Okay for the most Part
Origins had a fantastic story we felt importaint? we had control over our decisions and every decision mattered?
but what really made it amazing was the war
to save humanity from the Darkspawn? Fight the battle against the Blight?
And mages for templars?
i meen cmon ,
mages and templars have had a feud for years and years
and but do we really want to go through all that?
Why not a qunari invasion?
recruiting cities? elfs, golems? maybe spirits
we want something exciting,
all im hoping is DA3 doesnt screw the game more then they already did.
What do you guys think? is mages and templars really interesting?
Actually I think that conceptually the Mage/Templar conflict is far more interesting than a Blight. But after the way DA2 went down, I'm already kind of tired of it. I was almost exhausted by the stupidity of both sides, and I am very much hoping that DA3 doesn't force you to pick one side or another. Personally, I'd like to see the Mage/Templar conflict shape the setting, but have the main plot focus on something else. Also, you should sign your posts. --Liam Sionnach (talk) 15:12, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think DA3 will be only about the Mage/Templar conflict. I think it might start out with the conflict where you pick a side, but the Qunari invasion might happen soon enough, so it'll be up to you to unite the mages and the templars once more, along with recruiting several other groups, perhaps even several nations (iirc, it was confirmed DA3 would have a much larger map then DA:O, so it's likely you'll have to visit different nations). That's what I think the plot of DA3 will be about. I hope it'll be something like this, because a complete game of mages vs templars will get boring after a while. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 17:52, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
I share the opinion of mage/templar war being much more interesting than the blight in concept, and also believe that it could theoretically excel as the main plot of DAIII. On the other hand, this is the DAII team that is executing the transition, so I'm not really expecting the concept to live up to its full potential, quite the contrary. I expect it to fall far short of it. ----Isolationistmagi 20:33, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
I've had my fill of mage vs. Templar during DA2. It definitely won't go away for DA3, but I hope that either:
1) It will not be the prominent aspect of the story, but rather a sideline where the player can choose a side or even remain neutral if inclined to do so; or,
2) If it is the main focus, it must be very thoughtfully done, hopefully without predictable and cliché'd events, such as a treacherous betrayal by a high-ranking member of a faction. There needs to be a lot of content where M vs. T is a non-issue and the player can forget about it. edit: If that is the main DA3 quest line, it should end there. No uncertain ending so it drags on and on in future sequels. M vs T is an interesting part of the story/universe, but not enough to be the story. I would only tolerate that much focus on it for one game; if it becomes overwhelming & there's no escape from mage vs Templar I'm packing my bags and moving on to another RPG. [That was my post, forgot to log in again]──┤ │ Eganogard │ talk ├── 13:59, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
The entire Mage/Templar conflict is contrived. It's a smokescreen for something else entirely. Freedom for mages is not important at all compared to the rise of the Imperium, the nature of Blood Magic, the fall of the elves, the onset of the Blights and the darkspawn, the concept and founding of Grey Wardens, the founding of the chantry, the slow disintegration of the dwarves, and the role magic itself plays in all these things. Freedom is just a vehicle they are using to bring light to more important things. At least I hope so. If it really is a us vs them, Mage vs Templar game I don't think the game will do very well. The whole concept just isn't that interesting compared to all the other things going on in the wonderful world they created. The Grey Unknown (talk) 23:00, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
My take on this is that the Mage-Templar conflict might've made for an interesting plot for a book/tv series or an ongoing comic book, but not a game - it simply does not lend itself well to being played. And seeing how underwhelmingly it was handled in DA2, I'm not convinced they can do it well in the third installment either (though to be fair, the writers seemed unable to pick a story to focus on in DA2, so maybe if they put all their effort into coming up with a good story with the mage-templar conflict, they can make it work somehow - though I'm not holding my breath). However, I do think that Liam may have a point, that it has potential if it's not the focus of the main questline but rather used to flesh out the setting. That I could possibly get behind. Again, it depends on the dev team. All in all? I wish they'd pick a different storyline - one that lends itself better to a video game. Or, if it's like the impressions I've gotten lately from ME3 and DA2, that the BW writing team leave and go write comics, books and/or tv series, and hire people who actually want to write for roleplaying games. Matt-256 (talk) 22:49, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
I doesn’t matter what the plot is. DA2, imo, had a great idea for a plot. It was something refreshingly different than “OMG the world’s ending, and only you can save us!!” But then they delivered a game that had little room for player choice, felt disjointed, lacked forward momentum, had an ending that felt contrived (really, the idol did it?) and offered no closure (these ending worries sound familiar?).
