Ok ok i know people have been discussing this and i posted this before but i want to go into detail. Ok now flemeth is very powerful as we all know but my theory is she is so how the maker now people will be like no no no this is wrong well this is a theory and they are ment to be wrong. now the maker created the fade first and the spirits were his first children then he created thedas and created all the life there. well i was thinking and thinking and it hit me the Elven mirrors were portals has morigan says takes you to a place where its not the fade but a place between fade and thedas this is where it hit me. the tevinter mages had captured alot of these mirrors when they were trying to take the world and it was these mages that brought the darkspawn. so i was thinking this other world is the goldencity. now the tevinters worshiped the old gods my thought is that the old gods were the hands of the maker that betrayed the maker after they got to thedas and they were the ones who told the mages how to get to the golden city to maybe kill the maker so they would be free well this back fired and cause the mages to turn to darkspawn and each of the old gods were corrupted along with them. now at this point i think the maker would be mad at the fact that his/ her creations were turning on him/her and decided to take things into their hands and went to thedas. now once on thedas the maker takes the form of a woman to weave his way into mens hearts which became flemeth. now flemeth states "bodies are a limiting thing" and kinda hints to the fact that there is more then one "flemeth" out in thedas. now in the real world my thoughts is that our god is basicly a spirit who is everywhere why cant the maker in dragon age do that. now the dragon form for the old gods could be what the makers true form is or what ever inhabits the golden city (which is why Flemeth can turn into a dragon). now i know that people might not agree but this is a theory and they are ment to be there to challange. but please just leave your comments on the theory add to it if you want. Morens9 (talk) 18:38, August 27, 2012 (UTC) Morens9 august 27 2012
I've always seen Flemeth as reincarnation of one of Old Gods (Toth maybe). If you talk to Morrigan prior to dark ritual, she claims that ritual is older than the Circle magic and that Flemeth was the one who told Morrigan about it. So how did Flemeth know the ritual would work unless it had already been successfully performed before? And the result was another child with the soul of Old God, ie. Flemeth? What if the ritual is the only way for old gods to free themselves from their underground prison?--18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:26, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
I've always assumed Flemeth was Fen'Harel. Shapeshifting was implied to be one of the magic arts that only a few Dalish Keepers remembered. She also seemed to know a lot more about the Dalish than she let on, given that Morrigan was able to translate ancient elvish script on her own, and bring an Eluvian back to full strength in less than a month (something Merrill never managed to accomplish in seven years of work), and the fact that she was revived by an Elven prayer on an Elven alter on a burial ground for the ancient elves of Arlathan. Given that Flemeth taught Morrigan practically everything she knows, I suspect that Flemeth knows more elven lore than the Dalish do. Also, Fen'Harel's greatest act was betraying and imprisoning all of the other Elven gods. Flemeth's whole life is based around cunning schemes within schemes (Like giving Hawke a way to bring her back from the dead should the Warden decide to kill her), betrayal (given how she extends her mortal life by body-jacking her daughters), and trickery (she seduces men and then kills them when they are done). In addition, Fen'Harel was stated to be "not of the Creators or the Forgotten Ones." It isn't too much of a stretch to assume that his actions against the elven pantheon was just as much self interest as it was spite against the elves. And how do Flemeth and Morrigan treat anyone who isn't part of their plans? With disdain and spite. Will McFadden (talk) 22:58, August 28, 2012 (UTC)
I figured that Flemeth was Andraste. There are parallels between Andraste's betrayal by Maferath and Osen selling his wife for wealth and power (or Conobar deceiving her to return to him only to kill Osen and imprison her, whichever version you believe), only to be reneged in the end. Also, the elements of wrath (the Maker or the demon, both are Fade beings), slaughter, and perhaps fire (I imagine the abomination burned a great deal of Conobar's castle), so they may very well be the same story, simply told as two separate versions by Flemeth herself. Andraste was also apparently a very powerful mage, not a simple singing Alamarri girl. Soul transfer is very possible for powerful mages like Corypheus and Flemeth, so perhaps she (Andraste) transferred her soul to escape the fires that claimed her Andraste body (executed in Minrathous, it wouldn't be hard to find another mage girl, perhaps one standing in the mob that burned her), and was content to watch/manipulate society in different forms throughout the ages, watching Orlais and Emperor Drakon capitalize on Andraste's death to dominate half of Thedas, create the Chantry, and perhaps laugh at the irony of it all. She, put to death by mages, now the reason they are all locked up in the Circles and must live off the grid herself. This of course only explains where she may have come from, not what her ultimate goal is, and even there, I admit I'm grasping at straws. RShepard227 (talk)
