After reading Asunder and watching Dawn of the Seeker, we have had a chance to see more of Divine Justinia V. The point of the discussion is to see if Justinia is a visionary that will lead to the Chantry to a better future or simply an idealist that has not taken that steps needed to achieve her goals.

Rinshikai (talk) 04:43, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Rinshikai

The only thing the Divine Justinia V will do is sit on her old boney arse and do nothing, she is only a figure head and can do nothing unless she orders someone to do it for her. She's an idealist and nothing more. 203.45.127.20 (talk) 05:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Darkside

is sit on her old boney arse

This should show how much the previous poster actually knows about Justinia V. From my perspective, Justinia seems like someone who sorely wants to help fix things. But having to deal with prejudice and stubborn tradition (i.e Lord Seeker Lambert) is difficult, because when it comes down to it, the Templars and the Seekers were the ones with the weapons. She had good plans, certainly, but they seem to have led to an outcome that could be potentially worse than the status quo. 74.83.215.181 (talk) 17:35, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well in Asunder it mentions that the previous Divines were weak and old people, so the Lord Seekers/Templars had complete control over the Chantry. However Justinia changed the balances and played a critical role in the decisions. The fact that she helped the mages indirectly in the Asunder shows that she wanted to highlight her differences with the templars in order to maintain the Divine's central role in the politics of Thedas if the mages prevail in their war with the templars (if she sided with the templars and the templars won the war, the Divine's role would still turn into a figurehead). 17:52, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

From what we've seen so far, she seems to me like a reformist who desires change, but doesn't have enough actual power to enact it. The Lord Seekers and Knight-Commanders seem to treat the Divines as advisers at best and puppets/figureheads at worst, and no matter how much respect your position has, at the end of the day, you can't stand up to the guys with the weapons when you don't have any yourself. She simply has too few agents loyal to her to be able to rein in the militant arms of the Chantry, which might be why she's got what loyal Seekers she does have looking for the Warden and Hawke - the two of them are regarded as heroes (the ever-present debates on how much of a hero Hawke really is aside), so if they were to endorse Justinia's goals and speak out against her enemies, she could get a huge amount of popular support, and might be able to convince temporal powers like Fereldan, The Free Marches, or even the Grey Wardens to support her (whether those powers would actually be willing to give their support just on Hawke and the Warden's throwing their hat in with her is a whole other debate). --UrLeingod (talk) 00:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

These are quite a few good points, she does appear to some sort of vision or ideal in mind but, I'm not fully in support of her. This is mainly due to me seeing her a mostly an idealist. She has a nice idea but so far her actions up until this point have not made her seem like she knows what she is doing.

that is just my option on this for now.

68.146.208.80 (talk) 23:15, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Rinshikai

she has cassandra and leliana on her side.

She does indeed, but that has not really helped her at all. The Chantry is crumbling apart, its military has rebelled, and most of their power is is gone due to what appears to be unprepared, and not taking action when is was necessary.

Rinshikai (talk) 16:38, July 14, 2012 (UTC)Rinshikai

I still wonder why Cassandra & Leliana think that the Warden or The Champion would have any hope of stopping the War, when not even the Divine HERSELF can convince both parties to end the violence? To be honest, I think the Chantry has been digging a grave for itself since the institution of the Circle of Magi, and is now having to lie in it. If they ever found MY Warden and told him about the crumbling Chantry and Templar/Magi rebellions, he'd probably say "Good riddance." EzzyD (talk) 16:50, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

That's obvious. The Warden and Hawk are the most iconic persons in Thedas. Just like Shepard in ME.

I'm just thinking that if the leader of the faith that the Templar Order & Seekers of Truth draw their mandates from cannot convince them to stop, then how could one Archdemon-slayer who is supposed to avoid Chantry business/any other politics or a Champion of a single city-state have any better chance? EzzyD (talk) 17:20, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Good question :D

My guess would be that because the Warden has experience getting people to fight together rather then each other. While Hawke was present at the place were everything supposedly went to hell.

Just from what I have seen Justinia does not have the experience of working with or understanding the various groups the chantry controls. Nor does relate to them experience wise like Hawke may have in Kirkwall.

Rinshikai (talk) 02:12, July 15, 2012 (UTC) Rinshikai

Anyone have any ideas on how she could possible handle the Chantry problem she had a hand making?

Rinshikai (talk) 15:25, July 16, 2012 (UTC)Rinshikai

Sit on her arse and let the next PC do it? Matt-256 (talk) 22:15, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hehe..thats what i said! I am so happy that someone has notice her boney arse, and all she will do is sit back and watch as The PC does all the work. 203.45.127.20 (talk) 00:59, July 17, 2012 (UTC)Darkside

I don't think the problem is that she did nothing, more like she acted too late. Her decisions during DA2 did next to nothing to help the growing situation. When she did decide to act, those she was claiming to help choose not to listen. I think that that would be more actuate to say, then all she did was sit on her arse.

Rinshikai (talk) 20:42, July 17, 2012 (UTC)Rinshikai

Strange, I guess overall most people don't have high hopes for her or her plans at reform. I don't know why but as of late I starting to see that the reason the Mage/Templar broke out was due to Justinia's lack of action when needed and the Seekers failure to do their job in Kirkwall. When they did decide to act they were already doomed to fail.

Rinshikai (talk)

No, the war wasn't Justinia's fault. If you read Asunder, you find out that she was trying to do all she could to prevent the conflict from breaking out, but that the Seekers decided they didn't want to be under her control anymore and left, taking the Templars with them. Again, not Justinia's fault, she was a moderate who wanted to reform the Chantry. Rathian Warrior (talk) 02:43, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

But isn't her job to insure that all those under her charge are kept in line. She may not have wanted war, but she was unprepared for it. Many abuses of power have happened under her, and she did nothing about getting the KC of Kirkwall to step down from the Viscount sit of power, which the KC should have never been allowed to get.

Another problem that I saw was many of the Kirkwall Templars were not held accountable for their actions. I know she can't do anything directly from Orlias, but she should have sent a seeker of two to make an example out of the more zealot groups under the chantry to make a point.

I have read Asunder and I also remember that she disbanded the Collage of Magi at a very delicate moment. I know that the vote was for separating from the chantry, but by taking their voices away she also made them deaf, now no matter her intentions she will not be heard.

This earned the distrust of many Enchanters, she used Wynne hoping she could persuade the Mages to wait but by then they were already distrustful of her because Wynne was considered a trader for siding with the chantry after Kirkwall.

I don't believe that she was directly responsible for the current war, but it feels like she is not taking any reponsiblity for the actions of the Chantry.

Rinshikai (talk)

You're forgetting that, whether the Divine likes it or not, punishing her Templars will in fact alienate them, as was the case in Asunder. You can't wag your finger at her for failing to act in the ways you describe but ignore the fact that, if she had acted in those ways, the result would most likely have been the same: Templars/Seekers split from the Chantry, only on an accelerated time table. It was the same with Grand Cleric Elthina: while the Grand Clerics and ultimately the Divine are nominally in control of the Templars, it is a delicate balancing game: ordering them to do things will often not go as planned. You saw this in Asunder multiple times as Lord Seeker Lambert grew more and more upset with the Divine's catering to the mages. It's all right to say she could have done more for the mages, but ultimately her hands were tied by the Seekers and the Templars. Rathian Warrior (talk) 07:52, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

I can agree to this, it is a hard position that she is in. However, more often or then not the best leaders often have to sacrifice that which they hold dear. I hate to say this but she does not appear have sacrificed anything of herself, or her ideals. Almost every action I have seen her do is a result of reacting to the problems that are building up after the events of DA2 and DotS.

I don't know even though shes says that reform is her goal and she wants to help the Mages. Her actions tell me that she has no real plan that is going to change things for the better. They show that she is trying to defend everything, which in the end is no different then defending nothing. You can't save everything, it is an unfortunate truth which she does not appear to understand.

Rinshikai (talk)

I think you're interpreting the situation the wrong way. The Divine wasn't unwilling to sacrifice something, she was unwilling to let a war break out under her rule. Her plan WAS to try and expose the obvious injustices being done to the mages and then change things slowly, instead of forcing either side's hand and having a conflict break out. All in all, I'd say it was a good strategy, because as things stand the upheaval may have resounding consequences for all of Thedas, not just the Mages and Templars. Rathian Warrior (talk) 19:17, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

The intention was good, but the conflict was already breaking out long before the current war. Kirkwall twenty years before 9:40 had problems stemming from the chantry over site and Templar control. At that time the chantry was on the verge of loosing power there. After Meredith lead a assault Elthina had the power to have the viscount arrested, which placed a puppet in power under the control of the new KC appointed by Elthina. This one situation was something that the Chantry should have never had but the did anyway.

Asunder in my view showed that she waited to long to do anything, she acted for what was best for the chantry not Thedas. I know she talked about how Mages are people like any other of the Makers children. However, she did not have much trust with many within the chantry, her ascension to the sit of the Divine was in question by many, she may have had a hand in in the death of her predecessor.

I know this will sound wrong, but good leaders have to be willing to make an example out of their followers to maintain order.

"Know your enemy and yourself and in one hundred battles you will never be in peril" This quote of Sun Tzu is one that I see as one of the most important things a leader should know. I feel like she may not know either, and that will only lead her to defect. She has good intentions, but can she relate to anyone? She may have been a Bard in the past but, are Bards worldly with many lives lived ,or are they simply playing the role.

Rinshikai (talk)

I don't dislike Justinia as a person, but as a leader she and those around her leave a lot to be desired. That is just how I feel about her character.

