So, here's what I was wondering about. In Howe's estate in Denerim, once you save Riordan, you can talk to him a bit, and it's possible to ask him specifically if it would be possible for him to make new wardens. His reply is that making a new warden doesn't only require darkspawn blood, but archdemon blood as well, and that the supply of the latter which was kept in a storage was emptied, and thus that it wouldn't be possible for him to make new wardens. Later on, once he's standing in Arl Eamon's estate, you can talk to him, and if you ask the same question again, he will reply in the same exact fashion. If you ask him for the key and go to the storage unit yourself, you can confirm that there isn't any archdemon blood.

Which leads to the question of how the hell can he turn Loghain into a warden, when he clearly stated that doing so to anyone wouldn't be possible? (And I don't think that something like "he was carrying a vial of archdemon blood in his pocket" would be a good reply. Especially considering that he was in his underwear in a prison cell and that the only thing that was previously in his possession that we can find are Grey Warden documents, and no vial accompanying them.) TheodoricEichen (talk) 07:10, April 16, 2012 (UTC)TheodoricEichen

Well... I dunno if this can be considered a good enough sorta response, but he did mention Loghain may have hidden it, or destroyed it. How Riordan knew for certain it was moved and not just gone for good is a bit of a mystery, but thats the only conclusion I can come up with. Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 09:23, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

That...is a very good point. Especially considering the fact that Loghain wanted to wipe out the Wardens in Ferelden. If that's what he wanted to do and then got his hands on their blood supply, it's highly likely that he would've destroyed it, rather than simply confiscated it.

Which means...plothole! Nilfalasiel (talk) 09:38, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I always wondered about that, and convinced myself that since Riordan is a rogue, he must have smuggled it in up some orifice (yeah, you know what I mean). I also considered the possibility of the Orlesians having a vial with them at the border, and they actually waited for Loghain to do the ritual.

But don't Alistair and the Warden have some concoction sample around their necks from their Joining (and maybe Riordan too)? Maybe they used that... although how they would have calculated the exact amount of herbs, darkspawn blood, and lyrium in those samples is beyond me. - 12:14, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I always thought the Warden's Oath contained blood of those that didn't survive the Joining. Son Goharotto (talk) 12:58, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't Riordan a sneaky thief type just like Duncan? Then he probably just sneaked upon ol' Urthemiel's toe with a syringe. Dorquemada (talk) 12:46, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

If the Orlesians did provide the blood, why didn't they deliver it themselves and stay for the battle? And if they did provide the blood but were for whatever reason unable to cross the border, why didn't they provide more so that more warriors could be initiated?

If the Warden or Alistar provided the blood from their sample they kept from their joining, why would "waste" it on Loghain? Why not use it to initiate some other warrior/general/whatever? someone who didn't commit regicide and sell elves into slavery to fund a civil war. ````(Kaiser Apple)

I think that last point is up to personal opinion, because if the Warden wants Loghain as a grey warden, then it's because the Warden wants Loghain as a grey warden, and not some other random warrior/general/whatever. DeltaEcho (talk) 15:17, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I thought it didn't have to be Archdemon blood, you could use other types of powerful darkspawn blood (eg the Broodmother's) and use magic on it to make it work? If so, I'd assume that's what they did. Eggy2504 (talk) 16:00, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think it specifically has to be Archdemon blood. It allows Wardens to resist the Taint, at least for a while. Anything less leads to madness and corruption in short order. Son Goharotto (talk) 18:43, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. He specifically states Archdemon blood. (Kind of makes you wonder how the first wardens came to be, how they could think that drinking that big, seemingly immortal dragon's blood could be a good thing, but there you have it.) It's not said anywhere that the blood of any other sufficiently powerful darkspawn could be a substitute, else the wardens would also collect blood from every vanguard, ogres and emissaries. TheodoricEichen (talk) 19:29, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

"Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency to have an immediate effect, rather than slowly corrupt the consumer into a ghoul. While archdemon blood is typically used, blood of other darkspawn creatures can also be magically treated to make it function in the ritual. However, the average darkspawn doesn't have enough of the corruption within it for this to work." This is directly quoted from the pages of this Wiki, so I would assume that it is possible. Eggy2504 (talk) 19:35, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Huh. Interesting. I might have been wrong, then. Could you post a link please? I'd like to check their sources for that quote (if any). TheodoricEichen (talk) 19:47, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't require a large amount of fudging to account for. Riordan had a lot of papers that were confiscated, when he was captured. Such papers would have been housed with Loghain's earlier research into Grey Wardens. When Riordan's papers were recovered, the other items would have been found.