So far, the only difference is that DA3’s gonna feature someone other than Garrett “the only person who can put the world back together Hawke.” Hawke wasn’t tremendously popular, but you’d be hardpressed to pin DA2’s biggest problems on him.
No, we’ve been given a Bioware Bandaid: the things that are easy to trumpet as fixed are changed and the rest remains the same. (and at the expense of their artistic integrity!)
Excuse my venting, but I’m not confident in BW’s ability to deliver on good concepts, give fans what they want, adequately handle fan feedback or (especially) provide a good ending (excluding DAO, you’ve got to go back to 2005’s Jade Empire to find a good ending). Since EA got involved the only thing they’ve done consistently well is write and develop characters. Maybe they’re to rushed, or maybe they’ve lost their touch or good writers. The results don’t ask questions.
So, it doesn’t matter what the plot is. In a few years you’ll remember DA3’s characters fondly and shrug at the plot (unless they ME3 it). Less fondly, you’ll remember how they said they’d listen to fan feedback and then released the same game for DA4. That’s just who BW is now. We shouldn’t expect anything more.126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:11, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
I actually agree with the above poster, while the plot of DA2 does at time feel very disjointed they at least tried to avoid origins cliched ridden story. It seems since DA2 came out origins has sort of been white washed and all it's little problems have vanished from most peoples minds.
Now, as for the actual war itself it could serve a decent backdrop but no so much a plot. Working under the assumption that I (and a few others I'm sure) have that the war is being manipulated by someone for another purpose two origin stories would work very well, one mage one templar who similar to DA:O set out to find a different way to resolve the war/uncover some huge secret. It's a bit more of a compromise between both camps without throwing their hands in the ear and calling DA2 a complete failure.
I think it has the potential to be an interesting but they'd need to make sure things are balanced. DA2 in my eyes tried but failed to create a grey area when it came to which camp was good and bad. Instead of rationally explaining to the player that both sides do in fact have valid points they chose the more obnoxious route of throwing the most ridiculous "crazy blood mage" and "xenophobic Templar" stereotypes at us to show that neither camp is smart enough to be a grey area. --Tabristhegreat (talk) 03:41, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
I really don't know anymore. The idealist in me is hoping Bioware will get their shit together and actually start caring about the fans but the cynic in me calls the idealist retarded and simply does not have anymore fucks to give.Aleksandr the Great (talk) 05:05, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I would prefer that DA3 not revolve around the Mage vs. Templar war but that is not why I am worried about DA3. What I am more concerned about is that DA3 will contradict things in DAO and DA2. Not to mention that I think the game play will suck.
@188.8.131.52. You said "Since EA got involved the only thing they’ve done consistently well is write and develop characters.". I would respectfully disagree since I thought the characters in DA2 were very bland and two dimensional.--CouslandRogue (talk) 06:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
First, I question the existence of two dozen "mage VS templar" thread.
Second, as I stated in the other thread, my first mindset in Thedas is "I am a Grey Warden". As the result, I don't give a toss about mages or templars (and my default Warden is a Circle Mage. Oh well). This conflict involves a very small population, while the Blight (and other catastrophes that the Maker/dev team seems to think appropriate to rain down on poor Thedosians) involves pretty much everybody. As a Warden, it'd be nice if the mages and the templars could give Thedas back after they've finished blowing each other into bits and demanding privileges while they do it. - 08:38, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
I think that it is less mages vs templers and more mages vs the chantry since the templers are just chantry soldiers and must obey the Divine. I doubt that the Divine would allow any more rogue templer leaders like Meredith and would use the seekers to make sure they don't act without her authority.
I think in order to be free the mages would need to overthrow the chantry as the very religion states what must be done with mages. The Divine herself has followers in all nations except Tevinter and the nations following the Qun. If Tervinter can strike a blow against the Qunari to get them off their back, they might even throw their might behind the mages and a 'world war' may begin.