- ^You and I think the same.--Kiwiih (talk) 09:37, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
- I also subscribe to the Flemeth=Andraste theory. There's also her friendship with the Dalish, and Marethari's comment that the elves owe her "a debt." I'd say that Andraste freeing the elves constitutes a pretty large debt, no? 12:31, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
- I think Andratse theory is incorrect. Andraste fought against Tevinter, Flemeth never did it. Andraste's goal was destruction of the Imperium, Flemeth's actions don't show anything like this. Everyone could befriend with Dalish, if really tried, Gray Wardens did it, but never freed elves. Andraste used elves to have greater military advantage against Tevinter just like Flemeth used elves to ressurect her. In Fade are souls of magisters, if she entered the Fade, she could learn from them about forgotten magic, she had centuries to do it, long enough. 22.214.171.124
- I also subscribe to the Flemeth=Andraste theory. There's also her friendship with the Dalish, and Marethari's comment that the elves owe her "a debt." I'd say that Andraste freeing the elves constitutes a pretty large debt, no? 12:31, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
- I too believe this is a strong possibility. I'd also throw in I think she is possibly, possibly now, the first OGB also. Or at the least maintains a connection of some sort there. Perhaps even as the mother of one who might have been put to death in a fire. But who knows? Certainly not enough info yet to say with any certainty. The Grey Unknown (talk) 14:00, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
I imagine that part of what Morrigan tells us of Flemeth's background is true: she was born in Highever, she was a mage, she was married to Osen and she did suggest to Osen that he make the deal with Conobar. The part where Morrigan tells us that Flemeth found the demon in the Korcari Wilds is where my speculation comes in: I imagine that this demon was a Fade spirit, such as that which protected Wynne, but this one was a spirit of something else. A spirit of Revenge? Or of Balance, maybe? I imagine that it wanted to do something about the presence, whatever it is, that is in the Black City, and that this involves a lot of work and time, and requires the actions of someone in the mortal realm. So this spirit offers Flemeth power in return for her aid in its plan. -Sophia (talk) 12:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
- Revange is an attribute of a demon. Rival Anders told that Justice became Vengeance, he made him a demon, meaning a corrupted spirit. Spirits don't offer power, demons do. Spirits exist also beyond Fade like Lady of the forest. 126.96.36.199
Spirits DO give power. Wynne died as was brought back to life by a spirit of Faith. She then used the spirit's power to revive her son. In the mage origin, you get a staff from a spirit of Valor. As for spirits existing beyond the fade, the Lady of the Forest and the Elder Tree are exceptions rather than the rule. They were in areas where the veil was thin. Will McFadden (talk) 19:54, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
- That's possibly the worst reason ever to believe Flemeth isn't Andraste's "Maker". The chantry, whatever its intentions, is a suspect and corruptible religious organization. A change in little detail like that seems like exactly the kind of thing that could happen even without deliberate intent. I don't think that this is something unique to Chantrists either. If you met any Elven clergy from before their decline I'd be just as skeptical about what they have to say about their gods.
- Since this world does have spirits and god-like entities, it's possible that the Tevinter and Elven gods do have some identity overlap. It's even also possible that not only is Flemeth a being that was once worshipped, that she might also be any number of (non-contemporaneous) historical figures because we don't know how long her body hopping has been going on or if her body transferring ritual actually needs a same-sex, magically attuned target body (if the Dark ritual works off of the same magical principles, it's very likely that it works just fine without that stringent requirement).