Rinshikai (talk)

Once again, I disagree with your interpretation of the situation. Everything I've seen in DA2 and Asunder points to the situation in the Chantry being unstable long before Justinia V rose to become Divine. As was stated in Asunder, many were used to the Divine being a figurehead, instead of actively participating in Chantry affairs. All we know is how the current set of events transpired, which were thus: when the Divine tried to do something, her Templars and Seekers disobeyed and thumbed their noses at the Chantry authority. I don't know about you, but that, to me, doesn't really say much of anything about the Divine's ability to lead anything: rather, it says volumes about how tenuous the Chantry's grasp on its military arm really was. You can say that the Divine could have "tried to do more", but without saying specifically what she could have done, your point is very vague and hard to comprehend. As I see it, if she had tried to make the situation better, all that would have happened is that the Templars would have split all the sooner. Better to sit on the throne and maintain nominal control than test just how tenuous your authority really is. Rathian Warrior (talk) 03:53, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

You make some good points on how the Chantry was unstable long before the Justinia V. To which I can agree to, but by saying that they have tenuous control at best you are making it sound like they shouldn't have any military (which I agree that they should not).

When saying that they have little control over the templars and seekers, that is saying to me the they are not responsible for their actions. Which is very wrong in my view.

How I see it in DA2 is the Templars failing are a result of Meredith, Meredeth's failings are a result of Elthinas inaction, and finally Ethina's inaction is a result of the divine both before Justinia and and herself for not taking action when it mattered.

In Asunder I see a woman who does appear to what to fix the system, but reuses to listen to the Mages to gain their trust. She works with Wynne, a loyalist by this time to speak on her behalf, but by then she is barley trusted by many of the first enchanters for voting against then separation from the chantry. Justinia then disbands the collage in want appeared to be a stalling act, which allowed the hatred between the groups to reach a boiling point. Then when the Meeting does happen she has ready lost their trust, resulting in a situation where she is forced to help the Mages escape. Leading the Templar/Seeker and Mages separating from the Chantry which starts the war.

The greatest of evils can come from the noblest of intentions, if action is not taken in a timely manner, then the intention is all but worthless.

Rinshikai (talk)

Once again, you say that the Divine "should have taken action", but fail to say what that action is, exactly. As I have said repeatedly, any overt action of trying to reconcile with the mages would have alienated the Templars and the Seekers that much sooner. Remember: the Seekers, the Templars, and the Chantry are not one in the same. Indeed, they used to be completely separate organizations. So when I say the Chantry's control over the Templars is tenuous at best, I mean it is tenuous at best. Trying too hard to rein in Templars like Meredith, who many in the Order actually supported, would have simply caused the Templars to break away from the Chantry that much sooner. And you can't say that the First Enchanter don't trust Justinia because of what she herself as done: they don't trust her because she is the Divine, and all the Divines before her have been, well, awful towards them. She tried very hard to gain their trust, even using Wynne to tell all the Circles that the divine had found a cure for tranquility. Unfortunately, the hatred and distrust on both sides went far deeper than that, and thus we have the Mage Templar war. I repeat my earlier statement: you say the Divine could have "taken action", but unless you want to elaborate on that, then my point stands. Any overt action taken by the Divine would have met with similar results as the ones we saw in Asunder. Rathian Warrior (talk) 15:54, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Would examples like these be what you are asking for? Reading through my posts I can see your point in me not giving examples. Sorry about that

Actions

Dragon age 2 act 3

Meredith as acting Viscount

One action I can think of is having a Seeker who is loyal to her go to Kirkwall and has Meredith explain why she was delaying the election for a new Viscount. From my understanding the Chantry in not suppose to become involved in the governing of city/nations. (I know it does happen but it shouldn’t). The Seeker should have Meredith publicly inform the people that she will no longer delay the process and return to governing the circle, if she refuses the said Seeker could relive Meredith of command. I know you’re going to say that the Templar’s support her. However, by this point many are starting to dislike her methods, Tharsk being the most obvious and Cullan to a point. No matter how strong you are if you lose the respect of the people you’re screwed. Also at this time most Seekers were loyal to the Chantry. DotS shows this with many Seekers, including the High Seeker who is in charge of the Order. Results The chantry gains support from the less zealot Templar’s, the more zealot may see this as a wakeup call to clean up their act, The Mages may see as a sign that the Divine may care about them, and their well being, and the nobles in Kirkwall would see that the Chantry in willing to sacrifice its own for their safety.

Dragon Age Asunder

Speaking to the Mages

In Asunder she uses Wynne to speak the Collage on her behalf. A better way of going at it may have been speaking to Grant Enchanter Fiona directly. Instead of disbanding the collage, she should have had Fiona brought to her she that they could speak face to face. This could have shown Fiona that Justinia wanted to be on level ground with her. Possibly convincing her to delay the vote, rather than force it. I know that this is a long shot idea, but if Justinia wants people to trust her she needs to get her hands dirty.

Some clarifications about some things

I was not implying that the Enchanters distrusted the Divine; I was trying to say that they distrusted Wynne. Wynne does not see the Circle ever being free of the Chantry, that in itself, may brush the others the wrong way after Kirkwall.

From my understanding the Chantry does in truth have power over the Templars. If that were not the case, how could Elthina promote Meredith to Knight Commander? This just seems broken to me logically.

I also would like to say that I don't blame Justinia solely for starting the war, she played a part, but she is not completely to blame, sorry if I sound like that is what I am implying.

I have to tell you I'm enjoying this debate, I did not think that this discussion would interest anyone.

Rinshikai (talk)

Just one question Rathian Warrior, looking at your posts you keep talking about how Justinia moving against Templars would have just alienated them in to leaving sooner. In your view do you believe that no matter what Justinia did, the results would have been the same.

Rinshikai (talk)

I think that when it comes down to it, Shes an NPC. That's why her hands are tied by her ax crazy underlings, thats why she sits on her ass waiting for the next PC to fix shit. Because its her role in the story to be unable to fix things. Thats the thing about being a character in a video game. If your not the PC or the Main Villain, you dont really effect much, regardless of if your the Divine, A king, or the freaking Maker, the issue always comes back to the simple fact that YOU ARE AN NPC. Its your job to be ineffectual, and by all accounts Justinia has done her job in spades. BFEL (talk) 14:02, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

LOL that's definitely one way of putting it BFEL, I never saw it from that point POV before. Guess only time will truly tell if Justinia is what the Chantry needs or not.

Rinshikai (talk)

I thought that I might add a link to something that could be discussed and compared to what we know so far about Justinia.

http://www.sarahcornally.com/the-rare-qualities-of-leadership.html

It talks about some of that qualities that a leader should have. If this is not appropriate for discussion, please let me now for the future.

Rinshikai (talk)

Justinia will surely be a casuality of the Mage-Templar war, as in the summary of Dragon Age III it's written that "A desperate gathering in the name of peace becomes the epicenter of a magical blast that decimates the Chantry's leadership" --Cently Melanar (talk) 23:19, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

I'm hoping that summary and the suggested characters are fake, because none of that sounds particularly like something I'd want to play an entire game over. Rathian Warrior (talk) 23:08, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'm be more sceptical about the synopsis (though, for the record I think the idea of political intrigue and subterfuge sound amazing and is absolutely something I'd hope for), but I think the concept art's almost certainly legit. When compared to DA II's concept, they have identical art styles. Also, EA's lawyers contacted several gaming websites and asked that the information be removed immediately which, IMO, gives the leak a lot more credibility. King Cousland | Talk   23:24, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

None of the characters seem original. The Kossith seems like a taller version of Oghren, the elf chick is just Tallis, Zevran, or Isabella with pointy ears, and the benign Tevinter magister is almost so predictable as to be cliche. I'm hoping these are the very bare-bones descriptions, or else Bioware has really fallen into a rut in their character-creating techniques. Rathian Warrior (talk) 02:40, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

I understand that this survey news real/fake is big right now, but please stay on topic thank you. 68.146.208.80 (talk)

Sorry the previous post is mine, I was not logged in.

Rinshikai (talk) 18:19, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think Divine Justinia is doing a whole lot more than the previous divines in her attempts to keep the peace albeit she has almost no help from anyone. The Chantry's control over the Templars seems to be one of appearances, they're only true loyalty being one of faith and even that one is questionable. The Templars respect the Divine because she is the Divine and follow her commands because they are supposed to, but in the end they don't HAVE to.

Next is the fact that while Justinia is ultimately responsible of everyone below her it's unreasonable to expect her to be able to deal with absolutely every single issue when it comes to her. The Divine oversees the broad status of the Chantry and like a government head must rely on those below her to do their jobs. Each Grand Cleric is responsible for their region and the Templars beneath her but when you have an overzealous military commander underneath you basically taking away your control of any situation it's hard to be effective. The previous Viscount of Kirkwall attempted to strap down the templars for greed or whatever is unimportant the fact is when Meredith killed him and her superior she set a precedent; NO one was safe, not the Viscount, not the populace, not even the Grand Cleric and thus they were forced to pander to her while attempting to achieve their goals. It showed just how weak the Chantry's hold was over the Templars was. Not to mention the fact that until she usurps control at the end of Act 2 in the eyes of the populace most thought she could do no wrong.

Personally I see the sending of a Seeker as an antagonistic move by the Divine, it lacks any subtlety, it's basically sending a member of Internal Affairs to swat Meredith down, but honestly Meredith wasn't some pawn to be moved to and from when the Divine pleased she was a piece of the other player. She had to play a three way game of chess and only had one move to make while the other side had two.

