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How do these work? The values are given as multipliers, but multiplying what? Multiplying damage, attack, magic, or some stat relevant to the talent/spell? I can guess physical force does knockback, cold freezes, fire burns, but do lightning, spirit and nature forces cause any effect? And are these separate from disorient/stagger/brittle, or can they cause them also? DokEnkephalin (talk) 16:26, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

i'm not clear on what precisely the numerical amounts are, but i'm pretty sure elemental force is just the magic version of physical force. so physical force x4 could be what, 400 newtowns like in mass effect, or maybe 4 times the force of a standard attack? also, cold force is NOT what freezes, it doesn't even exist, there's no difference in elemental force caused by a fire spell or ice spell, there's only physical and elemental. they literally mean just that, force, so movement, applied to your enemy.82.173.213.195 (talk) 17:06, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "force" means something different in game mechanics than in real life physics. I mean "cold" and "fire" force don't exist in reality, yet the values are listed in the spells/talents, and on equipment. Let's try to keep this in context. DokEnkephalin (talk) 17:46, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

My guess is that the force of a basic attack is 1x base damage, whereas abilities give multipliers to both damage and force. So I'm guessing the force of an attack is calculated as (base damage) * (force). This would go for both physical and elemental attacks. Tivadar (talk) 18:10, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

It must be distinct from damage, because it receives a separate value right next to it. Elemental force can't always be the same as physical force. Spirit bolt deals spirit damage, but specifically deals physical force. Fireballs deal "elemental force", though that appears to have a physical effect. The cold spells also have an elemental force, but never have a physical effect. Same as electricity, and one brief loadscreen tip mentions that it depletes the target's mana. It seems to me that force means something a little different for each element, it's just not obvious what. The force mage specialization increases physical and elemental forces by 25% -- wouldn't that be a redundant description if all elemental forces were the same? DokEnkephalin (talk) 18:31, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

That's a good point. Perhaps the type of force dictates what resistances the enemy uses towards it? But you're right, I rarely if ever see my cold spells knock an opponent back. It is a multiplier though, so it must be multiplying something. My thought was that that was the base damage, but it was just a guess. Also, with regards to the tooltip, could that be in error? I know electricity depleted a targets mana/stamina in DAO, but it was supposed to briefly stun a target in DA2 according to most of what I've read. Tivadar (talk) 18:40, March 29, 2011 (UTC)
Ok, this ties in with fortitude. Say you have 20 fortitude, and a talent/spell deals 15 physical force, your character will not be affected by it because your fortitude is higher. Now say there is a fire trap, its elemental force is 30. Your character might be lit on fire if thats what the trap is for. Resistances lower the damage dealt. --Drldrl (talk) 18:51, March 29, 2011 (UTC)
Fortitude resists the effect of physical force, not the damage. Fortitude would resist the knockdown effect, but armor would have to absorb the damage. Maybe fortitude defends against other elemental forces also? DokEnkephalin (talk) 19:46, March 29, 2011 (UTC)


