Forum:Corypheus theroy

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not my word but i wanted to share and get thoughts

What do we know about possession in relation to Darkspawn?

First, there's the song. Archdemons use it to control the Darkspawn and lure them to their prison underground. We saw that Corypheus could imitate it to a degree, and was even able to manipulate Grey Wardens (who are otherwise only affected by it when they're near to their Calling), so perhaps he has to be treated in a similar fashion as an Archdemon.

Second, the matter of Slaying an Archdemon. As we know, if someone other than a Warden slays the Archdemon, its soul just wanders to the nearest Darkspawn, slowly altering their body to be fully reborn. On the other hand, if it's a Warden who slays it, the Archdemon's soul will try to occupy his body, but because there's already a soul in place, the attempt destroys both the Warden's and the Archdemon's souls, killing each one of them. Corypheus, even though he is a Darkspawn, would still have a soul, so perhaps there'd be a similar process. Killed by Hawke, an untainted mortal, Corypheus should have jumped to the nearest Darkspawn. Instead, he apparently possessed Larius(or the other Warden, can't recall her name), a Grey Warden, who has a soul! So how is that possible? The problem is a simple one: As far as we know, since their inception, it was always a Grey Warden who slew the Archdemon, we don't know what would've happened if a normal human being would have tried it while a Grey Warden was with them. Would this be the case for every Darkspawn with a soul? That if slain by someone other than a Warden, a Darkspawn-soul is able to possess all tainted beings, even a Warden? Than that would be one possible answer to Corypheus' (possible) survival. However, if we assume that an Archdemon is a special case, since he has the soul of an old god, Hawke's attempt should have been enough to get rid of Corypheus for good. Yet, there's a significant difference between Corypheus and the Archdemons: he is a mage, not only that, but a blood mage (and perhaps a Dreamer?).

What is one of the most feared powers of a blood mage in the lore? Exactly, mind control.

So the other option (that I think is true), is that in his last moments, Corypheus used his mind control-powers to break the mind of the Warden we chose to help and transferred his consciousness, possibly not erasing the Warden's persona but suppressing it.Star Metal Knight (talk) 21:12, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

1. The old gods sing the song. Not the archdemons. 2. I think it's logical that the archdemon seeks the nearest tainted creature when slain. If by a non-tainted person, then obviously that person can't be possessed. If by a Warden, then that Warden is closest and can be "attacked" by the soul. If a non-tainted person slays it and a Warden is closest, then the soul probably can't attack that Warden, so it seeks out a different target. I think that's the principle behind the Dark Ritual. So that even if a Warden slays the archdemon the soul still seeks out the child because it is a "beacon" of sorts, and presents an easy and desirable target. 3. Corypheus is a different case. His possession used bloodmagic and the taint. He was able to speak through the taint, and he was able to use bloodmagic. This refers back to what Avernus said about the taint holding magic powers beyond the ability to merely sense darkspawn. Corypheus has probably been unlocking the secrets of the taint for many years, even while imprisoned. Believe it! (talk) 21:31, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

I think mind control is the better theory (not perfect but the best we have yet until more information is revealed). The point of having a grey warden kill an archdemon is that it would "force" the archdemon to possessing the warden, killing them both, something that should also happen if the archdemon possess a bystanding warden. Another thing worth mentioning is that Corypheous seemed to possess the warden before he is killed, further pointing towards mind control. Caspoi (talk) 21:33, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

But here's the problem with that theory. If the Warden's final blow forces the archdemon's soul into him or herself, then it supersedes the Dark Ritual. In other words, it draws the soul, the soul does not seek out the child like a beacon. Next, if the archdemon's soul can possess a by-standing Warden after a non-Warden makes the final blow, then there's no need for a Warden to make the final blow. Noooooo neeeeeeed! All they need is a Grey Warden nearby to just stand there closer to the archdemon than any darkspawn and get possessed. I agree with you about Corypheus though. Believe it! (talk) 01:05, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