- That Flemeth goes so far out of her way to impede the blight is curious and makes me think that she's not related to whatever historical figures actually inspired Andraste's mythology. But that's just me. The actual nature of the blight is still pretty mysterious.WorstClassic (talk) 21:00, September 6, 2012 (UTC)
- Women can marry women, this isn't Star Wars. There's also no offspring arising from the "marriage" that demands any kind of inter-fertility (indeed, spirits probably don't have innate gender. They could just be imitating them like they imitate mortal religious beliefs (Justice mentions that some spirits do worship the maker)). Why believe any of it? Because there's other firsthand accounts of Andraste's revolt from the Tevinters. What we don't have are accounts of the maker from those who aren't already some form of Andrastian (sp?). There are plenty of reasons the early Andrastians or the modern Chantries would want to distort or unintentionally distort the nature of their presumed patron deity. We can't even determine if "the maker" exists, let alone whether or not it exists as described in the Chant. The maker could just as easily be a lesser god or spirit making some kind of a power grab.WorstClassic (talk) 22:19, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
- The Tevinter and Elven gods are nothing but idols. Even if she was worshiped, that just makes her a false god, not The Maker. Also, if her body jump did not require a magically attuned body of the same sex, then why was she grooming Yavana and Morrigan to be possible hosts? Besides, if Flemeth is The Maker then why does she have to body jump at all? Also, why did she have to take precautions in case the Warden chose to kill her? Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
- "Nothing but idols"? I'm talking to a dyed-in-the-wool Andrastian here. Step back from this and think coolly: there's no evidence that the maker, or any other god exists as described except from the (religiously motivated) accounts of their worshipers. To the (conservative) dwarves, all of these gods are equally false. However, there are spirits in Thedas/the Fade with pretty tremendous powers that could (for whatever reason) pose as gods. If the Elves or ancient Tevinters decided to worship these spirits as gods then I think they are gods. If there really is an intelligence that brought forth Thedas then that would be the maker, but we don't really have any objective evidence that the maker exists as described in the chant or that Andraste (if she was consorting with Fade-creatures) was actually consorting with that maker. Of course, we know the truth. Thedas doesn't have just one creator, it was designed by a committee. At any rate, we don't have any reason to believe that a Maker exists or that Andraste's maker existed or exists as described by Andrastians in the Dragon Age. It could just as easily be another "false god" like the Elven or Tevinter gods.
- I'm just saying that we don't really know much about the specifics of Flemeth's magic. In fact, Flemeth's precautions from DA2 are what made me think her body switching powers might have a broader scope than she let on in DA:O. So we can't really discount it as a possibility. Since we can't say for sure that Andraste's god ever existed as described, there's also no reason to believe it possesses omnipotence or omnibenevolence (see dilemma of evil in real Christian theology), or gender or that it even still exists in the fade. If I had to guess, Flemeth probably chooses her successor vessels as female and magically able for a combination of convenience or iterative improvement. By "iterative improvement" I mean that having a magically talented vessel probably makes it easier for Flemeth's powers to grow across her vessel's generations. If Flemeth's "romantic" habits aren't being exaggerated by the stories Morrigan relates, I feel like a male Flemeth keeping a woman for the 9-18 months of pregnancy and weaning to successfully bring a child to term runs harshly counter to what she does to the men she exploits for sex.WorstClassic (talk) 22:19, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I assure you, I AM cool. There is evidence, but there is no undeniable proof, as is the case for our God. The Chantry is correct about the Black City, the Darkspawn, and The Fade. The Temple of Andraste also has the Guardian and the Gauntlet spirits confirming Andraste's life and death. Also, Andraste's ashes work, both as a cure and to disrupt magic (Andraste's Arrows). The Chant of Light itself is also all around good and productive. This is usually a good indicator of what is truth. Of all the other spiritual beliefs in the game, faith in The Maker is the best. Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you're not cool here. You're conflating religions and letting your own religious preferences bias your opinion of the discussion. Andrastians aren't Christians, Chantrists aren't Catholics, and the Tevinter Chantry isn't the Eastern Orthodoxy. There's no point in discussing fiction with you if you're going to tie it so heavily into your own baggage.
- First, if you bring Oghren to the resting place of the Ashes, he will note that the entire place is infused with very potent lyrium. The gauntlet is also strange, because the real ghost of some of those spirits (Maferath, for instance) have no reason to have their earthly remains interred there. Whatever caused those phenomena is certainly powerful, but if the Chant is true it [b]can't[/b] be the result of any intercession by the maker, because the maker is supposed to abandon the real world after Andraste is slain.
- There's also no reason to infer truth from the efficacy of magical items. Remember: those Andraste's arrows are sold in the Haven shop. It's possible that the heretics of haven are able to produce them.