where do you people get the idea that there are different forms of elemental force? also, where did you notice elemental force affected damage? because it just isn't the case. as i tried to explain before elemental force is simply that, FORCE, you shoot a fireball and it displaces the air, knocking enemies back. THAT is what fortitude does, resisting that force. there is NO cold force or fire force or spirit force, only elemental and physical. it's basically all just knockback, or as i said before a MEASUREMENT OF FORCE like the biotic skills in mass effect 2. if you play as a force mage, you'll instantly understand: you get a spell that only does force, and that spell doesn't cause ANY damage, and can be use to throw mobs into walls like in ME2 82.173.213.195 (talk) 08:13, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, so the Mage Force description and distinct stats for elemental and physical force is complete nonsense? And I don't have time to track down all the references to elemental effects that for some apparent redundancy are defined in the same sentence with physical effects, but the next time I see them, they should be taken out and shot. Whew, you really simplified the spading for me, pal. DokEnkephalin (talk) 08:32, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
Actually if you read what I said, you'd see I suggested that *base* damage affected force, not that force affected damage. Force multiplies *something* as 10x force at 1st level is very different from 10x force at 10th level. The question is what it multiplies. It could simply be your character level, or it could be based off of some other stat. Also, we're debating the *in game* mechanics of force, not what it means in the realm of physics. We want to know how its calculated. My thought was something of the form: (base damage) * (force) * (random number) <=> (fortitude) * (appropriate resistance) * (modifier for type of force). Where the modifier dictates the chance a particular force has of knocking you back, because as someone pointed out there seems to be a difference, despite what you say, between what ice spells do and what fire spells do in terms of knockback. Tivadar (talk) 12:42, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Physical and Elemental Force are the opposite of Fortitude. Look at the Fortitude description on your Attributes. It reduces the effect (i.e. distance) and duration of knockdowns/knockbacks and stuns for physical, and reduces the effect (e.g. damage, severity) and duration of elemental effects like conflagration (being lit on fire) or freezing (not to be confused with brittle). Have you ever seen enemies lit on fire and flail around when hit by Fire Storm or Bursting Arrow, or get frozen from the end of the basic attack combo with a Cold staff? Thats Elemental Force, I'm almost certain. I have been wondering what Nature, Spirit, and Electricity's effects are myself, but look at the staff combos - it's most noticable with a Cold staff. Bloodrealm (talk) 14:47, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

if you show us a video of a mage with a cold staff actually freezing a foe, i would be happy to see it, but as far as i'm concerned, what you're describing is purely aesthetic and not an in-game effect. it looks like the enemy's frozen, but it's basically just a short stun, not actually making the enemy brittle or 'frozen' in any game mechanic way. like how flame staffs seem to light someone on fire, but don't actually cause damage over time. EDIT: here are two seperate explanations which are quite clear: "Force is referring to purely physical force, not some kind of elemental force like fire or ice. Furthermore, force is a term for a game mechanic whereby enemies are staggered and/or knocked down, or otherwise stunned/impaired for a short time" "Armor resists physical damage, elemental resistances resist elemental damage. Fortitude resists all type of force. The main difference is that there are different reactions to the elements. Physical force knocks you off your feet. Fire will make you dance around trying to put out the flames. Spirit almost pulls out your soul." to me, it always seemed quite clear that force was something entirely seperate from damage. edit2: i saw someone on the bioware forums say that the times x multiplier is based on the damage of a spell, so an 8 damage spell with x10 elemental force would need 80 to be resisted. however, that would means that telekinetic burst does no force, as it does no damage. therefore, it doesn't fully explain it.82.173.213.195 (talk) 21:49, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

You won't find a cold staff freezing, or a fire staff burning, and none of them have elemental forces associated with them. Only spells and talents have force in addition to damage, and only spells will freeze, burn, knockdown, etc. This shows that damage is distinct from force, which is pretty clearly implied by the fact that they have separate stats given. DokEnkephalin (talk) 03:48, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's not totally separate; I put Sandal's rune in a spirit staff and it never dealt a knockdown. I'd like to test it out with a staff that deals physical damage, if I can find one with a rune slot. DokEnkephalin (talk) 05:09, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Not quite true. Although they don't inflict additional damage with staffs, sometimes, on an enemy with low Fortitude (i.e. the lower-than-Normal guys, usually humans and Hurlocks) they will reel back and flail around on fire just like the conflagration animation or stop in place for a second or two covered in frost just like freezing (depending on your Force and enemy's Fortitude, Cold may just slow them down). They probably don't count as the mechanics they resemble, but they are present. My Force Mage's basic attacks even with elemental staffs make them flinch a little as well, usually. Also, spells can still have Physical Force if they have it in the spell effect (i.e. stone and Force Mage spells), and I also never said that Elemental Force doesn't contribute to knockdowns/knockbacks (Fireball's improves with Elemental Force). Oh yeah, Physical and Elemental Force ARE both separate from damage (other than conflagration, perhaps, not sure though), for anyone still wondering. Bloodrealm (talk) 14:54, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

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