The reason I said that grey wardens force the archdemon to possess them by killing them is that it otherwise, the dark ritual was a very special circumstance that probably precedes the whole grey warden thing. I did not say that a bystanding grey warden would force the arcdemon to possess him or her, you misunderstood me there. what I meant is that if the archdemon possessed a nearby grey warden the same effect should occur as if the warden delivered the killing blow. Caspoi (talk) 15:51, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't write a by-standing Warden would force anything, just that an archdemon won't jump to the nearest tainted creature if that creature is a Warden. Also, my point about the final blow Warden is that he or she can't force the archdemon into his or her own body. The act itself seems to trick the archdemon into that body. The Dark Ritual sends a stronger "signal" for the archdemon soul to focus on. I agree that if an archdemon's soul went to a nearby Grey Warden who did not strike the final blow, then the same result would occur. But I just doubt any archdemon soul would enter a by-standing Grey Warden at all. It probably can't. A final blow is probably necessary. But here's one for you: if the Dark Ritual is performed, can a non-Warden strike the final blow and have it result in the archdemon soul flowing into the child? Believe it! (talk) 00:41, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree with you on all your points and it is because of that I thought you had misunderstood me. I have also thought about the dark ritual thing and think that it would actually not be necessary for a grey warden to kill the archdemon then because it is usually simply because they want the archdemon to posses them and now they don't. Caspoi (talk) 11:03, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. We have come to terms. Believe it! (talk) 15:04, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a great companion piece to this theory. Pay very close attention at 7.34. 21:41, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I referred to that in the text above. Caspoi (talk) 21:54, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw, you beat me to the reference.

Personally, I'm leaning towards a development of the blood magic idea. If Cory can body hop, that power is on par with Flemeth's ritual of possession. But Flemeth had to "soften" her new host before she could take control. Corypheus doesn't need to, because of the taint, and because of the hidden power in tainted blood that avernus mentions. The taint can be used to suppress the new host like the robes would have done to morrigan, allowing a clean body hop where the host's mind is pretty much gone, or merges with the invader. In regards to him being able to jump like an archdemon, it's not completely implausible, because an archdemon has a soul, and we're told that darkspawn are soulless. So it is possible Cory is also soulless and is capable of passing his essence/mind on to the nearest tainted creature. But I prefer the blood magic idea, and I can see many similarities with Flemeth's ritual of possession arising if this is the case. Like the possibility that Corypheus splits his "essence" when Hawke kills him, much like Flemeth did as a preventative measure with the warden. I'd like to see it be like Flemeth's ritual, but focused on the taint, that way we would get to find out more about Flemeth and the taint. 11:39, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Where Flemeth must prepare a daughter for possession, Corypheus does not have to because the taint already prepares a Grey Warden for possession. I don't think Cory is soulless though. I think he is sentient. Perhaps the awakened darkspawn have souls now too. But I think Cory's soul jumped as Hawke killed him. I suspect a very interesting story involving Blackwall and Corypheus during Inquisition. Believe it! (talk) 00:41, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

After what Xsari mentioned in the Hero of Thedas blog comments about Janeka nearing her calling I'm inclined to believe that Cory could only possess calling-nearing wardens. Since you can take both GW carver and Anders with you and they remain fine, it fits with the whole taint prepares them idea. As the calling approaches the wardens mind begins to falter, and its that which allows Corypheus' possession. Which also means there should be an interesting story moment with Blackwall, since he is potentially nearing his calling. Don't if thats been confirmed or not. 00:56, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah but Anders was already possessed. If you send Wynne into Connor's Fade to fight the Desire Demon she implies that she can't be possessed since she already has the Spirit of Faith in her (I'm paraphrasing). Corypheus wouldn't want to jump into Anders (if he could) or either of the Hawke siblings unless it was absolutely necessary though. Corypheus needed to escape, and if he had jumped into any in Hawke's party, Hawke would have been able to figure it out. I think it was confirmed that Blackwall is nearing his calling, similar to how Duncan was. What's also interesting is that he is romancible. Will a female Inquisitor be faced with the choice of having to kill her beloved and free him from the evil Corypheus' mind control? Will she be able to do it, or will she falter and be cut down by her love? Or will she save them both? What will she do? What CAN she do? Tune in for the next exciting episode; "Love's a Bitch Tain't It?" Or, "Black Against the Wall." Believe it! (talk) 01:40, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I know Anders and Carver wouldn't be great possession opportunities. I was just using them as examples to help describe the calling-nearing-wardens are better for possession idea. 14:18, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, can't Grey Warden Bethany go there too? Believe it! (talk) 15:04, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yes Bethany can go too. See Corypheus was once a magister of the Tevinter Imperium apparently one of the strongest in that he and a few others were able to create a spell that allowed them to trespass in to the very heart of the fade and were tainted as a result. (now was the Golden city actually golden or is that just legend because according to Cory it was black when they got there, that's a different matter that is up for debate somewhere else.) so now we are stuck with the question did he possess the warden you chose to side with by using a possession like the old gods or did he use some type of long forgotten blood magic spell thing or what i'm currently under the impression that he did a similar ability to Flemeth's possession in that he dominated their mind with his so that he was in control while they were locked away so he could live after being struck down by Hawke