By the time Asunder happened the Chantry (possibly not even the Divine) had voted to abolish the College of Magi in fear that the other Circles would rebel and arguably it was a justified fear. Fiona was campaigning for independence, she had no qualms of stepping on anybody's toes and most mages shared her sentiment. So what was the Divine doing when she had people like Meredith and Fiona literally hacking at the other? She looked for a solution to the whole mess. If mages were relieved of their magic without suffering the Rite of Tranquility than the need for a Circle of Magi is no longer needed except to police those who wanted to keep their magic and by then you could basically say they were choosing the Circle as they had a way out.

The problem with any well laid plan is that if you have forces working against you i.e the Lord Seeker Lambert and Fiona it doesn’t matter what you do, both wanted their way and nobody was going to stop them. What would have happened if the Circle had actually discussed Pharamond’s research and the templars hadn’t interrupted? Maybe in a couple of years they would have found a solution and been able to finally end this age old conflict, but since everyone besides a handful of loyal servants were working against her Justinia has been forced to react to every situation as they come and did a pretty good job compared to what could have happened.

Sorry if this was unintelligible garbage I’m tired. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 00:31, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Justina was esentially stuck inbetween a rock and a hard place. No matter what she did, someone was going to be P.O'ed. Even if the MT war was averted, we'd still be in a Lose-Lose situation. Avg Man (talk) 01:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

You make some good points; I agree that Justinia is doing more than most divines have. However, to me she feels like she has to do this all on her own, with just Leliana backing her. A questionable move a best, making her appear to trust very few people and in return many don’t trust her. Yet at the same time she seems to expect others to trust her because of her position.

When you talk about Merideth you have to remember that it was Elthina that promoted her to Knight Commander in the first place. I now this will sound bias on my behalf but, nearly all the power Merideth gained come from Elthina showing leeway to the monster she had a have me making. By not having repercussions for Templar crimes and cracking down on the smallest Mage crimes Ethina and Meredeth begin to lose the trust and respect of the Mages, and over time others as well. This is one of the most important things to consider when you are in a position of power. Spare the rod and spoil the child comes to mind when I think about Templars and Chantry relationship.

I personally disagree with you on sending a seeker to Kirkwall. It’s their job to investigate corruption within the Templar ranks. If you have watched DotS you learn that the Seekers are meant to be subtle in their work.

As for the so called solution that Justinia was looking for, it was an optimistic ideal at best. Time and again it feels like she does not understand that (NOTHING COMES WITHOUT SACRIFICE). TRoT is meant to remove a Mages magic at the expense of their emotions, which is the sacrifice. Her results have shown that she has placed the value of the few over the many, examples being sending Leliana to Kirkwall requesting that Hawke encourage Ethlina to leave because “She will not be safe here”. This gives me the impression that she values Elthina’s life over the lives of Kirkwall’s people. Another example was study of the RoT by Pharamond which she allowed, with the results ending the RoT reversed but nearly one thousand people died because of it. Had she had Templar cooperation this incident may have had fewer deaths. But again she told no one about the research, resulted in further distrust once it was out in the open. The ends don’t always justify the means; many end up learning this the hard way.

When I look at the Mage gathering the die was already case, and distrust for Justinia and Wynne was already in the minds of the Enchanters. Even some that did support Wynne before were now turning one her, because she was making promises she could not keep. As for the Templars and Seekers interrupting, looking back at Asunder I believe that Lambert said to Rhys that he wanted a war just so that he justify the enchanter’s execution. I believe someone once said that he acts more like a Templar then a Seeker.

From my understanding Fiona had no intention of destroying the Circle, and in 9:31 the collage was given a peaceful vote by the liberations for separation which Wynne stopped. When Fiona was elected I understand that Justinia did disband the Collage out of fear, creating more distrust among the Mages.

Would you be able to clarify how Fiona was stepping on other people’s toes? By the end of the book she seems to be quite a reasonable person. Requesting a vote and was willing to follow the result no matter what they were.

Overall I just feel that Justinia is a very idealist person who believes in wishful thinking. Her actions make her feel like she is doing this grand gesture as some form of redemption for herself, kind of like Wynne with the spirit of faith. I don’t think Justinia is a bad person, but she is far from a good leader.

As I always say this is just my option

Rinshikai (talk) 21:11, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I did watch DotS and as you saw there was plenty of animosity between the Templars and Seekers, the Templars didn't like that the Seekers didn't let them in on investigations and felt that they were unsubtle or beneath them. Again I agree that the Seekers are quite subtle in their duties, but in the situation you were suggesting where Justinia sends a Seeker to make Meredith stand down I just think it would be viewed as an attack, not a physical one, but a political one.

I don't think Justinia is a afraid to make sacrifices but even when her templars KNOW what she is doing they intentionally go against her. There really isn't a way to view Pharamond's research as a bad thing and if templars were involved they'd have either shut it down or keep him from doing what was necessary to get results. Lambert didn't care if it cured Tranquility or the mage's ability to use magic, only if it made it less effective and I'd say making it useless counted.

Elithina did promote Meredith, but at the time even the majority of Kirkwall's citizens felt the deposing of the Viscount was a good thing without seeing the precedent I talked about earlier. As Elithina went about her duties from there on she had to look out for the normal citizens and when Meredith's harsh methods came to light she had to remain in the center of things as a mediator. If she leaned towards the mages she could be accused of cavorting with blood mages or being controlled by blood magic and "replaced". If she leaned to forward towards the templars she risked an even bigger increase in the use of blood magic and was condoning Meredith's methods which from what she says wasn't the case.

The mages seeking freedom likely already had their minds set on freedom so they viewed everyone who voted against freedom as a traitor, they were allowed the vote and lost. So what do they do, what anyone would do, got pissed at the other side specifically Wynne who'd had the deciding vote. Wynne I think saw the bigger picture and new that "freedom" would bring more heartache than what they were experiencing. The war wasn't a guaranteed thing, still isn't in a lot of playthroughs, but Pharamonds research if focused on could have eliminated the need for the Circles and without the uneeded loss of life. Ofcourse that is all speculative now that the meeting meant to discuss this research was thrown of topic by Fiona and libertarians.

By what I mean about Fiona, she requests a vote for secession from the Chantry which would no doubt result in the loss of life instead of following a thread of opportunity that could have ended all mages problems without the deaths of thousands or even millions. Now that is not to say she is solely at fault here, Lambert as you said made it clear it was his way or the highway which sadly means that no matter what Justinia, Wynne or anyone did it probably was going to end up in war. Fiona is in no way a bad person, but she really didn't care about a solution that the Divine, Wynne or anyone else came up with and continued to bring up the vote for freedom which would always dominate the mages' discussions.

Also I'd like to clarify that when I say destroy the circle I mean dissolve it as part of the Chantry since technically it would no longer serve it's purpose except to train apprentices and act as a sort of Academy.

It's true that nothing comes without a sacrifice but Justinia really only has a handful of options and she in my opinion is seeking the best of the bunch however the deck is stacked against her. If the events of Dragon Age II had never occured it's entirely possible that she would have found a lasting solution to mages that didn't involve turning them into walking corpses or imprisoning them. Essentially she realizes that although she has a duty to the people the mages are among those under her care and she owes them at least the chance of freedom. Call it idealistic, call it naive, doesn't make it any less right or plausible.

173.49.184.58 (talk) 00:42, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

When I think about the Seeker example I came up with the idea was to try and gain the masses trust by showing that the Chantry will follow the laws of the land. It was meant to show Kirkwall that she is thinking about their well being.

From my understanding Wynne’s only justification for what she is doing is the spirit of Faith which she believes has kept her alive from some great purpose. I have to strongly disagree with you on Wynne seeing the big picture. I sorry but she is one of the most closed minded people we encounter in Thedas. She is the Mages Lambert seeing no other way but her own; where time and again she allows her own beliefs and personal views to Justify how things that must be done. You see this with her on several occasions such as the soldiers peek DLC where you pass judgment on Avernus. Were she says that he can’t go unpunished even though what he did benefits the wardens. Whereas Justinia’s RoT research has next to nothing to show for it, other than showing that it is reversible and cost more life then Avenus’s which was far crueler. The truly sad thing is Wynne believes that no matter what is done the Mages will never be free of the Chantry, if you talk to her in awakening.

As far as I know there is no supporting evidence to say that people were behind Meredeth when she overthrew the last Viscount and as she slowly gained control in Kirkwall the list of people who trusted her or Elthina got shorter. In the end neither one of them showed that they had the peoples best interests at heart like Wynne they allowed personal feelings to get in the way. I think that Fiona says something along the line that Justina is a good person so was Ethina and how she tried to make everyone happy until her in action got her killed. I agree with line because if you try to help everyone you end up helping no one. Sadly Jusitina has also done this. With failure after failure I see why no one was backing her or Wynne, neither of them has shown that they can get anything done. Can you name an event after the blight that shows this to be false?

By disbanding the Collage I would say that Justinia is pulling a Meredeth, by limiting Mage gatherings she only adds fuel to the already burning barn. No matter what Fiona did lives would have been lost regardless. By taking their voices away many Mages have no reason to believe in her just as they don't believe in the Circle system or the Templars after the event in Kirkwall. Which gave them justified reason to separate from the Chantry.Instead of preventing the war, the Chantry under her lead has insured it. She in not solely to blame but she is not innocent of this either.

When you talk about how she has limited options, that’s her fault. I’m not saying it to be a jerk but, she limited herself when she allowed problems to escalate to the point we are at now. When she was voted the next Divine many question the decision, some may even think that she killed the last Divine to gain the position. She was beaten long before she began. She appears to trust almost no one so why should she be trusted. Her ideals are nice but results have not shown much plausibility.