Anora knows intimate details about the Joining Ritual. Her source of knowledge would have been Loghain. Loghain was in close contact with Duncan for extended periods, during the time of King Maric. Duncan wasn't quite as circumspect then, as he was at Ostagar (and, even then, Loghain punked him fairly easily). Злой "futonrevolution" мальчик (talk) 20:14, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Uhh... no, that's the thing. Loghain destroyed all of the Grey Wardens' reserves in Ferelden, or hid them, or something. If he had intimate knowledge of how the joining was done (which I actually strongly doubt, since Duncan says that the specifics of the joining are hidden from all not of the order, and that those who do not complete the joining but who know the specifics must die (hence Jory's death)), then it just made his business of destroying the reserves that more efficient. Yes, Riordan's stuff was confiscated when he was captured, but that was after he checked the Ferelden reserves, and found them empty (hence the fact that he knew about it even while emprisoned), which is why he specifically says that he cannot make anyone else become a warden. So Loghain joining really is a huge plothole.

EDIT: The most that I could expect Loghain to know is that Wardens take the taint within themselves and somehow master it, but I don't know how he could know anything more. If he found a reserve of blood lying around, would he be able to tell it apart from normal blood, or from other darkspawn blood? TheodoricEichen (talk) 21:49, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well darkspawn blood is black, so yes to the first. No idea if he could tell archdemon blood apart. ----Isolationistmagi 22:52, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

The question is, since Anora knows about the Joining, then who did she learn it from, if not from Loghain? Then again, if memory serves, all she mentions is that it could be fatal. Maybe she doesn't know the details (ie. that blood is involved)?

That aside, I don't see why Loghain would keep anything he found in the Grey Warden's storehouse, if his goal is to eradicate them. Why keep anything that would allow any survivors to recover, or anything Wardens from another country could use? Moreover, if he doesn't know the specifics of the Joining, finding blood might make him think about blood magic. He's already consorting with known blood mages (Jowan), but actually having blood - and, what's more, darkspawn blood - in his possession is dangerously incriminating evidence. Why would he risk that?

And even assuming he did, how would Riordan know for sure that Loghain had some leftover blood so soon after being released from prison? After all, he wouldn't be offering a Joining if he didn't know that it was possible. I find this is especially awkward coming after his repeated mentions that he can't make new Wardens. Surely, the Warden should've at least had a dialogue option asking him where he got the blood. Nilfalasiel (talk) 08:39, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well I think we can all agree that this is a plot hole, and again... I dont think this really solves anything, but, later on Riordan is the one who tells you the location of the hidden stash in the warehouse. Since that room was left untouched, obviously filled with armor and Duncan's shield and what-not perhaps some blood may have been in there too? Warden Mage: Ferris (talk) 09:41, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, it hasn't been left untouched. That's where Riordan expected to find the blood in the first place, and he tells you something related to not being any blood or something left there as he gives you the key. (Something about there only being Grey Warden equipment left, and that we can take anything that we think we might need, don't quite remember the specifics.) So yeah, plot hole then. TheodoricEichen (talk) 11:39, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

To Theodoric, this is the source: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/576559 . It's from the forums, and David Gaider specifically says any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. :) Therefore, I'd assume that the Warden (if a mage), Morrigan, Wynne and any other mages still alive use their magic to enchant it correctly. Eggy2504 (talk) 16:19, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Riordan probably used the blood from his Warden's Oath. Each one contains the blood consumed in that Warden's Joining. If it was confiscated, I doubt the guards knew what it was. They probably just thought it was an ordinary pendant. Either this, or Riordan searched the repository again and found a secret passage or compartment that he didn't notice before. Or, like others mentioned, they got normal darkspawn blood and enhanced it. Seems like that would take too long though. Loghain's Joining seemed to happen quickly after the Landsmeet, so I would go with one of the first two options. As for why Riordan says that, he either forgot about his Warden's Oath holding the blood he needed, or the second option, which is self-explanatory. As for how Anora knew about the Joining, I think she figured this out from Cailin rather than Loghain. The documents Riordan had were encrypted, so Loghain couldn't have figured it out. More than likely, Cailin knew of it as he did most of the Warden legends, and Anora either read Cailin's things or pieced it together herself based on what Cailin has said about the Wardens over the years. Believe it! (talk) 16:54, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

It's also possible that Soldier's Peak has REALLY old archdemon blood... but that's a DLC, so I'm not sure how that works out. Or perhaps Loghain said "SURPRISE! I actually kept it around. Thought it might flavour my mulled wine".

