all examples you gave are somewhat related to combat magic. I think Rathian was more concerned with magic like lighting your candle with finger movement, or turning the pages with air while reading the book and floating in a room. Imagine this:

Warden approaches Morrigan in camp. Shes asks: Hey there my Warden. Want some apple? She lifts her hand and apple from the nearest tree flies into her hand.--Markurion (talk) 06:00, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

That spell can also be used to make something FLY into an opponent and possibly bash the brains out. If you think about it, a lot of spells can be used for non-combat means. IE: Use haste on a horse and win a horse race! Make tons of money! Or use electricity for a back massage. Use cone of cold to instantaneously freeze ice cream. Animate a skeleton and make it sweep the floor. :P - 06:45, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well.... you got me there, Gabi. Combat magic can really be used for other things than combat. Principle is the same. Mr Miagi, lol! :D :D--Markurion (talk) 09:38, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'm the "certain someone" that Rathian Warrior refers to. Unfortunately, he has severely misrepresented my original point, which was that the magic spells besides the Creation school and Spirit Healer specialisation have little use outside of warfare in the big picture. (see [1]] here for more information.) The whole reason I brought this up in the first place was to address the issues with integrating mages into urban society - i.e. to persuade the rest of the populace that mages are not a threat to them, your powers should have a capability for something that can benefit the society in a non-military way. This effectively rules out going into the Fade and the current suggestions from -, Markurion and Believe it! (no offence, just clarifying what the discussion is supposed to be about).

Also, we are looking for the CASTABLE magic, not enchantment. Why? Because the enchantment is done by TRANQUIL (dwarves too, but they don't have mages, so the entire issue is irrelevant to them) and so arguments involving the enchantment strengthen the case of templars like Ser Alric and thus weaken the case for mages' freedom (which is what the original forum was about.) Once you take these two factors into account, we are left with healing and using advanced cold spells to extinguish fires (which might not work if the people are still there, since you risk freezing them) as our best arguments (the link above has a more detailed analysis). Using sleep to help insomniacs is somewhat redundant, since 100% effective sleeping powder already exists. Using fire spells for mining would burn out oxygen, never mind the radiated heat, so it is also out. If you can think of other uses, great, because I can't.

Finally, if you are citing from the game or book/comic series, can you please use direct quotes, since one phrase can be interpreted in different ways by different people, and we don't really want it here. 4Ferelden (talk) 08:12, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Again, as I'd like to point out: most things can be used for hurting people. The reason we mostly see combat magic is because they're used in COMBAT in the games. if you think about it, almost ALL D&D spells are also combat spells (apart from what would be placed in creation school in DAverse). The ones that don't qualify would be divination, but as divination defunct in Thedas... yep, not much to show. Even a spell for boiling water without heat can be used in combat, just like you can use a steak knife to kill people (and Olaf's Cheese Knife , which was pretty powerful if picked up earlier in the game... for unfathomable reason). Even in Creation schools you can see combative magic. But then again, Sleep (Dragon Age II) can be used for insomniacs as a cure.

And to be honest, a lot of non-combative magic in D&D aren't used in the gameplay either. Q'arlynd Melarn from the Lady Penitent Trilogy removed the taint from the drow, and that's not combative at all. And do we ever get to use it as a spell? Nope. How about Karsus' Avatar? Nope.

If the mages only used the cone of cold to make ice cream, then they won't appear threatening to the common folk either. But if a spell to boil water without heat was used on Sebastian to boil his blood, then immediately that magic is dangerous. Similarly, if Genitivi used the book of Chant of Light to bash someone's head in and kill him, then Genitivi would appear dangerous. But that doesn't mean the Chant of Light (the book) is combative.