- Actually the Templars and the Seekers (or at least large factions of them) are no longer bound to the Chantry. They thought (correctly) that the Divine was trying to be nicer to the Mages and decided to take their ball and go home. Which in this case means their large armed and militant army of fanatics and just start roaming Thedas answering to nobody. Which, come to think of it, is incredibly stupid. The Divine should have denounced them and called on the nations of Thedas to slap them down. The particularly religious among the leaders of Thedas move to serve the Chantry, and the more secularly minded leaders would be interested in helping because it would both weaken the Chantry, and increase their own influence. Plus, nobody like random armies wondering across their countries. Went on a bit of tangent there, didn't I?--Liam Sionnach (talk) 16:14, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
As others have mentioned, the Mage-Templar nonsense makes a good backdrop to a story but I feel it lacks the power to be the main focus. Hopefully Bioware give us the option of not getting involved (or if we must, leaving it in the background) - I'd really like my character to reflect my own disgust at both sides and let the fools kill each other....actually, that'd be a faction worth supporting - a coalition of Mages and Templars who are sick of the idiotic violence and working together against both of the main parties to end the war. Alternately, there'd be a fair bit of coin to be made amidst the chaos for one who knew how. Hell, even delving into the Chantry’s role (and increasing irrelevance) during the mess could make for a good plot thread. Basically, focusing on anything BUT Mages vs. Templars during the war would provide a good story. --Duranic (talk) 13:48, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
- re:"a coalition of Mages and Templars who are sick of the idiotic violence and working together against both of the main parties to end the war." I really like that idea Ser Duranic, I think that it could have a lot of potential to make it more interesting, and give a much needed option not to support either side.
──┤ │ Eganogard │ talk ├── 13:59, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
@CouslandRogue: Were the characters in DA2 really that much worse than the characters in DAO? I don't see that. Let's not let our disappointment with DA2 color everything about it.184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:37, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
- I see your point about not letting my dislike of DA2 color my opinion of the characters. However, I feel that the player is never given a chance to learn about any of the DA2 characters since you can usually only talk to them if they are giving you a quest. As opposed to the characters in DAO who you can talk to at any time.--CouslandRogue (talk) 02:10, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
- to add to this point, I'd say the lack of dialogue between the PC and the party members was mainly because each companion in origins main purpose was to dispense world lore in the form of their own history. E.G. rather then throwing a textbook about Orlais and the life of a bard at the player Leliana tells stories of her own experiences to give the player an understanding without beating them over the head with it.
- By the time DA2 rolled around most players are fairly familiar with the world's lore (when it's not being retconned....looking at you Talus) so there's just not as much to say. While you could argue that their were a few missed opportunities to expand on some of the less detailed sections of Thedas such as Isabella and Rivain we don't really need Sebastian and Anders to waste time explaining what the chantry or circles role in DA is.
- So yeah, companions do say less but I'd argue that because they don't have to dispense lore more then anything else. It'd be interesting to see some of our old companions pop back up in the story but I'd rather them reduced to cameo's at best, their time in the spotlight has passed it's time to introduce us to a new group of friends :)--Tabristhegreat (talk) 02:57, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
- I do not know if the dialogue in DAO was meant to dispense information or not, but some of the companions had interesting stories and backgrounds. For example, Morrigan and Alistair both told the Warden about what their child hoods were like as well as answering questions about Thedas. I don't think it's too much to ask that the companions have a background that is more elaborate than "I was in a Dalish clan" (Merrill) or "I was in Ferelden and came to Kirkwall with Hawke"(Aveline). It also annoyed me that you can not talk to your party members anywhere but their bases. --CouslandRogue (talk) 03:15, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's gonna' have to be, even though I really didn't want it to be, even in DA2. I preferred the storyline that was the Fereldan Civil War over the Blight, and I was hoping we'd've been seeing more of the former storyline types than the latter. DA2 (IMO) would have been better off if the main squeeze had been Chantry vs. Qunari - that had potential seeing as it was 2 religious entities clashing, and it could have had quite a few people re-thinking their views on both of them. (Which, I think that's what it was supposed to be until the Mages vs. Templar storyline was tacked on at the last hour and declared the primary story). I personally don't see it going beyond DA3, though. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if DA3 takes place AFTER the Mage-Templar War, or just the conclusion of it. DAWUSS (talk) 03:32, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
I like the Mage Vs Templar story addition but its not going to be the main thing for long. Dragon Age is a time of conflict, many thing are going to happen in the future.--Guerrilla S019 (talk) 04:05, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
I find that conflict potentially very interesting and definitely more interesting than Gray Wardens. Hey look, a secret organization of grim badasses who are devoted to (grimly and badassfully) defend the world against the Horde no matter what cost, also has secret and terrible rite of passage that grants its members superpowers, but has consequences, now where have I seen that before? Oh, right - everywhere. Now, while mages vs templars by itself isn't that interesting, its implications are. Major players on Thedas are Orlais, main export of which is Andrastianism and templars, and Tevinter, the magocracy. Mages defying the Chantry tips the balance something serious - Orlais most likely will have to postpone any expansion plans, rebellions in occupied territories also likely, especially where Andrastianism snuffed out previous religion. Tevinter will not openly support rogue mages, but surely use the situation somehow. Lets not forget the Qunari who are clearly up to something no good and is already at war with Tevinter, and it seems that the Dalish are getting ready for something. Such a fertile soil for delightful schemes, devious intrigues and decadent plots...having said that - no, I don't want Bioware tackle this conflict. It would've been hard for them to pull it off even before EA and it's plain impossible now with their new corporate culture. Dorquemada (talk) 12:30, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
It will be worth it if they do it right. I think the mage/templar war will be the main focus to DA3 and the PC will resolve this conflict with the help of the Seeker's or something along those lines. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 01:06, August 7, 2012 (UTC)Darkside
- It was the head of the Seekers that lead the Templars in breaking with the Chantry. Since Cassandra is around, I guess some of them are still loyal, but if the Seekers are around in DA3 I for one will be suspicious of them.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 05:49, August 7, 2012 (UTC)
Frankly I'm hopeful that the Mage-Templar War will shape up into something that foreshadows a yet greater overall threat, one might call it a trigger. I don't want to see another Blight right now, it was a good opening to the game series, sure, but it would be incongruous with the gaming lore since all previous Blights were a few hundred years apart. Also a Qunari invasion would be too much like Act II of DA2. Incidentally I loved that game.