- Finally, "all around good"? What about the elves who fought the exalted march against the Dales and when the cant of Shartan was removed? You're coming very close to saying that "might makes right".WorstClassic (talk) 00:10, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- The disbelief of some dwarves does not in any way disprove The Maker. In fact, look at what belief in the stone and the ancestors has brought them. They are nearing their own extinction and only have two major Thaigs left before the events of Awakening.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Spirits, demons, dragons, mages, kings, etc. can all pose as gods, but they are all false. We know this. Calling something "god" does not make it the true God.
- We know that Thedas exists, therefore some intelligence must have made it, therefore that maker exists. The only question is if that intelligence matches the one described in the Chant.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Not actually true. We know that Thedas doesn't exist and is a work of fiction written by a team of writers. That's why I say it's "designed by committee". Thedas is different from our reality in that we can actually go and shake hands with the actual creators and maintainers of Thedas. It's natural then, that the fictitious "natural order" of Thedas (which includes things that would be supernatural (e.g. spirits, magic)) might betray that reality.
- If we're speaking within that fiction, the people of Thedas know that it exists but really have no reason to believe in a guiding intelligence. The Qunari don't presuppose such a thing and they seem poised to spread across the entirety of Thedas. As far as they're concerned, the Qun is an "all around good and productive" code.WorstClassic (talk) 00:10, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Where is the evidence that it was designed by a committee? There is reason to believe The Maker exists because the Chant of Light describes The Maker and the events of the past in great detail. Some of those events have been confirmed as true historically.
- The difference between The Maker and the false gods is that The Maker is the only one described to have created everything. The Elven gods are said to have made only certain things. The Tevinter gods are said to have only ruled over things and created certain magics. And the same problem with the dwarves applies to them as well. Where have their beliefs led them? The elves are fragmented and/or oppressed; and Tevinter, while an empire in it's own right, is responsible for many evils in the world including the Darkspawn.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- The [b]big[/b] difference between the Tevinter gods and the maker or elven gods is that the old Tevinter gods are apparently real, powerful (if mortal) entities. We don't have many reasons to believe that the maker exists (or for that matter that any gods but the Tevinter's). The thing I've been trying to explain to you is this: omnipotence does not a god make. It is a word with a much broader definition than that.
- Though it is possible we're just disagreeing on definitions, if you accept omnipotence as an essential criterion for a "true god" then it's very likely that Thedas has none currently or never had any. For the purposes of discussing TheDAS, I'd use the term "false god" to mean a supernatural entity attempting to impersonate another one or adopt a new identity after already having one.
- e.g. Consider this possibility: the maker is actually the elven trickster god allying itself with a magically potent mortal to save its people from the Tevinters and make a giant power grab. It fits within the fiction just as well as an absent father-figure deity.WorstClassic (talk) 00:10, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that we don't know the specifics of Flemeth's magic, but we know there are rules to it. The Maker would have no rules to follow. The Maker can do anything. Flemeth can't do everything; therefore she can't be The Maker.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- The Maker does not exist in The Fade. Also, if what you say about Flemeth's power is correct, that she grows her power over time, then again I ask how she could possible be The Maker who is already all powerful?
- I'm not sure if I understand your last point. Are you saying Flemeth could be a male who takes female form because carrying and raising a child will be easier even though creating said child involves... doing it with other males? Eww.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- But you raise another point about Flemeth that shows she can't be The Maker. If she rapes dudes, then no she can't be The Maker.Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Also, Morrigan says that Flemeth loved the bard (I forget his name, Osen?), but The Maker loves Andraste. So that doesn't work. Believe it! (talk) 22:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
What I think is that Flemeth is either a tevinter mage of old (the ones that found a way to entere the fade and created the first darkspawn) and that she somehow survived the corruption, escaped from it, or learned to deal with it other than ecoming the first darkspawn with or without help from a demon or spirit of somesort. But definitely groeing stronger from it and that allowed her to live for such a long time.
@WorstClassic I'll have you know sir, I am the coolest person in the world. Believe it! I'm not tying our world's religions in with DA. I was just making a point that even in DA there is no undeniable proof that The Maker exists, but there is some evidence (which could be dismissed as coincidental or whatever).
Yes, it's infused with lyruim, but so what? Lyrium doesn't just make specific things appear. There is some kind of force guiding the way things. Not saying this is The Maker though. In fact I think it's probably The Guardian doing this, or perhaps other spirits. The ones met in the first test do have reason to be there. They would serve as protectors of Andraste's ashes as well as reflections of historical events. Also, I'm sure that's only something they do when pilgrims enter the gauntlet. It's not like they've been hanging out there for ages.