By your logic, you can also say Wade (and any blacksmith) are making combative instruments and therefore are dangerous. It's not the type of spells that make mages appear dangerous, but HOW they use it. Anders didn't appear dangerous as long as he remained in his clinic and healed people of broken legs and venereal diseases, did he? - 08:30, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK, then come up with non-combative uses for those types of spells! I'm aware that most things can be used to hurt people; however, some things specialise in hurting people over other uses when compared to others. The problem with magic in Thedas is that it has to compete not just with mundane means to accomplish the same goals, but also with enchantment, which has the backing of the current authorities in Thedas (Chantry/Templars) and is inherently more reliable. Your example with ice-cream for instance, would require extreme fine-tuning from the mage and would have to be stopped whenever the mage needs to eat, sleep or simply to recharge mana, during which time the ice-cream can simply melt. Enchanting the box to maintain sub-zero temperatures, however, is a reliable process with none of the faults inherent to using mages. Even though it is initially expensive, the enchantment doesn't have any further costs and so will pay itself back soon enough. 4Ferelden (talk) 08:48, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I believe Believe It! has already done that with much humour and creativity, but let me quote it:

You can use Blizzard to put out a grease fire. :p

(Don't try it at home though. Water into hot grease makes it pop and shoot all over.)

You can also animate the dead and have a model of the human skeleton. Where do you think the high schools get them from? Also makes for a great ventriloquist act. "I KEAL YOU!"

You can also use Sleep to help insomniacs. Also great for putting all the brats at the daycare down for their naps.

The Misdirection Hex is great for parties. Try hitting a piñata or pinning the tail on the donkey with that hex on you. I dare you!

Stinging Swarm provides free acupuncture! :D

Need a dance partner in a pinch? Blood Control is for you!

Late to work? Get there with Haste!

I've also seen a mage give massages with electricity spells, cut up meat by freezing them and shattering them when cooking, destroy buildings for demolition with earthquake, save children from fire with Force Field in a lot of their own fictions... some people are very creative. - 08:56, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Very funny, but Earthquake to demolish buildings and Force Field for saving people in danger are the only uses that might make a medium-to-strong case to ordinary Theodosians. If these are truly the best arguments available to us, then expect the Tranquil Solution to become the new black as soon as someone discovers the electric current. Ser Alric might then be commemorated as the "the man ahead of his time, a brave visionary...who knew what had to be done... but was tragically stopped by murderous abomination calling itself Anders. He now rests in peace in the rebuilt Chantry of Kirkwall, dedicated to him and other victims of the cursed mage uprising in 9.40 Dragon." (Huge statues of him being built and Kirkwall and everywhere else are optional extras.) 4Ferelden (talk) 09:21, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so this whole topic started with 2 guys arguing whether or not mages deserve to be killed or not? Jesus...

4Ferelden, I would have to say that arguments ,explained by Gabi, Believe it! and me, have merit and should not be discarded easily. Everything in this world and Thedas could be used as a tool and a weapon.I think we humans of Earth pretty much proved that countless times in history. But you are all overthinking. Gaider and Knowles themselves didn't bother their brains to find every possible detail and solution to the game problems.

Mages are jerks who seek excuses to become bullies. Templars are self righteous assholes who think that every mage is the same. But not every templar is asshole, and not every mage is pathetic squid who cries and justifies usage of Blood magic with templar repression. Things are NOT Black and White, and making them so would be huge mistake. --Markurion (talk) 10:07, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

To be precise, it started with RathianWarrior misrepresenting my position on the matter. Yes, I am aware that just about everything can be used as a weapon. Your arguments certainly have merit, but as I have said many times, we are looking for applications that will alleviate fear of magic AND survive competition with Chantry/Templar supported enchantment and so far, most of your collective suggestions have been quite novel and wouldn't really fit the bill and some would actually be harmful to this cause.(I doubt the general populace will look kindly on using magic to cheat in competitions, for one.) If magic cannot offer enough in peacetime to compete with the enchantent/non-magical means, then the best-case scenario is mages kept only for military campaigns, and worst is Tranquil Solution implemented for real. 4Ferelden (talk) 10:32, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the argument started when I said that we could reeducate Thedosians by showing them how magic could be useful in everyday life. However, this was 4Ferelden's response verbatim:

"Ccg08, where in the game does it state that mages are capable of summoning rain or doing any water-based magic? I agree with Rathian Warrior's point that it would be better if mages were treated with respect and compassion instead of fear and prejudice. However, this ignores a crucial question: how do you teach people to abandon their distrust of mages when ABSOLUTE MAJORITY of their spells ARE ONLY USEFUL IN THE WARTIME? Seriously, have another look at the spell trees in Origins, and try to come up with peaceful uses for the non-Creation/Spirit Healer spells. In fact, I have already done so here:

Arcane tree: even the shield spells have no uses outside of war.