I still think my theory of Alistair and Warden's amulets probably is the least unbelievable. - 01:24, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Although it would be way too little blood and it's never heard of, I agree that that's the only reasonable explanation. TheodoricEichen (talk) 03:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Or we could just accept the plot hole because Loghain becoming a Warden is non-canon? If Alistair is king, there's no way he'd let Loghain live. Son Goharotto (talk) 03:34, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but remember, Gaider said all player choices are canons. I think the only non-canons are mods and my very bizarre bug in which my elven mage Warden married a warden Alistair who somehow stole the throne from Anora... all while my Warden wasn't looking. She looked utterly baffled when Alistair showed up in Awakening and said "how's it goin' babe? Wanna come back home and lurve me?". Amazingly, the bug carried over into DA2, and the "Hero of Ferelden" codex states that she is the queen of Ferelden who grew up in Kinloch Hold. I can't wait to see Meredith spitting fire at Alistair in Act 3. - 03:38, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

My favorite ending is Hardened Alistar Marries Anora, with Loghain as the new warden companion, my life is precious warden. I'm about to replay the ending of Dragon Age again in a couple of days, I don't remember him saying that there is no blood...hmmm...to be continued.Sir Fritz (talk) 04:18, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Why do you even speculate on this, it is stated in the game. To become a Gray warden you need not only darkspawn blood, but the blood of an arch demon. There were some in the Denerim compound but Loghain took it out. Onces things are settled in the Landsmeet chamber with Loghain but before he can be executed, Riordan interups because he has found the vial of arch demon blood that Loghain took. He had it in the Royal palace where the Landsmeet chamber is. With the palace under Gray warden control it is again possible for them to organize a joining. That's why he interrupts because Riodan wants as many Gray wardens as possible.-rphb- (talk) 20:41, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

... Speculation much? It is never stated in the game what Loghain did with the archdemon blood; it is stated that the blood was either destroyed or taken. All we know for certain is that at that point in the plot, it's not viable. Nothing more, nothing less. We never know whether Riordan found the archdemon blood. We do not see he is carrying a big flask of blood. So what you are saying is speculation.

Gaider also stated that while archdemon blood is much preferred, it is not necessary. The reason why archdemon blood is needed is to deliver a concentrated amount of taint in one go, as opposed to small doses time and time again which makes a ghoul. If a darkspawn blood is magically treated, then it can be used in lieu of archdemon blood (there is a link in the aforementioned post). - 20:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

@- It can't be from the Warden's Oath from the customizable character or Alistair. My Cousland character destroyed his Warden's Oath right after he got it, and I doubt Alistair would let his go for the sake of making Loghain a Warden. Believe it! (talk) 19:17, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

^ Except everybody's Warden is different. All my Wardens kept their Warden's Oath, for instance, to remind themselves of what they'd gone through. However, there's no way in hell that Alistair would donate his for the sake of making Loghain a Warden. Nilfalasiel (talk) 09:24, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but what I'm saying is that it couldn't have come from the Warden or Alistair because in a scenario where the Warden's amulet is destoryed or sold away, Riordan still finds some blood that allows for Loghain's Joining. Therefore that must be the source in every scenario. Believe it! (talk) 17:36, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

It was a logical deduction. Riordan said that the viel was either destroyed or taken, then when we meat him in the palace (the most logical place to take the viel) he tells you that there is another way. We know he was looking for it, why else would he know that it was not in the compound-rphb- (talk) 11:06, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

But that secret cache in Denerim wasn't destroyed. There was still a bunch of stuff in there, including Duncan's shield. There was a bookcase in front of it, which suggests Loghain's men never found it. Believe it! (talk) 17:36, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. Riordan says that this is where he expected to find Ferelden's reserve of Archdemon blood, but that it wasn't there. What was left in the cache was simply things that Loghain's men didn't care for. TheodoricEichen (talk) 18:27, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