Now her only real hope is that the Warden or Hawke will step in to help. Which depending on how people played could result in Justinia and the Chantry simply being abandoned to their own devices.

People say she is benevolent leader, but is that really any better than a tyrant, neither one of these appear do what is necessary.

The link below may give people a different view on Elthina, it did for me.

        http://flutiebear.tumblr.com/post/10541914327/a-gigantic-rambly-post-just-whose-side-is-elthina-on

Rinshikai (talk) 04:53, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

So that article showed me a couple of things,

1) No one is entirely sure how Meredith came to power, either she was elevated simply because she was the next in line (after his murder by mercenaries) or because her commander was arrested and executed for unknown reasons.

2) This guy seems to believe there is a conspiracy going on and while he has some points there’s a lot of things to be said about Elthina such as the explanation for Petrice having the seal of the Grand Cleric could be that she got it while tidying up or even just plain stealing it while she wasn’t looking (simply playing devil’s advocate here). Petrice could have been surprised because she didn’t expect the Grand Cleric to take the Qunari’s side and hell maybe she even allowed the Qunari to kill Petrice in a sort of “oh well she had your men murdered and an innocent as well, fair’s fair.”. As for taking sides sometimes analyzing something to much blinds you to the simple explanation; she was in a bad situation, one that she basically put herself in when she elevated both Meredith and Petrice. For all we know Elthina is a master mind whose ultimate goals are to have everyone do what she wants without getting her hands dirty, but then what exactly has that gotten her? She’s not getting any richer, she’s not getting any new converts and ultimately proves ineffective at her job. All she has is the faith of the people and seems to pity mages.

As for the rest of it, the Seeker problem is still the same, the masses as it were are the people who think Meredith is doing a good job, we don’t see a lot of that because we’re shown the majority of events from the mage sympathizer position. But for the average citizen the Templars are protecting them from another Imperium or from the Qunari heretics. If a Seeker showed up you’d probably hear something to the effect of, “I wish it were like this everywhere” or “Meredith keeps us safe from the apostates that taint this city.” Honestly we just don’t know, but from an outsider looking in you never quite know what’s going on. Just look at World War 2, you’d think that we’d have known about the Holocaust from the beginning, but everyone was so involved with the war that people around at the time were only vaguely aware of what was going on and they were inside of the country. When Justinia sent Leliana it was to protect Elthina because at the time it seemed she was the most vulnerable as people were targeting her specifically. Essentially a Seeker trying to gain the trust of the masses is redundant as they see all the problems going on in the city as the result of mages or the Qunari, so sending Seekers to gain trust that they already had would be a waste of resources. Mind you it’s easy to say someone did something wrong in hindsight but even harder to say that you’d do something different.

Side note, the Codex for Marlowe Dumar is written from the perspective of someone actually against the imprisonment of the last Viscount and shows that while the nobles are against the templars choosing their leader I got the feeling that since Perrin was considered a tyrant at least by the common folk that him being removed was a step up in the people’s eyes. There’s always room for interpretation but that’s how it goes for everything we write.

Oh just got another one from the History of Kirkwall Chapter 4 Codex, “The templars were hailed as heroes, even though they wished to remain out of Kirkwall's affairs, it was now forced upon them. Knight-Commander Meredith appointed Lord Marlowe Dumar as the new viscount in 9:21 Dragon and she remains influential in the city.” So if this isn’t completely biased (Brother Genitivi doesn’t tend to be biased in other works) then the Templars were heroes.

It wasn’t so much a justification to Wynne as a reason for her being alive. As you’d expect she was curious why the spirit had chosen to save her and so she likely came to the conclusion that she was meant to see or do something. Next I don’t see how you can say she is the Mage’s Lambert, when they have little in common. She wants to avoid war, where as Lambert openly says he wanted to start one to justify executing the enchanters, but when it comes down for it she fights for the mages. She isn’t close minded but fervent in her beliefs. She thinks she knows what is right and just and stands by that, now does that mean she isn’t able to change her mind? No, in fact she was initially disapproving of my Warden’s relationship with the Warden, but eventually she apologized and said it wasn’t her place and that she was wrong, but happy that we were happy. Hell she even defends the relationship to Alistair during banter.

When it comes to the Soldier’s Keep DLC Wynne shows a reasonable amount of anger when it comes to Avernus. Not only has he been performing terrible tests on Wardens, but he’d deemed it a necessary evil. It might have been slower but he could have done the tests ethically, I mean he’s basically immortal and his research even with Wardens pouring in to be used weren’t getting that many results (aside from the potion) and as you find out in Dragon Age II he actually does get results by doing ethical trials, so I think Wynne is justified in thinking that he should have been punished. Not to mention that Wynne is a member of the Aequitarians and their whole spiel is to use magic ethically regardless of Chantry law. So my guess is that she’s just not fond of Blood Magic.

One question though (been a while) Does Wynne ask for him to be executed or just punished? As I recall she’s okay with you banishing him or even making him do the ethical thing.

As for Pharamonds research it actually shows that a Tranquil touched by a Spirit regains his emotions/connection to the Fade so while at the moment it doesn’t seem like he has gotten anywhere he hasn’t had the time of say Avernus who’s had hundreds of years to perfect his work. If they had all the mages focused on the experiment it could take a couple of months or maybe decades we don’t know, but at least they’d have a chance where as in the war, it could end badly for them and cost them more than they believed. It could not I’ll admit, but at least if they’d looked into the research it wouldn’t have led to war.

Well besides the fact that they held together for ten years seems pretty good to me, not to mention that there wasn’t really an opportunity for either of these people (Wynne/Divine) to prove themselves, let’s be honest there wasn’t anything going on that directly involved the Divine or Wynne. Next it wasn’t the Divine but the Templars who cracked down since many Circles were rebelling or on the verge of it so in order to maintain order they disbanded the College of Magi after I might add they had voted to remain in the Circle. Wynne chose what she thought was right/reasonable, but her word wasn’t the law of the land she had others who backed her up. It was a democracy and they chose Wynne’s position.

When it came to the point that a decision was to be made regarding the research Justinia sided with the mages. She reinstated the College of Magi, she let the mages meet to decide what to do with this information despite Lambert telling her not to. Fiona than while under the supervision of the templars calls for a vote on whether or not they should leave the Chantry (again) they were right there! What did she think they were going to do step aside and say, “Oh you want to leave…okay.” The whole point of being a templar was to keep them from doing that. Now mind you Lambert from there on forward had evidence that Rhys had done it (not that he was looking for another explanation though) and he didn’t have the insight that readers do, he tried to have Rhys executed (Cole’s fault) and the mages including Wynne who opposed breaking away from the Chantry fought back.

This is where I personally see the Divine getting her hands dirty, she intentionally provides a diversion for HER agents, Shale, Rhys and Evangaline to rescue the mages. Essentially she outright said to Lambert what he was doing was wrong, get those people out of there. The mages defended themselves and the Divine stepped in as far as position allowed her.

How did Justinia allow things to escalate this far? One she hasn’t been in office for that long as I recall; two the Libertarians even when the College voted to stay with the Chantry helped other mages to rebel and three you first start by saying it’s her fault and then say that she was beaten before she began. Sure things got out of hand while she was in power, but this is something that has been boiling long before she was even born. She’s just an easy target because she’s the one at the top and when the shizz hits the fan everyone likes to point the finger at the person above them.

I’d also like to counter by saying that the Divine not trusting anyone is sort of understandable. She was betrayed when she was a bard or during her time as a Revered Mother, her right hand and Knight-Commander orchestrated a plot that murdered dozens of innocents while also plotting to kill her and one of her best Knight-Commanders (Meredith) turned out to be nuttier than a fruit cake. Fate/the plot just seems to be conspiring to screw her out of any options besides stab, kill, kill which is what she is trying to avoid.

As I said before plans are great and you can do your damndest to get things done, but if the people who are trying to help you only make it harder on you than you’re not going to get anything done. If I’m campaigning for office, but my manager keeps telling people I drink the blood of the innocents and starts photoshoping pictures of me eating babies in order to get the serial killer vote no matter how hard I try (or how good their intentions are) I’m going to fail. Plus it doesn’t hurt that like an above poster said it’s just the plot forcing her to fail.

All in all Justinia failed at what she set out to do, not because she did anything wrong (though as this thread shows that is debatable) but because she had forces out of her control manipulating events so that any attempt at compromise went out the window.

Btw I don’t think you’re being a jerk, just passionate about your side of the topic, like me! I mean I’ll admit that sometimes I’m like, “Ooh idiot!!! Think the way I do!!!” but that’s just my competitive side. If I did offend anyone though I didn’t mean to.

Great debate though. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 05:14, September 6, 2012 (UTC)VanisKael

I believe you are correct about Wynne in Soldiers peak; she does not care about exiling Avenus or having him work ethically. But the potion in DA2 does not have as much power as it would if he was not judged. Yet when I see the results, Avernus never sacrificed innocent people and kept to problem contained. He is far from immortal and the results were minimal at best if he does things ethically. Yet Justinias research resulted in nearly one thousand innocent people dead, I know people can say that it was the demons, but in the end the blame goes to her for not seeing the repercussions of her choice.