Anti-magic tree/Mana Drain tree: has no uses outside of combat with mages.

Mind Blast tree: using Force Field to protect people from avalanches etc. is the only peacetime application.

Walking Bomb/Drain Life trees: focused on TORTURING ENEMIES TO DEATH and manupilating the dead - possibly the worst PR for any mage.

Hexes: useless outside of combat situations.

Weakness/Disorient tree: partial mind/body control - again, really bad for building up trust.

Lighting tree: no civilian uses.

Stone tree: using Petrify/Stonefist combo for clearing roads? Using Earthquake to try and dig up the fields? That is about all civilian uses I can think of.

Fire tree: Using fire spells for rubbish incineration/cremation is effectively the limit of its non-lethal applications.

Cold tree: Using Blizzard for fire-fighting is the only peaceful application possible.

Arcane Warrior/Battlemage/Keeper: purely militaristic specialisations.

Shapeshifter: Using the strength of the bear form for physical work is the only potential application here. This specialisation also adds a level of distrust to the mages: you can never be sure if the animals passing you by aren't disguised mages, villagers killed by bears/spiders would be blamed on the shapeshifter, etc.

Blood mage: Too dangerous, even if the distrust were to go away.

So, I guess you can see the problem: most magical spells are about killing, either directly or through aiding warriors. This is not a problem for Dalish, as they live in a forest filled with dangerous creatures but average citizen in Denerim doesn't want fireballs exploding in their city, or hear screams of people trapped in Crushing Prison. Restricting mages to peaceful spells probably wouldn't work; Chantry already tried an extreme of that and it has resulted in mages choosing Circles. Sending all mages to the regions of fighting is again very restrictive and would probably violate their freedom and right to safety.

In short, there are no simple solutions to the magi problem."

So I don't think I misinterpreted much of anything at all, really, but your entire viewpoint strikes me as very narrowminded. Of course the mages we play and fight in Thedas use mostly combat magic because Dragon Age isn't a game about farming or knitting, it's about combat. However, the fact that there has been no definitively stated "rain making spell" (which isn't out of the question, considering other things mages can do) does not preclude one's existence, as you seem to believe. While yes, I believe that certain kinds of speculation should be discouraged (8th Old God) I don't think that stretching our mind to believe in other forms of magic, or other uses for existing forms of magic, is all that difficult. Rathian Warrior (talk) 10:43, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for restating my original position in full. Next time, can you please do something like that WHEN you choose to relocate the argument and not after my "remainder"? I guess that only in this post should have had been replaced with mostly, but it is good enough otherwise. Even the Absolute Majority bit holds true, since even with the creativity of people on this forum, most of the spells are still unaccounted for. And finally, while some other forms of magic might still exist (although some possibilities seem to be ruled out in the game), there is still a difference between CONSIDERING THE POSSIBILITY of these unnamed forms, and accepting it as a fact, and I would rather stick with what we know so far and only start considering these "known unknowns" after we exhaust all possibilities of accepted forms of magic. 4Ferelden (talk) 10:59, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

... By the Creators, calm down boys. It's not like any of us are mages and are about to get our heads chopped off by a manic templar. Let's leave violence to Anders and Co, shall we? - 11:08, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

There's a canonical use for magic being used far a cival service. Lighting lamps. Really. In of the codex entries (one of the history of the circle volumes I think) actually details that a high ranking offical (either the high cleric or empress) of Orlias had their circle (this was before the "mage colony" idea) light the lamps of Val Royuex. It ended in rebellion and housing the circle away from civilization.CrowInvictus (talk) 11:41, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