But I don't think Loghain's men found that part of the cache. The part that they found and that Riordan was talking about may have been right outside of that. In front of the bookcase. Maybe there was more in the room behind the bookcase which Loghain's men never found and Riordan didn't know about until he looked a second time. Ask yourself, why would Loghain's men put the bookcase back in place after being in that room? It would make no sense. And why not take Duncan's shield if they had in fact raided that part of the cache? Believe it! (talk) 18:12, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Duncan might have used all the archdemon blood in the Warden's joining and was waiting on the Orliasan wardens to bring him more that's could be why there is none in the warden cache.CrowInvictus (talk) 00:23, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Loghain gave it to Caladrius to figure out what it was, and you took it back when you killed or made a deal with him.Yes, I know it's contrived but it's the only thing I can think of at the moment.Oso27us (talk) 22:54, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Don't bring a tevinter slave trader into this, the most logical explenation was that L. took it to the palace and left what he considered irrelevant, or that it had always been at the palace. Think about it, why hide something so critical behind a bookcase. The Palace is the most secure place in all of Ferelden and even the mighty Warden wasn't able to get to it, before he/she was invited due to the landsmeet.-rphb- (talk) 23:13, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

It's elementary, my dear Watson. If making a Warden's Oath pendant is traditional, then every Warden has one, including Riordan. So he could have used his own. Son Goharotto (talk) 00:48, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

As previously stated, you seem to forget the part that in a Warden's Oath, there's only a drop or two of the blood from the joining, and that to become a warden, one has to drink from a full chalice. You even see Loghain drinking deeply from it, if I'm not mistaken. That stuff can't have come from a little pendant. So no; it seems that the only plausible answer would be that Loghain did not, in fact, destroy the reserve of Archdemon blood, simply confiscated it, and that once it was determined in the Landsmeet that he would be made into a warden, he simply told Riordan where to find it. If that's not the explanation, then I really think that this is just a major plothole. TheodoricEichen (talk) 04:51, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

No, Riordan says that aside from darkspawn blood a drop of archdemon blood is also needed (just a drop, not a gulp). Since every Warden's Oath holds at least one drop of Joining blood, which had been exposed to one drop of archdemon blood, then that means each Warden's Oath can be used to give the darkspawn blood that necessary drop of archdemon blood. I doubt Riordan would have suggested making Loghain a Warden unless he already had the archdemon blood he needed, either from the container he was looking for or from his own Warden's Oath. Believe it! (talk) 18:12, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The problem of course is that recycling the blood drop causes its concentration in the mixture to go down with each successive use, causing the potency of the drop to decline with each successive use, even recycling it once might cause the concentration of Archdemon blood to be too low to be workable. ----Isolationistmagi 18:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Or does it? Believe it! (talk) 21:04, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it does. And as I previously stated, there's only one friggin drop or two of the joining blood in a Warden's Oath; no WAY is that enough to make someone become a Warden. They drink a whole goblet of it, normally! Or at least, the content of a full vial per Warden. (If I remember well, that's what you fill up with Darkspawn blood back in the Korcari Wilds.) So no, a diluted amount of Archdemon blood wouldn't be enough, simply because the content of a Warden's Oath is so very small; it's not enough blood to qualify for a joining. And no way would Riordan or the Warden cheapen out, either; the Warden kind of wants Loghain dead, and only agreed to spare him if he underwent the joining and became a warden himself. So in conclusion, na, Riordan's Warden's Oath (or even the combination of the Warden's and Riordan's) is not the answer. TheodoricEichen (talk) 21:17, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