As for her not wanting war there is a point in Asunder where she talks about using the Civil war as a way to increase Mage support. When I say that she is close minded I say that because she in my view believes that her way is the correct way and only way. When I talk to her after I romanced Leliana she goes on to say how by doing this I am forsaking my duties as a grey warden. Which seems very arrogant because how does she know how grey wardens work, the only information she has could possibly have is from rumors of books. Another reason that I think she is close minded is due to what the demon says to her in the fade. Saying she has accomplished nothing despite the extra time given to her, and now is a husk that can’t see past her goal. She refuses to accept because she does not believe that this is possible, just like she refused to accept that the Circles would ever consider separating. As far back as awakening we see that Wynne is not the most popular Mage in the Circle, Ise in the Weeding wood give us the idea that Wynne has been given special treatment and thinks that she is special.

In Asunder the only reason she chooses to fight in because Rhys was in danger, up until then she was far from caring and mainly used him for her own plans. To be fare Wynne is closer to a Loyalist than an Aequitarian, mainly due to her loyalty to the chantry, where many Aequitarians including Irving believe that they should separate.

When you say that the Mages and Qunari are what people blame for all the problems in Kirkwall, you do realize that the chantry did nothing to say otherwise. Elthina’s laziness or incompetents with Patrice allowed the tension with the Qunari to escalate to the point where they took the law into their own hands. Then it only took Aveline failing to watch out for guard’s corruption to push the Qunari to take the city. Up until this point the only thing that they did was be present.

As for the masses supporting the Templars you can talk to Cullen who admits that many in Kirkwall are in fact helping the mages escape. The duty of the Templars is to protect the Mages and protect the world from them. Yet barely any do this, and I’m sorry to say this by Cullen, and Carver and not among them. I have not seen a Templar punished once for crimes we now happened, but Mages get flogged for simply talking to non Mages. You see guys like Thask asking Mages to submit yet he will not do that to his own Daughter who is a Mage. This is a double standard where one could say, “you won’t dame your child to this fate but you will dame the child of another”. This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the Chantry/Templar Hypocrisy.

When Justinia helped the Mages escape, it was after she allowed the demands of the Lord Seeker. From my understanding the vote to separate came right after the battle of Kirkwall. Wynne stop it but this caused Fiona to be elected, which was Justinia’s reason for disbanding the Collage. When she did allow the meeting to happen, I don’t think the Collage say it as an act of kindness. Rather an act of control not any different than the Templars. I can understand why they are doing this, Divine/Wynne seem to think that the war can be stopped, while Fiona appears to see war in unavoidable. When it comes don’t to facts Fiona appears to be more of a realist while Divine/Wynne is the Idealists looking for the perfect solution for which there is none. Time Does not change anything unless action is taken.

Thank you, Im enjoying this myself Rinshikai (talk) 20:43, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well he’s been living for hundreds of years so while he is not immortal he IS in fact several hundreds of years old. Avernus actually was doing experiments on Warden, whether they were innocent is something else entirely but he was using them up like pieces of meat, it’s in his notes that he needs more of them and literally feels nothing for them.

I think it’s unreasonable for you to expect Justinia to predict the future for one thing and before you say you didn’t say that let me point out you wrote, “but in the end the blame goes to her for not seeing the repercussions of her choice.” When honestly no one can say that the research was to specifically go after spirits and that it was an unforeseeable result of an experiment. Do you blame early scientists when an experiment backfires on them or do you chalk it up to the dangers of progress? I can’t agree with you by saying that Justinia sacrificed anyone, that would mean that she knew they were in trouble and let them die instead of it being a freak accident that no one could predict.

But then if she was thinking about using the Civil War to help out with mage support then she was planning for if they did in fact go to war meaning that she would fight should things come to it. When does she show that her way is the only way? As I said in my own personal playthrough she disapproves of my romance than admits she was wrong. She offers her opinion regarding what she thinks a Grey Warden is supposed to do but after that event she apologizes and admits she was wrong and that she is happy for you. Regarding the demon, you have to take what they say with a grain of salt because well there demons, they want you to do what they want. Wynne is an experienced mage who’s been trained to deal with demons and so instead of believing it brushes it off as a demon being a demon. Regarding Ise she doesn’t seem to like anyone, Wynne in particular because Wynne is quite popular and it just seemed like they didn’t see eye to eye. Ise because Wynne didn’t seem to be interested in botany and Wynne because she didn’t think Ise had her priorities straight. It’s like if the world were coming to end, you want to get the hell out of here and I’m checking to see if I left the stove on; so now you’re angry and I’m angry cuz you’re rushing me. Ise sounded like someone sore that someone else had special treatment and she didn’t.

When does it say that Irving wants to separate? Personally I doubt that most Aequitarians want to separate since they did in fact promote her to being their representative, if they felt that she was not acting in their best interest they would have voted someone else to her role.

Yeah you’re right the Chantry or should I say Elithina did nothing to stop Petrice, but remember that many people shared Petrice’s view, not all of them ofcourse, but if you’re a part of a group angry at another group (and unaware of violent happenings) than there isn’t much you can say. I mean Petrice was just someone who held extreme views and to everyone’s knowledge (except her fanatics) that was all she was doing. But when Elithina did find out she gave Petrice the boot or the arrow as it were. As for mages there’s not much anyone can do to change people’s views of mages. And when I meant they thought mages were causing most of all the problems I meant like apostates, blood mages and such. Not that they don’t blame circle mages but people really don’t see the difference when they’ve been wronged by someone. Elithina could’ve talked until she was red in the face, but would that have necessarily changed everyone’s mind.

Elithina: The mages of the Circle follow the Maker’s will it is the Maleficarum you must worry about.

Commoner 1: Yes Mother.

Commoner 2: Poor woman, always thinking the best of people. Smh

Commoner 1: Yeah, got the torches and pitchforks?

Commoner 2: Sure do!

Not to mention that Petrice WANTED the tension with the Qunari to boil over. It’s not like she had noble intentions. She wanted the Qunari dead or discredited.

If it were the masses as Cullen says than there would have been arrests, dozens of people breaking the law and it wouldn’t have been hard to find the culprits, but as we saw it really wasn’t the case. There was a small group of people helping mages escape and we even find out that those people are a group of mages and rogue templars later on including Thrask. The fact is that DA 2 was supposed to paint templars as a-holes, mission accomplished, but besides a few templars helping the resistance we don’t get to see much of their duties outside of the mage hunting bit.

Ofcourse he’s gonna treat his daughter differently than he does other mages that doesn’t change the fact that he does things like let Fenyriel go to the Dalish or fights off fellow templars in order to protect Grace and her fellow mages. Hell he even becomes the leader of the mage/templar rebellion. Thrask as a character represents someone with the toughest decisions in the world. Hand his daughter over and possibly have her die, leave the templars and protect her or when she dies anyway to do nothing and go about his business. Considering how things went I think he did the best we can realistically expect.

No it wasn’t Justinia who dissolved the College but the TEMPLARS. They were afraid that if they let the mages meet more and more rebellions would occur since according to Asunder after Kirkwall a lot of circles rebelled and even more were on the edge. It wasn’t that because Wynne stopped the vote that Fiona was elected, she’d already been elected and put forth the vote but the College voted against it and afterwards it was dissolved because of the templars fears.

Fiona doesn’t care about a different solution hell she says she left the Wardens because she saw the perfect moment to separate mages from the Chantry. Her goal from the outset was to do just that, so realist maybe, maybe not. She certainly wasn’t looking for a different solution though. I mean if it was unavoidable why bring up separating so much? If I know something is going to happen I’ll prepare for it so that when it does come I have an advantage over whoever I’m competing with, but she brought it up over and over, even when she was presented with another solution.

Fiona had tunnel vision, simple as that. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 23:06, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

I don’t agree with you on Fiona not looking at another solution, the line was “I left the Wardens because I saw that something needed to be done”.”In the grey wardens we are taught to TAKE AN OPERTUNITY WHEN WE SEE IT.” Looking back through the book I see no indication that it was the Templars that disbanded the Collage, yet there are hints that Justinia or the Chantry did. Yet you make it sound like she is pushing for total Mage freedom. I don’t see her saying that the Circle was not necessary, alony that it needs to be separated from the Chantry,one of the two sources of many problems that we have seen in DA2. That is just my own opinion, but that’s just how I see it. It would be better to say that she doesn’t see Wynne’s plan working. “We can talk about the Right of Tranquility until we are blue in the face; do you really think the Templars would even think about listening to our advice”. This sounds more like someone who sees the bigger picture. While Wynne is clinging to a plan she hopes will work.

In this same scene we learn that Wynne made promises for change at the last gathering, and by now most stopped believing in her even Aequitarians where starting to lose faith in her ability. In the Mage Origin you can hear gossip of Aequitarians starting to favor the Libertarians over the Loyalists.

Also since when was she elected to be their representative? From my understanding she has been working for the Divine years, that wouldn’t give her time to act in Circle affairs. 

I will agree with you that in DAO she does say that she is sorry, yet in Asunder it took the threatening of the Templars and Seekers to get her to change her mind. I believe that people don’t like her because she has had more freedom then most Mages due to the fact that she is serving the Chantry, the Organization that has encourage people to think that magic is a curse, when the Chant of Light calls it a gift. At the ball at the beginning of the book she does appear to show the will to change the system, but she is told that she did not listen. I take that with a grain of salt but hearing this put one more thing against her.

One thing that pissed me off about her in Asunder was she talks about the Mages earning their place, but how many Mages in Thedas are going to get the same chances she did with or without the DA2 events.

I don’t expect Justinia to foresee the future, but she should be able to see a problem before it gets out of control. I did not say that she knew what would happen, but she was unprepared for the worst case scenario leading to the death of nearly one thousand people. She should have taken more precautions when allowing such delicate research. It may not have changed anything but it’s better to expect a plan to fall apart then think all we go well.