And THAT is MY point to this topic. ( TO ALL) Mages didn't earn their distrust because they didn't use magic for simple chores. They gained their distrust thanks to Tevinters and their Blood magic. If the Divine would declare to whole world that from now on it is impossible for mages to use Blood magic, most of the ordinary folks in the world if not all, would rejoice and would not look on mages the same way. That still leaves the small problem with Demon possession, but increased training and research with darkspawn Taint could possibly solve that problem. It's not just a mage's obligation to prove himself innocent and worthy in the eyes of the normal people. Those normal people should also try to give their best at understanding mages and bringing them to the open world without cages and oppresion. This is JUST like Medieval Europe. Before the Church and her Inqusition, no one hunted witches and even went to them for helping potions and some such...

Chantry came, told everyone that mages are evil, and now even if mage helps peasant and extinguish the fire in his barn, peasant will just attack him with pitchfork. Why? Because he doesn't know better. Education(of both mages and non mages) is the key, not useful spells.--Markurion (talk) 12:13, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Agree with that mostly, but which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did people believe the mages to be evil because the Chantry said so, or because a lot of mages did evil deeds for a very long time? Anders and Orsino have done nothing to improve the mages' reputation. And the mage when you meet Alistair doesn't really do much to improve impressions either.

If you'd recall, people were fairly accepting of Anders while he was just a healer. And if the Tevinter Imperium didn't get corrupted (again), maybe people would have been a bit more accepting. But with blood mages being able to control others, Kirkwall being blown up, Tevinters sacrificing people left and right, and rumours of Ferelden Circle's debacle going around (remember, you hear about it from the civilians in Lothering and Denerim)... I'm not surprised people are terrified of mages. And people are pretty helpless against mages; we've all seen Wynne kill Gaxkang with one spell, or Bethany levelling a platoon of bandits (or at least, she did with my playthrough). Mages are ridiculously powerful.