The Mage-Templar War could shape into something a great deal less mundane than simply mages and sympathetic templars vs. templars. With the circles of Thedas and the Templar order no longer subject to the whims of the Chantry, this could become an issue of, for lack of a better term, national security for many nations. What if the Tevinter Imperium saw this as a chance to recruit an army of mages to its cause by supporting one of the larger mage factions? What if, without the support of the Templars now, the Divine were to declare an Exhalted March and rally the other nations to sort this problem out? There are a lot of ways this could go. It'd be a mark of skill to actually cock it up.
I'm seeing a relatively large number of posts that seem to say DA2 was a mage-templar war. That wasn't a war....at all.... it was the spark that started the war. Tony, you're idea of "recruiting cities? elfs, golems? maybe spirits" sounds like an origin clone. I loved Origins, it took its place in my mind as my ALL time favorite RPG, however we dont need a clone. I for one would hate to see DA3 simply become origins 2.0. Perhaps some are overlooking the idea that the Mage templar war isnt JUST about the mages not liking templars. This is a dangerous precedent... The chantry is a powerful force that is governed by themselves. King Alister (if you chose that path) when showing up in DA2 mentions he doesnt control the circle and can only assist mages outside the circle. Mages want to be free, but we've seen how that can turn out, as with the case of Tevinter. Templars are defying their order, perhaps even losing faith. There could be an entire religion shift. With the chantry in its current state, Orlais having a civil war, it could leave them open for someone such as the Qunari or Tevinter themselves to swoop in and cease power. In short though, Origins had a lot of good choices because ( Or at least I felt) the choices were moral choices. I know they go for the whole "gray area, moral ambiguity" thing... But things like The golems, Do you sacrifice lives for power? or the "greater good"? in that respect what does a life mean to you? In the case with the elves, is Zathrien's vengeance, after soooooo many years justified? Do the lives of the curse hold meaning, or do they truly deserve to suffer? The mage templar war can tap into those same questions. Is a Mage's life worth the same as any other? shouldnt they be treated equal? But what of the blood mages? and the stupid mages who become Abominations? they could be worse then a blight itself. What if your family has a mage in it? like in the case with Bethany. My roommate was a hardcore, Sword & Board Warrior, through and through, in all RPGs, (and even in things like D&D) It wasnt until he played DA2 that we actually felt it was necessary to stand up for mages because of the party banter between Bethany and other characters. IMO I wouldn't want any other story. ~PS~ As always GabrielleduVent, you made my favorite post!
I think Mages vs. Templars is crucial. We MUST see it in DA3. We need the option of being able to choose a side, and my first character would choose the mages. But I think the story is just going to be an intro into something much greater that the war will directly affect. Believe it! (talk) 18:51, August 8, 2012 (UTC)
The war will definitely be a big presence in DAIII. While whatever world changing disaster Flemeth is starting may likely be the biggest point in the story, the MagesvsTemplars war will probably take the prominent notice at the start of the game, perhaps greatly if Origin Stories come back. It could influence companion and NPC interactions, I liked how in origins, people would treat my character differently depending on their origin (Shianni treating the city elf warden more kindly then a human warden, or a mage being able to avoid conflicts just by telling them thye can destroy them with magic) these made it seem like my character had a defined presence in the story.It would especially matter if there is an apostate mage or templar recruit origin, How you stand on the war would definitely matter if your character need help from the mage and they happened to be a former templar and vice versa for the mages. --WhyNot8322 (talk) 17:30, August 12, 2012 (UTC)WhyNot8322