On a note about Elthina in general, I believe it would be safe to say that had she at least have tried to do something many people would not have seen in her in such a negative way. For the most part all she did was pray that the Maker would fix the problem for her. This kind of talk makes me think that the Chantry as a whole should not have anything more than symbolic power.

I also have to disagree with you on how many people are helping the mages. Thrask and his group are one example, but so is the sister of the tranquil mage on the docks, Anders underground, family members of the Mages in Kirkwall. When you look at the Codex you have to remember it’s from a certain POV. Many that speak ill of magic, Mages and positive about Templars and the Chantry are from the POV of Chantry members and Templars. That in itself can paint a bias view, which as you have pointed out in the demon discussion should be taken with a grain of salt.

When it comes down to it Justinia places too much trust in too few people. She gives no solid idea on who she personally favors Mages, Chantry, Templars, or Seekers. Where trying to appease all has resolved nothing. Placing too much hope on a plan where the Mages will listen to her, and leaving the Chantry divided leading it to where it is now. I know this sounds harsh of me but I don’t see her changing anything for the better.

That’s just my opinion Rinshikai (talk) 03:41, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I don’t agree with you on Fiona not looking at another solution, the line was “I left the Wardens because I saw that something needed to be done”.”In the grey wardens we are taught to TAKE AN OPERTUNITY WHEN WE SEE IT.” Looking back through the book I see no indication that it was the Templars that disbanded the Collage, yet there are hints that Justinia or the Chantry did. Yet you make it sound like she is pushing for total Mage freedom. I don’t see her saying that the Circle was not necessary, alony that it needs to be separated from the Chantry,one of the two sources of many problems that we have seen in DA2. That is just my own opinion, but that’s just how I see it. It would be better to say that she doesn’t see Wynne’s plan working. “We can talk about the Right of Tranquility until we are blue in the face; do you really think the Templars would even think about listening to our advice”. This sounds more like someone who sees the bigger picture. While Wynne is clinging to a plan she hopes will work.

Okay since there is so much to reply to I’ll go paragraph by paragraph, but honestly you sound like you’ve already made up your mind. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s getting a bit repetitive. By that very quote it clearly looks like she saw her opportunity to get what she wanted, separation from the Chantry and went after it. Hints aren’t proof though and unless we’re pulling direct passages out than all we got is the wiki. So here I go.

From the Fraternities of Enchanters: “By 9:38 Dragon, one year after the Kirkwall Circle's rebellion, out of fear of another similar incident in the other Circles, the Chantry has disbanded the meetings of the College of Enchanters, as well as any and all mage gatherings without their supervision. Thus, the mage fraternities are no longer permitted to conduct their meetings.”

From Wynne’s Page: While templar reinforcements arrived at Kirkwall to suppress further resistance, news from escaping mages of what had occurred spread to other Circles. Outraged that the templars of Kirkwall would invoke the Right of Annulment to justify the deaths of an entire Circle for the crimes of one apostate, some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so. In response, the Templar Order cracked down, further restricting mage freedoms in an attempt to quell further disturbance.

Both have differing accounts so to respond to both it looks like the Templars restricted mages more and more which is what any organization does to combat insurrection. When there are riots at a prison lock down is activated, visiting is shut down until things calm down, the longer it takes to do that the longer lock down is. Whether it were the templars, seekers or city guards in order to maintain order communication i.e the College of Magi is shut down. If it was in fact the Chantry you have to wonder whether it was a Revered Mother or that the generalization of Chantry/Templar is being used here. For all we know the Grand Clerics individually locked down their Circles, Justinia did it herself or as most see the Templars as an arm of the Chantry they didn’t distinguish who made the order because in the end the Chantry has multiple arms.

“We can talk about the Right of Tranquility until we are blue in the face; do you really think the Templars would even think about listening to our advice” clearly shows that she doesn’t trust the templars one way or the other. Not that they’ve shown that they can be trusted, but regardless even if they were willing to cooperate she’s just shown that she didn’t see another option yet she’s been provided with one. Fiona has all the right intentions I’m sure and she’s not entirely wrong about wanting Mage freedom, but why not wait to see if the experiment gave any results and then if it looked like they weren’t then when all options were exhausted proceed with the rebellion. That way you can say that you did all you could before resorting to all out war like a trigger happy lunatic. The point I’m trying to make here is that if you have other options there is no reason to go to war simply because it seems easier than what your options are.

There were changes being made, mages were getting more and more freedom, hell that’s what the Lord Seeker was upset about in the first place, that the Chantry was growing more and more lenient with the mages as years went by. Maybe it wasn’t what the mages expected, but it’s not like we know what was going on. What changes did they want? More freedom to move about the Circle, better treatment or less restrictions? Until we know that who’s to say she wasn’t making a difference?

From Fraternities of Enchanters: Aequitarians are the dominant faction in the College of Magi and in the Ferelden's Circle. They promote a moderate and popular viewpoint that mages must use their abilities in a responsible and ethical manner, regardless of the Chantry law. Aequitarians believe that all mages should help people and follow a set of rules and ideals. Known Aequitarians include Edmonde, Irving, Rhys, Sweeney, Torrin and Wynne. By 9:40 Dragon they are represented in the College of Magi by Rhys.

This was after Wynne died and Rhys was elected to represent them. As an agent of the Divine she would have the perfect opportunity to act as the Aequitarians’ representative. She’s at the source, but besides that, since the College of Magi was dissolved the mages ability to represent themselves became somewhat moot.

…

I will agree with you that in DAO she does say that she is sorry, yet in Asunder it took the threatening of the Templars and Seekers to get her to change her mind. I believe that people don’t like her because she has had more freedom then most Mages due to the fact that she is serving the Chantry, the Organization that has encourage people to think that magic is a curse, when the Chant of Light calls it a gift. At the ball at the beginning of the book she does appear to show the will to change the system, but she is told that she did not listen. I take that with a grain of salt but hearing this put one more thing against her.

One thing that pissed me off about her in Asunder was she talks about the Mages earning their place, but how many Mages in Thedas are going to get the same chances she did with or without the DA2 events.

Change her mind about what exactly? But even before she served the Chantry she had the freedom. During the Blight she was allowed to leave because she was one of the older, better respected mages. Gregoir also was more lenient on his mages as seen by the fact that even after every one of Anders escape attempts he was simply returned to the Circle. Sure he was punished, but that’s not the point. In the end Irving was the one who decided for Wynne to be able to leave and unless directly disputed by Gregoir Irving was the one who allowed for mages coming and going. Wynne holds the belief that in order to survive in the Circle you have to show that you’re useful. Not bad advice since basically anywhere the only real way to survive is by earning your keep. Make them think that you’re useful and they have less of a reason to hurt you. Basically how much of a threat are you compared to how helpful you are? If the latter outweighs the former then you’re good. From what we saw in Origins there were plenty of Ferelden mages allowed to leave the Circle, first Wynne, Uldred and the mages at Ostagar, second the enchanter who acted as a liaison to the Warden-Commander in Awakening and Finn is Witch Hunt. So right there quite a bit have been given leeway.

…

I don’t expect Justinia to foresee the future, but she should be able to see a problem before it gets out of control. I did not say that she knew what would happen, but she was unprepared for the worst case scenario leading to the death of nearly one thousand people. She should have taken more precautions when allowing such delicate research. It may not have changed anything but it’s better to expect a plan to fall apart then think all we go well.

How do you prepare for a demon to possess a Tranquil? They weren’t supposed to have a connection to the Fade and thus you can’t plan for it. As I recall the whole point of using a Tranquil was the sole fact that it lessened the chance for the appearance of an abomination. You can do your best to plan for every contingency but no matter what there are risks to everything. In this case most of them were unforeseen. Who’s to say that she didn’t expect the stuff to hit the fan I mean she was using a Tranquil, a being that lacks emotion and therefore imagination just in case a mage slipped up and got possessed. Besides having templars around whom like I’ve said would have no doubt disapproved of such research and would have hindered any progress. Like my uncle says when working with explosives no matter how careful you are there’s a possibility of getting blown up, it doesn’t help when people are breathing down your neck about it.

…

On a note about Elthina in general, I believe it would be safe to say that had she at least have tried to do something many people would not have seen in her in such a negative way. For the most part all she did was pray that the Maker would fix the problem for her. This kind of talk makes me think that the Chantry as a whole should not have anything more than symbolic power.

Whenever you try to play the mediator nobody is gonna like you. You’ll be called an apologist, apathetic and in the end be referred to as lazy or wishy washy. It’s the trouble of being neutral in a conflict, since you’re not working towards a clear goal everything you do seems to be worthless or backwards. Elithina unfortunately relies too much on her faith, people love her for it and she serves her purpose as a spiritual advisor, but it makes for a poor political leader. I’ll agree that she could have done a lot more to settle things, but by the time that problems started to happen in Kirkwall it was too far gone and the appearance of Hawke broke the camel’s back.

Chantry power believe it or not really is symbolic only. They get most of their power yes through their great military strength but more so because the kingdoms they are welcome in allow it. As you can see Meredith can complain all she wants, the same with Agatha (the templar from Awakening) but in the end they can’t force people to do anything. Meredith wanted Aveline to supply more guards to the Knight-Commanders efforts to hunt mages. Aveline basically said eff off, my job is to protect Kirkwall, you’re is to hunt mages. Had all of Kirkwall said, Meredith step down or GTFO she would have had to comply but the simple fact that she had at least a majority of the people’s backing/indifference tells me they could care less unless it affected their lives. Remember in the Landsmeet, when deciding a King the Chantry could support the Warden? It had no effect on the outcome of the decision though, so while the Divine, Revered Mother’s opinions are greatly respected (by some) they hold no real weight without the people’s backing.