But one drop wouldn't be enough in the case of the Joining then either. I think the fact that it is one drop indicates that the drop does not change the darkspawn blood biologically, rather it enhances its corrupting power magically. So any contact with the archdemon blood will cause it to be effective enough to create a Grey Warden (or kill the person outright). Therefore the Warden's Oaths hold blood that is maxed out in corruption and thus work the same. Believe it! (talk) 21:34, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Suppose a vial normally holds 200ml (it might normally hold more), and that a drop of Archdemon blood is 4ml (which is probably more than it actually is). That would mean that to become a warden, you consume 204ml of blood, 1.96% of the blood you'd consume would be Archdemon blood. It would NEED to be at LEAST that much Archdemon blood to have an impact, otherwise more would be given. (The Joining is more a thing of quantities than proportions, I think. Both for "normal" Darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood.) Assuming that there's about 5ml of blood in a Warden's Oath (-1 ml because of what would stick to the edges and not come out when extracted, -1 because Riordan has been in the Wardens as long as Duncan (and since both Riordan and Duncan were beginning to think that the time for them to leave for their Callings was coming, I'm assuming that they were wardens for at least 20 years, probably more like 25, I'm assuming that it might have somewhat dried out or lost some of its potency)). That would leave us with a total of 3ml of blood left, 0.0588ml of which would be Archdemon blood. Not even the tenth of a milileter. So, no; if that's how the Joining happened, I'm deeply disappointed in Bioware. TheodoricEichen (talk) 21:43, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well, first off you're forgetting that there are three vials of darkspawn blood that are combined first and then the one drop goes to all three. Meaning 4ml to 600ml, or 201.34 ml of blood per Warden. That is about 0.66% archdemon blood. According to Gaider, the blood works on corruption properties, and normal darkspawn blood can be magically enhanced. So that's why I think the one drop is more of a magical corruption enhancement rather than a biological one. Plus, like I said, Riordan may have only checked the first room of the cache, not the hidden room behind the bookcase. Believe it! (talk) 22:13, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

This is not simply fluid dynamics we're talking about. If the Taint is not a strictly magical property, then as a biological one, it would be far more virulent than anything known to modern science. It can spread from blighted land to animals to people. If the Messenger is any indication, just being around a Darkspawn briefly can cause Blight sickness.

Put a drop of HIV+ blood in a goblet of fresh, healthy blood. The whole goblet is now HIV+. There is no five-second-rule when it comes to a virus. There is no separating it out.

I imagine this is much the same with the Archdemon's corruption and that the whole point of diluting it in Darkspawn blood is to make it weak enough to overcome. But given enough time, the corruption will become omnipresent, in the same way that the Archdemon's spirit can inhabit and empower any other Darkspawn. So no matter how small a sample of that mixture you take, it will always contain the corruption in its complete state. One drop from a Warden's Oath is all you'd need because that drop contains the Archdemon corruption, period. Son Goharotto (talk) 22:59, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

If that were all that was needed, what would they ever need Archdemon blood for? Archdemon blood is known to be used in every joining ritual unless darkspawn blood has been magically enhanced. There is not one incident in the entire lore of the entire franchise, nor a statement from any of the devs, that indicates that the blood from the pendant has ever been used in the place of the blood of an archdemon, or that it is even possible. One can conclude from this that the pendant blood has never replaced archdemon blood for a very clear and very simple reason, it doesn't work. ----Isolationistmagi 03:39, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well the primary purpose of the Warden's Oath is to remember your Joining and those who went through it with you. So while WO blood can be used to create another Joining, it is better to hang on to it (in the eyes of the Wardens) and just use the archdemon blood. The WO holds Joining blood, and that has the archdemon's corruption in it. Therefore it is logical that it would work in corrupting a goblet of darkspawn blood and provide for another Joining. Believe it! (talk) 19:10, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

But why would Riordan not check the hidden room? I really doubt the important stuff in the cache was simply stored in the warehouse. It's called a cache for a reason, so it makes sense that the real valuables would be hidden (ie. situated in the second room). I find it very unlikely that Riordan simply didn't know about the second room. And if he did know about it, he wouldn't be so adamant about the fact that there was no blood there at all if he hadn't thoroughly searched it. And even presuming he was caught before he managed to check the second room, he might have answered "I didn't find any blood, but I didn't have time to search everything", rather than assert that there was no blood there. Nilfalasiel (talk) 06:47, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Riordan may have thought the room linked to the main warehouse was the second room. Then before the Landsmeet he went back to the warehouse to check again, and that is when he found the hidden room either from searching more carefully or because the Warden found and opened it. Believe it! (talk) 15:59, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

What I mean is that a cache, by definition, is something hidden. The main room of the warehouse and the smaller room before the bookcase are wide open for anyone to see, they're not hidden at all. If Riordan knew the existence of the cache, I doubt he'd have left his search at just those two rooms. They're simply not fitting places to store anything of value. Also, I find it very strange that a senior Warden like Riordan wouldn't a) know exactly where the cache is located or b) search for it very thoroughly if he knew it was supposed to be there. Nilfalasiel (talk) 17:13, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