I'm not saying the people are innocent, but I do admit that some fear for the mages is warranted. It's like having a gun as your arm; yes, some people do use it to defend the weak and the poor, but you hear about those kinds of people going trigger-happy in the middle of the park more often. Soon enough you're going to fear EVERYONE with a gun as an arm. It's self-defence mechanism. - 12:37, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Unless of course you live in a place where as a result of their widespread prevalence and acceptance, it is assumed that anyone could have those abilities and thus no incidents occur. If the assumption is that anyone could be a mage capable of launching a fireball back at you, then the odds of you firing that first fireball are greatly diminished, regardless of the reason. MrRabbitSir (talk) 23:30, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well now that I see what 4Ferelden said I can see his point about what use mages would have in comparison to the tranquil who make runes or just common laborers. So let me address this point seriously. Yeah, I can be funny and/or serious, especially when I'm seriously funny.
It is logical that the Chantry would keep mages locked up unless they demonstrated a use that warrants the risk of them going apostate, hurting people, or turning into abominations. Tranquil don't have that problem, and they don't have to be watched over by templars every waking minute. A mage, even a good one, would need to be looked after AND guarded by templars while said mage completed said hypothetical tasks such as making ice-skating rinks or jumpstarting the Frankenstein monster.
So what tasks could mages do that tranquil runes or elf laborers can't? Well I guess you would have to go outside of what the game shows as available spells and perhaps make things up. Kind of a sloppy answer, but as others have said the spells in the game are specifically designed for combat/support. So aside from the other things you could use those spells for (I'm sure some of the patrons at The Blooming Rose could think up some alternative use for the Stone Fist), you would necessarily HAVE to think outside the box on what the game lists. I mean, what did you expect, Anders distracting the darkspawn by pulling a rabbit out of his hat?
"Mowww!" ... Oops, wrong hat.
But I would like to point out a few other things. I don't think the Chantry would necessarily frown upon a mage using combat magic to help the nation. The Mana Clash spell for example would be great for stopping apostates and demons. Better than the templars actually. And the Anti-Magic Ward bestowed upon a templar would make things even better for them. And lets not forget how needed mages suddenly became when King Cailin faced the darkspawn horde.
Also, in regard to why the mages are feared, I don't think it's really because they might use magic to harm just as any soldier could use his blade to harm. If that were the case then all sharp things would be locked up as well. I think the main reasons they're locked up in the circle towers is because there are those on the outside that hate them and would do them harm and there are those in The Fade that would seek to possess them. Therefore they must be guarded and watched by templars. At least, that's how the Chantry sees it. I could think of better ways, but that's a topic for another time and place.
The main point is that mages can and are used outside the circle because magic DOES have practical uses both inside and outside of combat, but the risks of all the mages using their magic in whatever way they see helpful or market oriented is just too great to justify freeing them all. Some mages can be contracted out to do various things, but they would have to be guarded by templars unless they are senior enchanters who are trusted to look after themselves or trusted students, such as Wynne and Ines respectively. Believe it! (talk) 19:43, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I remember this argument well! :P Ah, how I fondly recall facepalming and logging out of the wiki... XD Its not that I have anything against you or don't see your point 4Ferelden, it's just that the last thread was filled with users who were stubborn and held very... strong opinions and kept bringing up previously refuted objections and refused to relent. I was not so keen on handling a derailed debate, since I felt I had argued enough on the subject of the thread. Your old view genuinly sounded like we can NEVER even consider the possibility of magic use outside of what has been demonstrated in the game and lore. I hope that if this was your view, you now realise it is very narrow minded. You now state that we could consider the possibility of magic use which has not been demonstrated in-game, but we cannot accept it as fact. I would agree with this :) I would just like to know, did your view change or did myself and Rathian Warrior misinterpret it? Ccg08 (talk) 20:14, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Horror can be used for entertainment purposes. Virulent Walking Bomb can be used for pest control. Animate Dead can be used for cheap, but peaceful labour. Just sayin' :) -Algol- (talk) 21:48, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Earlier in this forum someone mentioned a rain spell. Although there is nothing that says it does or does not exist, it seems like it should be possible. Some spells create ice (blizzard). Ice requires water. The mage might make the water with magic or use water in the air. If mages create water they could make it rain at least in a small area, right? If mages use water in the air they would have to condense all the water in a large amount of air to make that much snow/ice. If mages can condense water out of the air they could do that over a field to make it rain.--CouslandRogue (talk) 03:15, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ccg08: Yes and no. While I was aware of such possibility, I didn't think it warranted consideration. In this way, my stance on the problem had changed.

CouslandRogue: Actually, none of the frost spells actually create ice or indeed create anything for that matter. Instead, they REMOVE heat from a certain area, be it a cone, 5m circle or around party's blades/enemy body. This is what causes all damage from these spells. The ice is simply a byproduct of that process, created when the moisture in the air freezes from the sudden drop in temperature. If it were otherwise, Cone of Cold would simply create one huge icicle that would instantly drop to the floor and be generally useless.

Finally, Believe it!, what you have described is something that would probably be the most realistic solution: i.e. the restrictions within the circles are loosened, so that it would be more of a boarding school than a prison, with visits by relatives allowed, relaxed supervision (I still remember "Do you think templars watch us when we bathe" line in the Magi Origin), etc.. The order is kept by BOTH templars AND senior mages, with the two groups more-or-less equal. Tranquility is only kept for mage criminals and as alternative for Harrowings IN the most severe cases. Circles themselves are moved further into the countryside, so that the mages with the higher potential for destruction will be able to apply their powers on wild animals,darkspawn, etc. and not on fellow citizens, as would likely be the case inside cities. Until mages have enough years of experience, they are only allowed to go to cities under supervision of templars or if they belong to a special group like Grey Wardens. Combined with the Chantry reconsidering its stance on magic, the general distrust should slowly go away when such system is implemented. 4Ferelden (talk) 11:23, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I thought I read somewhere that only those who have not gone through the Harrowing can be made tranquil. Those who have completed the Harrowing cannot be made so. Also, I'm not so sure on your explanation for the cold spells. In the game we see cold air pouring or blowing from the mouth of the mage. So I think the cold spells work by the mage actually creating cold air and moisture, not simply dropping the temperature. Winter's Grasp has a clear directional force to it in how it "explodes" from under the target and through it. I say their magical energy creates the cold. Believe it! (talk) 18:42, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