… I also have to disagree with you on how many people are helping the mages. Thrask and his group are one example, but so is the sister of the tranquil mage on the docks, Anders underground, family members of the Mages in Kirkwall. When you look at the Codex you have to remember it’s from a certain POV. Many that speak ill of magic, Mages and positive about Templars and the Chantry are from the POV of Chantry members and Templars. That in itself can paint a bias view, which as you have pointed out in the demon discussion should be taken with a grain of salt.

So let me try to quantify that as much as I can without seeming biased. Thrask and his group, likely two dozen people if that right, plus the tranquil’s sister. 25. Anders underground (whom we hear a lot about but see almost nothing of but let me be fair) 45. And the family members of mages…so let’s go with an even 100, just for arguments sake. The 2000 templars, several hundred City guardsmen and not to mention every other citizen that feels mages should be dead or locked up. It just seems that comparatively the later group can’t hold a candle to the other otherwise they wouldn’t need to hide know what I mean? Just my opinion though. … When it comes down to it Justinia places too much trust in too few people. She gives no solid idea on who she personally favors Mages, Chantry, Templars, or Seekers. Where trying to appease all has resolved nothing. Placing too much hope on a plan where the Mages will listen to her, and leaving the Chantry divided leading it to where it is now. I know this sounds harsh of me but I don’t see her changing anything for the better.

Justinia trusts people who have earned her trust, i.e Leliana, Cassandra and others like them. In the years since her rise she has repeatedly faced assassination attempts by mages, templars and even her fellow clerics. So you tell me who else is she supposed to trust? Now that’s not to say that she is particularly paranoid, but she has to take precautions regardless.

She favors her people, whether that be mages, civilians or templars. The problem is that there are innocents on both sides and it’s her duty to protect them, but in order to do that she has attempted to find a solution that fixes all of their problems i.e. mages.

Mages = Threat of Demons/Blood Magic (Solution: Eliminate threats of Demons/Blood Magic by constantly keep an eye of Mages [Problem #1: No clear signs of Blood Magic use/Problem #2: Lack of clear definition makes Templars prison guards react preemptively in order to stop the problem before it begins. Reaction: Heavy handed tactics, prove effective yet are cruel.] (Solution: Remove magic from the equation, Magic = Strong connection to the Fade) [Problem #1: Current method of removal leaves subject shell of their former self Problem#2 =Most mages feel right of tranquility is a fate worse than death/causes rebellions and loss of life.] Solution: Come up with better form of severance from the Fade.

The above is basically what I imagine a scientist or scholor would come to the conclusion of as the most peaceful solution. The easy answer would be to kill all the mages or let them go. Killing them would simply result in what we have now and letting them go leads to the possibility of a renewed Tevinter, also resulting in large scale death. So to me at least the path is clear. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 16:03, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

First off I’m sorry if I’m getting repetitive, it was never my intent but as you said this is my competitive side talking. What I mean is once she saw that even if they discussed the research, the Templars and Seekers would not allow what they had learned to change anything. Wynne has always had more Freedom allowing people to see that she is useful, she teaches a good lessen to other mages in the Circle, show that you are useful, but like I said not every mage is going to get the chances she did due to not every Mage in the Circle the same Loyalty that she has. Gregoir is more lenient then many, but I also recall that in his past he beat a pregnant Mage. (Dragon age Comic) I think over time he is trying to be a better man after that event. Even if Fiona did wait, you yourself said that the Templars would have stopped the research from going that far. At that point in the story it appears that the biggest obstacle was the Templar/Seeker factions. No matter what was done they would not listen.

Can you show me where changes where being made to show that the Chantry was giving leeway to the Mages? Other then Lamberts word or the meeting of the Collage that Jusitinia allowed. I ask because I want to understand your POV.

I think that when it comes down to Meredeth the people are more afraid of her and the Templars then respecting them. Depending on who you support at the start of act 3 can vastly change who Kirkwall supports. I know that this is up to players but I feel like it something to consider. If I recall correctly, depending on the person you support will determine what mission is provided. If you support the Templars you are asked to help weed out what is left of the Mage resistance. Which results in is fighting Blood mages in dark town if I recall with only them involved. While if you support the Mages you are asked to kill Templars death squads protecting a Mage family member who sole crime was feeding her starving and beaten relative, and to investigate a hidden supply depo of the Templars. You also learn that many Nobles by this time don’t like Meredeth. However, that is just how my play through went, so this won’t count for much.

Just one clarification on your example of the Mages outside the Circle. Their where only 7 sent to Ostagar and Gregior was reluctant to do that. Adding the other 2 examples that makes a total of 9. And all the situations that they were in don't really give them a chance to show the world or chantry that they are useful.

I got to say you did a great job on showing me what Justinias solution may look like. It’s easy to understand and works in theory. My one concern would be what’s to stop it from being abused?

Let’s say that the research provides Jusitinia with the results she desires. What’s to stop them from going to war with Tevinter and using it an every Mage there, and every Grey Warden mage they find? Magic is the only tool that is keeping the Qunari in line, and helping the Grey Wardens fight Darkspawn. If Tevinter loses magic the Qunari will flood into main Thedas and destroy all that would stand against the Qun. She could offer the research to them for their own mages but then she would lose everything to them. Resulting in the loss of everything she wanted to protect.

If Grey Wardens have no Mages then they will be at an even worse position to fight Darkspawn. Possibly leading to something worse than a Blight. Speculation I know but I’m trying to see possible problems that may happen.

At this point would it be better to say we can agree to disagree?

All in all this has been very enlightening.

Rinshikai (talk) 23:00, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ah okay now I understand. The truth is though that the Templars didn’t want something that lessened the effectiveness of the Rite of Tranquility which is basically the Templar’s only non-lethal defense against mages and even though the research could solve their problems just like your fear that a working solution could be used as a weapon against mages everywhere it could also be used as a reversal of the Rite of Tranquility which could be used as a weapon in and of itself. Yeah not every mage is gonna get that opportunity I can agree with you on that, but they have a better chance if they fly straight and do as they’re told. Not that they should have to, just that it will make their lives easier. As for Gregoir I didn’t know that particular event as I’ve not seen that comic, but it is possible he is trying to atone, but equally as possible that he regards both sides of his duty, hunting as well as protecting mages to be equally important. As far as halting progress what I meant was if the Templars had been there for the initial process, but you do have a point. I think that had all the circles or at the very least a focus group had been dedicated to the solution than the Divine would have had her eyes on the project as well as a vested interest in it’s progress possibly limiting any Templar interference. This is all speculation obviously, but so is everything else we’re talking about :P

I guess it depends on the playthrough, I sided with the mages (though I tried to stay neutral at the beginning of Act III) and it seemed like the majority of people I met were happy or indifferent with Meredith’s approach. So I guess we can chalk that up to the results of our choices.

Not necessarily. In each situation their worth can be determined by their mission. They’re preparing rituals, fighting in battles against the forces of darkness or aiding a valued ally of the Circle/Chantry i.e. the Warden Commander. We unfortunately don’t have enough data to say whether or not mages were rewarded for their service except in the cases of Wynne and Ines who were amazingly traveling without Templar supervision which says a lot in my opinion.

Almost anything can be abused but as far as I understand the Rite of Tranquility and (assuming) this solution follows a similar practice this method would require a lot of preparation, i.e the supplies it takes to perform it as well as the compliance of a mage to enter the Fade and beckon a spirit. With that in mind I don’t think it would be an effective military strategy for one and two would require an army to invade Minrathous which the Qunari, Andraste and even the combined might of Thedas couldn’t do so I don’t think (at least without plot device) that they’d be able to abuse it outside of their lands.

I agree with the fact that it could be abused, like I said anything can be, but the likely hood that it could be is debatable.

Sorry if I was getting short before, was tired and felt like I was repeating myself without getting any answers. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 04:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

No problem, I understand.

I may have to think about another topic for this discussion.

Rinshikai (talk) 19:48, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Cently Melanar I have to agree with you on Justinia being a casualty in the Mage/Templar, however I am a little skeptical about her being able to get a gathering in the name of peace after all that has happened.

Rinshikai (talk) 22:36, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Good to see you again (and this thread) Rinshikai. I don't know I can see how some might still come to her, even if they don't entirely respect her they might gather solely out of a hope for peace. It's unlikely that it'll be Fiona or Lambert showing up but you never know. I agree that the Divine will be a casualty as well as a large portion of the more involved leaders of the M/T War. 173.49.184.58 (talk) 22:54, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Its good to be back, I've been busy so I have had little time to do much on the Wiki. If you or anyone else would like to add a topic to this discussion I'm all for it.

I agree with you that some may be willing to go to her. whether they are leaders or not I will wait and see, considering I don't fully trust this survey.

Rinshikai (talk) 23:26, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it has finally been announced DA3 is now official. Any thoughts on what Justinias role will be?

Rinshikai (talk) 02:24, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

When you mean the more involved leaders are you talking about Mages,Templars,Seekers and Chantry leaders? Or I'm I reading this wrong?

Rinshikai (talk) 15:05, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

Welp, being an ardent Blood Mage, I have little to contribute here. I personally would like to see the old crone and all of her Chant of Light-thumpers offed by vengeful Malificarum.Waffles (talk) 04:57, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

You know what is sad Waffles? This may be exactly what will happen to her.

Rinshikai (talk) 20:12, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

YES! The time has come for brutal revenge, my fellow apostates! >:DWaffles (talk) 22:43, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, your going to fall into the same problem that Justinia faced. A divided front that caved in on itself, due to poor governing structure, and idealistic thinking.