The warehouse itself would qualify as a cache, but the second room would as well. That room is open when WE find it, but that was AFTER Loghain's men had already raided it. So maybe they were the ones to open it up. His men may have opened that room up and just assumed it was the only hidden room. Same with Riordan. He was stationed in Orlais, so he would have only known of the Denerim cache, not the specifics of it. He probably thought that second room was the true cache. And I'm sure Riordan did think it was supposed to be there, but he also knew that Loghain's men had raided it, and so he thought Loghain took it. Believe it! (talk) 19:00, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

When Riordin explained that the storage place with the archdemon blood in it was empty, he then said Loghain either destroyed it or hid it, I can't imagine Loghain would know that the Archdemon blood was needed for the ritual, so he wouldn't really feel the need to destroy it, he wouldn't know what it was for, to be honest, I doubt there was a large vial saying "WARNING: Archdemon blood, don't touch". Welshman15 (talk) 09:07, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

A theory to explain why Loghain, if he really did find the Archdemon blood, did not destory the blood is maybe that was sealed in a magical chest like the one Duncan said held the treaties in the Wilds. So while Loghain took the chest, he could not open it. Then Riordan snuck into Loghain's stronghold and was able to open the chest to recover the blood. Believe it! (talk) 19:00, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

This is actually the most credible explanation I've heard until now. (Although I tend to think that after being spared in the Landsmeet on the condition that Loghain become a warden, Loghain would probably simply show Riordan where it is; no need for all that sneaking around.)

It wouldn't surprise me to find out if you mix some average darkspawn taint in with some pure Grey Warden blood you get the equivalent of bio-diesel, you know just bio-diesel that makes you a badass. 98.233.217.33 (talk) 11:37, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think the Archdemon blood is missing from the storage because Duncan took it to do the joining at Ostagar. He is killed at Ostagar and unable to return it. Perhaps Riordan went back there and found it.--OniWade (talk) 13:57, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

If I remember well, he does go back in the area, but only after the Landsmeet. (That's when he senses that the Archdemon is part of the horde, and that they're heading towards Denerim. But even at that point, I don't think he goes as far as Ostagar; doesn't need to. And the game doesn't really show it, but it takes days/weeks to travel from Ostagar to Denerim. He wouldn't have been able to do so before the Landsmeet.)

No, the most credible explanation really is that Loghain confiscated it, didn't destroy it, and gave it back to Riordan after it was decided that he would attempt the Joining as the condition to him being spared. TheodoricEichen (talk) 21:36, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

First forum post on a wiki so I hope I don't break anything. The big problem with Loghain giving back the blood after the Landsmeet is that then Riodan's intervention doesn't make much sense. How would he know that the blood still exists? It would be stupid to run in there when the Warden is about to lop Loghain's head off only to find out that the blood is really gone. If my Warden would have had the opportunity to join someone else he would have asked Sten, Oghren or Wynne. All people that are competent, dedicated and loyal, things that can't be said about Loghain. To be honest my Dalish Warden had a few problems with honesty in the order. First Duncan tells him that there is no way to find Tamlen alive. Then he meets Tamlen again as a ghoul that is still resisting the old god's call months after the incident with the Eluvian. He tells the Dalish Warden that the only cure for the Darkspawn plague is joining the Grey Wardens. In Ostagar you meet a Kennel master who can cure Mabari hounds who have it. Then Riordan claims that he can't induct new Wardens, only to change that when you can finally make Loghain pay....--Navarion (talk) 22:43, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, you're exactly right. Those are exactly the kind of inconsistencies that led me to initially ask this question, because I couldn't think of a valid explanation of how this whole scene could have occurred. After many theories (many of which made little sense), what I wrote above really stood out as the most rational one that was available. All in all, I think that it was a plothole on their part, but it's nice to know that (visibly, with a lot of effort), it could actually make sense if you allowed things to be stretched out a bit. As for the point you raised, of Riordan not knowing that Loghain hadn't destroyed it; it's a valid question, but then again, Riordan never guaranteed that Loghain would be able to go through the Joining before the battle against the Archdemon. It's possible that they could have spared his life temporarily, let him fight like any other soldier against the Darkspawn, and once things had calmed down, he could have been brought back to Orlais or wherever, to then undergo the joining, as he swore he would. But anyways. Glad to know that I wasn't the only one who was really bothered by this whole situation. =p TheodoricEichen (talk) 23:53, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Because it wasn't in his pocket, it was in his butt. Super Warden (talk)