This is true, Harrowed mages cannot be tranquilised. What Gallows was doing was illegal. - 18:48, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Dragon Age's lore about magic is very limited because much of its use can only be seen in combat encounters or through item enchanting and healing wounds. Detail about magic in Dragon age is scarce, well as I thought it would be. Still the possibility of exercising magic outside of the perspective of which we are already familiar with should not be diminish for magic can be exploited through whatever means depending on the need as it is in real life when considering witchcraft.... --Seeking Seer ( Talk ) 17:33, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

4Ferelden, your summation of using ice magic doesn't really explain it well. I fail to see how removing heat from the local area creates a perpetual local blizzard. Rathian Warrior (talk) 17:36, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Believe it!: Creating cold and removing heat are exactly the same thing. Likewise, cold air pouring out of the mage's mouth indicates nothing more than the temperatures being low enough for the exhaled moisture to condense and form a vapour. The clear direction to the Winter's grasp only implies that heat is removed from the specific direction and in a specific way.

Rathian Warrior: I would say that Blizzard is a two-level spell, just like Mana Clash: first level removes all heat from the area for the duration of the spell, accounting for the cold damage and freezing, while the second generates cyclic air currents in the area, allowing it to knock enemies down and making it into the proper snowstorm. 4Ferelden (talk) 10:45, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

That's not how blizzard's work. You don't create snow and ice and gale-force winds by moving air currents and making everything colder. Simply removing all the heat from a localized area would not create snow and hale, it would just make everything freeze. A spell like blizzard would require the actual summoning of ice and hale, much like the other primal trees would require the summoning of their respective elements. Coming up with complex explanations of why the spells work defeats their purpose, which is to be "magical." Rathian Warrior (talk) 13:05, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

@4Fer I agree with Rath. Your described method seems like a roundabout way to cast the spell. First, producing cold air and lowering temperature is not the same thing. You say the mage reduces the temperature present in a specific location. I say the mage summons/creates cold temperature in a specific location and sends it in a specific direction. That means the mage moves cold air into the location, pushing the normal temperature out. Let's apply your method to Flame Blast. Would you say that the mage raises the temperature within the area of effect cone thus producing flames, or would you say the mage creates flames and sends them passing through that area of effect cone? If your method were true then why does Cone of Cold have a directional force to it? Why is there a sound of wind blowing? According to your theory everything should be still and just simply freeze in place. Believe it! (talk) 15:13, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think the issue is less "here is how the spell works and that's why I'm right" and more that we're ignoring the origins of spells in the first place: magic. Magic exists outside of the realm of logic we are used to, so attempts to explain it scientifically should always be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, to a large degree, science and magic are complete opposites. If we look at things from purely observation we see that a mage can do impossible things fairly easily, all because of his magical ability. If a mage can summon fire, ice, lightning, rocks, demons, pure force, energy, and dozens of other things and bend them to his/her will, why wouldn't they be able to do something similar with water? Or for that matter, what is stopping the mages from using their abilities to do things that we have no idea that they can do yet? We simply don't know! Until we are given a definitive explanation of how magical power, mana, and things of that nature affect the world, I think we should maintain more of an open mind about the applications of magic. No, I'm not saying magic can do ANYTHING, but I think trying to define magic in terms of what we know in our world is somewhat futile, given how different it is than anything we know about or can relate to. Rathian Warrior (talk) 16:59, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

We all agree magic is the source, but it was the mechanics of the spell we were talking about. How it works. Believe it! (talk) 19:37, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