Unless you have a united front, your screwed from the beginning. Rinshikai (talk) 04:50, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone else think that Justinia is playing the Game of Intrigue? It feels like she is trying to use her old skills to try and change things. But does not realize that by trying to appease everyone within her care, she is causing more friction rather then building bridges.

One question that I believe that I should ask is, would you trust Justinia to lead?

Rinshikai (talk) 00:54, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well it has been over a week now so I will add a different topic for discussion.

With BioWare announcing that they are working an Dragon Age 3 Inquisition, it makes me wonder. Could this new Inquisition be working for Justinia? I recall hearing in a DoTS video that we may see Justinia again, but I could also be completely wrong and this new force could be working against her.

Any opinions?

Rinshikai (talk) 01:35, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

The inquisition could be indapendent much like the wardens, but i could be wrong and they are a group much like the seekers and answer to the Divine. 203.45.127.20 (talk) 02:29, October 11, 2012 (UTC)Darkside

True, just looking a the old inquisition it makes me think that, this could be either a force created by Justinia, hoping to change the Chantrys current predicament, and view of its darker past. Or be the main force opposing her, but as of now this is all just speculation on my part. Rinshikai (talk) 15:35, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well it looks like the inquisition, will not have to support the Chantry or Justinia should they desire.

Anyone else have a topic for this discussion?

68.146.208.80 (talk) 12:30, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Every discussion about her is based on speculations about her, not things we saw. People say she's an idealist or an manipulator, but we know nothing about her to have any opinion. If the inquisition's goal is like acted goal of the assassins in Assassin's creed - killing warmongers to stop the war, then I'll support them because mages and templars only want war to achieve their goals and tear the world apart, they both must be stopped. When 2 guys fight in a bar, guards don't care who started this fight, they make them both leave, similar sitaution is in mage templar war. I don't care who's right or wrong, I just want end of this war and if any of the side wins, it will be only worse, victor will use fear of unbiased civillians to take them over, it doesn't matter if it's Fiona's Imperium or Lambert's dictatorship, civillians will suffer the most.

We do actually get a chance to see her in Asunder and DotS. Which can give us a bit of an understanding into her character.

I don't quick understand the the example that you have provided from Assassins Creek. Looking at the resent news about the third game it will be up to the player on how to deal with this situation.

Reading through Asunder I don't recall Mages or Templars desiring war. Separation and Status qua definitely, but not full scale war. Off the top of my head the only two people I can think of are Lambert who wants to use a war to justify his view on Mages, and Wynne who wanted to use the Civil War to increase Mage Support.

Never once in Asunder do I see Fiona desiring war, I hear her talking about a great deal about total separation from the Chantry. That does not mean that she wants War, nor does it mean she want to recreate an Imperium. I don't think she even wanted to destroy the Circles, she just wants to remove Chantry and Templar authority.

I can agree with you that civilians will suffer, but I also see that Fiona has the Mages at a remote location close to the Anderfels boarder. I see a few cities or towns on the road, but if it is know that Mages are gathering at Andoral's Reach. Would it be a possibility that many non combatants will avoid it like the Plague?

Rinshikai (talk) 15:56, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

You think naively. Every group desiring freedom wants to rebel, because nobody will give freedom peacefully. My real people regained independence by revoltions, it was only way. Nobody can regain independence without fight. Mages and templars desire war, because they want to eliminate each other to reach their goals. Fiona is a bitch, she abandoned her newborn child. She told she wanted normal life for him, no orphan has normal life. Arianni never abandoned her son Feynriel despite being a human. Fiona just wanted to protect reputations of her and Maric. No mother has right to live for abandoning her child no matter what reason was. Circles existed for same reason asylums exist to isolate dangerous people from the world. Half demons and mentally unstable people are the same danger. Both hide well. Mages say they want to be treated like normal people, but it will never happen. People are afraid of magic even without chantry propaganda for same reasons real people are afraid of atomic bombs, so much destructive power in hands of few. Fear from magic will never end. Magic, demons and spirits belong to Fade and those things should have never enter the material world they don't belong to. I want both mages and templars lose, because they are too dangerous and too unpredictable to use their victory safely. When 2 guys fight in bar, they both are forced to leave and nobody cares who stared, I see mage templar war in the same way.

I am aware that change almost never comes through peaceful means. My point was to say I don't see the bulk of each group wanting war, it is only a few key people that do, Lambert being the most open about it.

Do you believe that if Fiona had kept her child that she would be able to take care of him? A Grey Warden life does not give people the chance to rise a child. From the way I see it the boy would have ended up being taken away regardless. Likely being sent to the Chantry, by either the Wardens or those that raise him. By giving him away he would at least have the bare necessitates compared to living in a nation that may not even have that.

I'd say that Arianni did abandon her son when she went to the Templars. If she refused to let him go no matter what then I would agree with your example.

I believe that it would be better to say that the Circles are a Penal Colony, its meant to separate certain people from the general populace which is exactly what the Penal Colony does.

The top example you provide makes me think that you believe that Justinia wanting to change the Circle without fighting makes her naive. Of course I could be reading this wrong, because your post before that gives the impression that you have no strong opinions about her yet.

As always this is just my opinion.

P.S

can you please sign you posts

Rinshikai (talk) 17:57, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Fiona was already cleaned from the taint, so she was technicaly "fired" as the gray warden, she returned to the circle, when she could take the joining again. Arianni spent 20 years with her boy and Fiona not even a year. Arianni didn't abandon her child, she only seeked help for his problem with magic dreams. She was a desperate mother like Isolde seeking help for her son. Jowan's mother detested him for his magic and she's the one, who abandoned her child. Fiona abandoned her child to avoid her problems, there's no excuse for abanding children. Arianni also seeked help of Hawke and her people. Fiona only abandoned her son. My sign is Just call me Dalish fan.

I can't believe I forgot about her asking for Hawke's help. Thanks for pointing that out Dalish fan. As for Fiona, its my understanding that she has been working with the Wardens for close to 20 years. At the end of The Calling I remember that she was heading for the deep roads to look for the Architect by order of the First warden. I know that the taint was removed but as far as I know she only became part of the Circle again very recently as told by Wynne in Asunder. As I said before a Warden life is no place for a baby, I see it more as protecting him from that life by leaving him with Maric and Duncan. That is just my opinion on that topic.

You have made some great points about your views, but I believe that we are starting to get off topic. The main purpose of this discussion is for people to discuss Justinia as a Visionary or an Idealist, and so far I have not seen much of a Visionary coming into play after seeing what she has done.

Rinshikai (talk) 00:25, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

I have a question for all the Justinia supporters out there. Without giving her anymore time then the six years she has had, do any of you believe that if she had done nothing different, things would have changed?

Rinshikai (talk) 04:21, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the splitting of Chantry and Templars/Seekers really is inevitable. Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the only persons knowing about the supposed split up are the Lord Seeker Lambert and the Divine (and the terrified page boy, who wrote the letter). It is hinted that Cole kills Lambert at the end of the book (although we cannot be absolutly certain) so what keeps the Divine from just keeping silent?

Then again rereading the epilogue I realise that at the beginning of the epilogue it's explained that there was a meeting with 15 Knight-Commanders where no one objected to whatever Lambert said - if this was actually the splitting up or just his plans for war we ain't told. I guess it looks more like the former is the case, but who knows...

I assume in DA3 it will most likely turn out the way that most Templars/Seekers really do declare their independance of the Chantry while a smaller splinter group while stay loyal to the Divine. Either way this is some food for thoughts. :) MidnightDA (talk) 12:09, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that once the Mages escape from the White Spire, there is next to nothing that the Divine can do to keep this quite. From my understanding the Circles have some form of crystal like communication tool that lets all of them network over great distances.

She had Wynne use it so it is very possible that Lambert may have done the same thing. Maybe even going as far as ordering the Templars to annual their Circles. We know that the one in Rivain was annulled.

Its possible that some of the Commanders may not have agreed with Lambert, but were too scared to question him.

In the end I think splitting the Chantry from the Circle and all related to it may be the only way things are going to change. It won't be pretty in anyway but things will change, for better or worse.

Rinshikai (talk) 04:32, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm back from vacation so I will add a new topic to the discussion.

A while ago I was having a debate with someone on the BSN about Justinia's actions since her election to Divine. I started to see a pattern of inaction on her part.

In 9:34 their is a Templar that sends her a request to turn all Mages tranquil. We later learn that he goes along with the plan regardless, and it makes me wonder. Did Justinia believe that her word would be honored?

Then three years later she decides to act after things have gotten out of control. I'm trying not to be too harsh on her but this just seems to be poor decision making on her part.

Rinshikai (talk) 16:36, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Tis the night before Xmas, for me anyway so before that I would like to add two phases that I believe are key to the success of any leader.

As Sun Tzu says "When the gushing torrential water tosses stones pushing boulders, it is because of the force of its momentum. When the ferocious strike of an eagle, breaks the body of its prey, it is because of the timing of the strike. Thus the forces and momentum of the adept in warfare are so overwhelming and ferocious and his timing of engagement is precise and swift."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/373678

Even though she tried to calm both sides of the conflict it feels as though Justinia was a fish swimming against the flow of the river. Though she had a plan she could not out maneuver the current that was the events of Kirkwall.

Timing was key to her plans but, as of now I don't know if she chose a time that would have had a positive impact for the Chantry. Many minds where already set, and plans already in motion. If many things did not happen they way that they did, we may have had a more moderate Chantry.

Anyway

Happy Holidays Everyone!

Rinshikai (talk) 03:45, December 25, 2012 (UTC)