Actually Corypheous never said that it was black, indeed he often speaks of it as golden, something he would not have done had it not been so. People are simply misunderstanding the quote "It was supposed to be golden, it was supposed to be ours". This is merely (or so I am led to believe) a frustrated exclamation over the fact that he failed. Caspoi (talk) 14:36, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Some excellent points here. If I may also add an idea that may have been overlooked - Larius and Janeka would have both been trapped in that prison under Cory's influence far longer than Hawke & party. Cory would have been much more familiar with their minds than anyone Hawke could bring, GW or not. Shenachie (talk) 15:48, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not Janeka, I believe. She arrived quite recently. Caspoi (talk) 16:15, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

I remember him saying this: "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?" so that's where i got the idea that it was blackened when they arrived could he be talking about having been corrupted since he went there yes but it just seems like he was talking about both the city being corrupted and he himself being corrupted. But i think it was more that both Janeka and Larius were nearing their calling (well Larius should have taken the calling long ago) and we know that as grey wardens age whatever hold the corruption at bay starts to weaken such as why they take the calling to fight darkspawn in the deep road till they are killed. WardenMaster (talk) 16:43, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

In fairness the whole "was the black city always black" interpretation of Cory's words is just that, an interpretation. The way he says it allows nothing to be written in stone on that topic, and leaves it to the player to decide. Personally, I believe the city was only perceived to be gold, that everyone's vision of the city had been influenced and altered, which is possible since desire demons have been seen to alter perception. There's also the possibility that the chantry made that up. But, it's a different discussion for a different forum. 17:45, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

That would work well with the whole "the fade is only what people believe it to be". People expect the city to be black and it will be black. I myself do not believe it but as you said it is a different topic. Caspoi (talk) 20:43, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

But then why was it black for Cory if he expected it to be golden? I agree with you that his statement was out of failure frustration. As for the "it was... black..." statement, I think that's referring to what it became when the magisters reached it. I think if it had always been black, then the "Golden City" description would not have ever existed. Believe it! (talk) 21:59, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

As I said I do not believe it myself but when referring to ACdeakial's theory I said that as the fade appears as the person believe it does people would see a black city if they expected it to be black and golden if they expected it to be golden. Again I myself do not believe it, among other things because of what you stated above. Caspoi (talk) 22:20, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

And elaborating on my theory, when the magisters physically entered the fade, they saw it for what it was with their own eyes. Think of my idea like this, when they dream they were looking through a filter, but when they went there themselves, they were seeing the unfiltered image. Either that, or entering the city itself "broke" the illusion. Essentially, making everyone right, in a sense. 22:31, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

(I'm going to try and re-direct the thread back to the actual topic since I did start us getting off topic)So I believe that Cory tyransfered his consciousness or something to Larius/Janeka to keep himself alive what exactly it was is a very mysterious power that I believe may be similar to Flemeth's possession WardenMaster (talk) 23:56, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

I actually agree, I rewatched the final moments, and when his eyes go black and it transitions to hawke, you can see Larius/janeka stumble as though something has just hit them. So, Cory lives through a flemeth like possession ritual. 00:07, October 20, 2014 (UTC)