If I remember well, I think I read somewhere that originally, the Deep Roads were formed by dwarves working in concert with mages, and that that greatly aided in the construction. I think that there are numerous other references to magic helping in ancient architecture, such as with the Tower of Magi. Can't think of a specific codex entry, but yeah. If my memory was right, then that's a pretty big example right there of how magic can be useful outside of combat. (Not that combat is what people lack in this universe, anyhow. Lots of Deep Roads to clear of Darkspawn, y'know.) TheodoricEichen (talk) 17:19, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think that was only referring to the red lyrium mines in DA2, but I'm not sure. Believe it! (talk) 19:37, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Believe it, the thread's discussion is about whether magic has applications outside of warmaking. The current argument is about mechanics of the spell, yes, but it stems from a disagreement over whether or not a certain spell, the "rain-making" spell, can in fact exist. However, I believe that this argument won't solve the issue of magic's usability outside or war-making one way or the other, except to give mages one additional spell they can use for whatever purpose. While I think a mage would certainly be able to summon rain, I think it's important to think of the larger context of the argument: should we interpret magic narrowly, going by only what we see and assuming that magic is only useful to fight and kill and maim, or should we maintain a degree of open mindedness and assume that there may be applications of magic that we don't know about yet. Rathian Warrior (talk) 20:01, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

(Why did you delete this post Rath?) I know what the thread is about, but we had settled on that and had moved on to talk about something else. I think everything I posted thus far indicates that a rainmaking spell can exist, since magic could create the water. Or even in 4Ferelden's theory, take all the moisture out of the air and concentrate it into raindrops. I think 4Fer also agreed that such applications could be used, and thus mages could be contracted out of the circle for these purposes. But I don't think any of this indicates that mages can have total freedom because the risks of being attacked by mage-haters or possessed by demons are still too great. Those problems have to be faced before mages can have equal freedom. Believe it! (talk) 15:21, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

We know magic can do other things. It can wash a dog or clothing, alter local weather pattens, improve health, track people or objects, assist in the breeding of animals, put on amusing displays for nobles, change the shape or colour of an item, the limited movement of item, improve sight or observe at great distance, communicate at great distance, build structures and bring them down. Most mages do not seem able to fight very well, given how easy it is to slaughter them. Given this there must be aspects of magic beyond battle. We don't really see the non-combat aspects firsthand, but we don't really see knives used for anything other than murder, but we know they have other uses. Magic clearly has other uses. --58.106.66.129 (talk) 02:36, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the codexes do actually mention, here and there, that magic is used for a wide variety of things. In fact, that's probably why the Chantry doesn't just drown mages as infants; they can be used. But they don't often use them for battle, at least that's what implied by Greagoir's attitude towards Circle mages being conscripted for war, so obviously they must be useful for other things. And really, even if the spells themselves don't have peacetime applications (and I can definitely think of a few), enchantment is already a very strong argument for the usefulness of mages outside combat. And it's not like all enchantments are battle-oriented either; there are enchanted items that are explicitly stated to do things like make people quicker on their feet, make them luckier, make them more perceptive and focused, and so on. I can think of a lot of things you could do with that besides fighting. And like people have already said, even if there aren't spells besides what you use in-game (and really, I just find it hard to believe that the entirety of all magical research in Thedas for hundreds or even thousands of years boils down to a couple dozen spells). A lot of really good ones have been posted, so here's my idea: everyone's saying Cold spells don't have any use besides firefighting, but think about it: this is a medieval world, and thus they have no easy way to produce ice... except the people who can literally make it out of thin air. We take it for granted today, but before we invented refrigeration people could only preserve food by salting or pickling it or something, and even that would go bad after a while. And if Thedas ever discovers electricity, mages with lightning spells will basically be living, self-recharging batteries. --UrLeingod (talk) 05:56, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to argue the usefulness of specific spells per-say, but instead the idea that magic could be used outside of wartime, as 4Ferelden was asserting. I'm certain that there are dozens of applications for the spells we already do know of, and that there must be hundreds more we don't know of. Rathian Warrior (talk) 16:09, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, and we came to an agreement on that. 4Fer was then saying that the cold spells worked a certain way and I disagreed and showed evidence. Believe it! (talk) 18:06, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, when the thread starts getting really long I tend to kind of just skim through once I get down about halfway. --UrLeingod (talk) 03:25, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a case of gameplay and story segregation. There are probably loads of general use spells and other incantations and things that can be done in Thedas, but there is no reason to include them in an RPG video game spell library. When your mage levels, would you want to spend that hard-earned point to learn Crushing Prison or a nice litte cantrip that repairs mundane items or allows you to speak to housepets? Using D&D as a guide for a moment, there are hundreds of spells. Some are combat spells and some are Mage Hand, Mending, Light, Passwall, Heroes' Feast, Creat Water, etc. I'm sure stuff like that exists, there's just no reason to include it in game. Let's assume I'm a mage in Thedas. It doesn't matter if all I can use my magic for is to turn people's shoes blue. If there are people out there who can use Blood Magic and nuke things from orbit by waving their fingers, people are going to assume I'm like that, too. Profiling like that happends all the time in the real world as well. Wataru14 (talk) 03:47, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