I agree that The Maker turned his gaze from the world, BUT that doesn't mean he hasn't turned back at some point or chooses to give a proper nudge of help in specific cases. Not that the Temple of Andraste is one of those cases though. I highly doubt that it is. More likely it was built and enchanted by her followers.
No, it's not possible that the heretics of Haven made them. If you use the eye icon to view the item description it says the arrows' tips were dipped in Andraste's ashes, and the ashes are what give the arrows their spell stopping power. Now, the heretics can't get to her ashes, hence why they need the Warden to defile the urn. However, there are Andraste's Arrows in the room before the first gauntlet test. So the logical explanation is that the heretics found those arrows in the temple and then brought them back to Haven. And going back to my original point, which you didn't refute, the fact that the ashes work in such ways is evidence that Andraste was Maker blessed.
According to Ferelden history the elves struck against the humans first. The humans then defeated the elves in a war and beat them into submission. I would never say "might makes right". God's authority makes right, or in DA's case, The Maker's authority makes right, i.e. The Chant of Light. But in the case of the humans vs. the elves I'd say the phrase, "peace through strength" is most applicable.
I'm not saying that with the dwarves. I'm just saying, look at the results of their religion. They have faith in rock, which is inanimate and without consciousness. What has it gotten them? They also worship their ancestors. Fruitless. And who do they trust most in their society? A crazy dwaven lass who thinks it's a good idea to sacrifice her own house to Darkspawn so she can get an anvil that will then be used to reshape dwarves into stone soldiers. Also, Brother Burkel was a peaceful Andrastian, but he was murdered by a mob of "stone children" when it turned out that The Chant of Light was drawing in a great number of converts.
Okay, well you're referencing real world people when the topic is about in-game facts. Please refer to the canon and stick with that.
Didn't say they did, and in fact they think that intelligence is no longer guiding his existence. They think he has turned away and they must prove themselves to get him to turn back to them. But what I'm saying is the fact that Thedas exists is evidence that it was MADE, and thus it logical to conclude that there is a maker.
The Qunari simply do not believe in anything that cannot be proven. If there were irrefutable proof of The Maker then the Qun would demand recognition and obedience to The Maker. Even so, they must and do admit that the world exists and something/someone/others/some force must have made it.
The old gods are also evil, and thus not creators of The Fade or the world. Plus, they are imprisoned, and the Chant says The Maker imprisoned them. So if they can be imprisoned, they can't be gods.
I understand the broader definition of "god" but the topic of discussion is the true God within the context of the DA universe.
Let's presume your trickster theory is correct. How's that working out for the elves? Again, look at the results. The elves are split up and disorganized, and the examples we see of them are not good ones. Zathrian pretended to be like the elves of old, with a long life-span, when in reality he was just living off of a magical curse he had created.
The Maker is described as such in the Chant of Light. If Flemeth does not fit that description then she is not The Maker.
Well, I kind of agree that spirits might not have a determined gender, but then again we do see spirits with gender traits. So maybe some spirits can identify as male or female the moment they are created, or maybe they are created that way, and then maybe there are those spirits that can morph. After all, some spirits identify with a specific emotion or principle, like Justice. In Flemeth's case, I'd say she's a female. If she wasn't at first, then by now she is, given her long history of being one.
No doubt that demons don't feel bad about doing worse, but the point is that this is The Maker we're talking about, a figure of morality and righteousness.
I think you might just be right. The Maker is Fan'Harel, and Fan'Harel is Flemeth. Maybe the darkspawn weren't a curse. Maybe the Old Gods taught the magisters how to enter the Golden City where Flemeth was so they could swoop in and kill her, taking the power from her. But she managed to send them underground before she left the Fade. The magisters got tainted, but still kept the connection with the old gods. Magisters spread the taint to others and they too follow the call of the gods.
Also, I just thought of this. What if Andraste was Flemeth? You know, a human possesed by the Maker Flemeth. If the magisters were working with the Old Gods to defeat Flemeth The Maker, she had to act. Henio0 (talk) 20:46, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- And I just spotted it was mentioned before. Anyway... :D Henio0 (talk) 20:46, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
i think flemeth is andraste [irontech37650]