There is a case of magic being used for something other than combat in DA2. Gascard DuPuis uses the noble's blood to track her down, just in case she gets kidnapped by Quentin. Finn also uses magic to locate the Eluvian, and Morrigan stole the book from the Dalish to activate it. - 00:55, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

On a completely mundane note, isn't there an enchantment on Finn's robes to keep them always crisp and clean? Wouldn't that qualify as proof of non-combat magic? Shenachie (talk) 04:21, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

While you are at it... I've just read this on BSN - "Hey guess what mages can heal diseases and can use their magic to grow crops (proven in the dragon age comic before you ask)." Anyone has any idea in which one? (It is definitely not in TSG.) Not that I'm willing to join your discussion - I'm too lazy for that :) - but I'd add this info to the wiki if it's true. Asherinka (talk) 15:57, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

in the eragon books elves who are somehow badass used magic to manipulate the earth to build structures which is pretty cool —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXSH3RLOCK (talk • contribs) 19:23, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

4Ferelden, to simplify a response down as much as possible, Mages could gain favour by being living Swiss Army knives. You are a business owner who has just found what could be a profitable mine. Now, right off the bat, to explore you'll need people equipped with torches. Or a single mage. You'll also need medics to tend to any man injured while clearing out the local wildlife. Or a single mage. While inside, the men might need fire for warmth and cooking, which means someone will need to lug in wood and then light it. Or a single mage. If they find something the group can't deal with they need to collapse the tunnels to cover their escape. Or a single mage. Sure, there's not a whole lot that a mage can do that can't be done via other means, but as you yourself stated before, the other options are really good at their one specific task (Like the bucket which has been enchanted to stay permanently cold). The mage can do that, and everything else. Their usefulness lies within their adaptability. RomeoReject (talk) 07:48, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

What you offer here, RomeoReject, is probably the most realistic solution to this problem. That said, the competition from the Tranquil enchantment will still be a serious issue, especially if any incidents were to occur - I can't really see many business owners choosing to employ a mage rather than using enchantments/employing more workers if someone else's business got devastated by demons after doing so. However, that is a necessary risk, since it would be virtually impossible to put the distrust of magic to rest otherwise. 4Ferelden (talk) 09:55, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Even if they don't trust mages, some business owners will probably hire mages anyway because it is much cheaper to hire one mage than to hire several workers and buy enchanted equipment.--CouslandRogue (talk) 04:21, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

I do believe that magic has non combat uses, the only reason we see magic used for combat is because it is a game. Well that's my opinion anyway. All hail Darkside! 203.45.127.20 (talk) 02:42, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Magic can also be used to avoid combat. Morrigan told to The Warden that she shapeshifted herself into animal form. Wolf or cat, depending whether she was among humans or in the Korcari Wilds.

Of course shapeshifting can be used for combat too. The Warden in The Fade and Flemeth in dragon form. --Mikatro1975 (talk) 14:23, June 12, 2012 (UTC)