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I have a theory spanning a pretty large chunk of the lore. Maybe I'm wrong, but here we go. Major Spoilers for Trespasser and Descent.

Trespasser gave us some impressive new lore in the world. Solas split the world in two, the Physical world and the Fade. This means pretty much ALL of the elven lore needs to be looked at more closely since the fall of Arlathan creates the foundations for everything in the post divide world.

Theory Overview! The Old Gods and the Creators are one and the same. This has been said before, but I would like to add that the Old Gods are merely the BODIES of the Creators, their Souls or complete minds are trapped beyond the Fade. I also think the Forgotten Ones and the Forbidden are the same, the source of the blight, and are using the Blight as a weapon against their enemies- the Old Gods/Creators who are physically sleeping below the Earth, trapped there by Solas.

Evidence! There are a total of 7 Old Gods, and INCLUDING Solas and Mythal/Flemith, 9 Creators. So 7 unaccounted for Elven Creators and 7 Old Gods. Odd coincidence. Solas becomes VERY distressed when the Wardens talk of digging into the deep roads and killing the remaining two Old Gods. Why? Why does he care? Why is Flemith/Mythal so interested in the Urthemiel soul from Kieran? It is notable that Solas, Flemith, and Morrigan all state that shapeshifting was MUCH more common in the days of Artlathan. Note that Flemith's SIGNATURE move is turning into a Dragon; the same form as the Old Gods. It is also notable that the spell Morrigan used to trap the Old God soul into Kieran is one she received from Flemith's Grimoire. Then there is the fact that Mythal and the Old God Archdemon Souls are both capable of body-hopping into different hosts. An odd set of connections if you ask me. Lastly on this topic, the Elven gods were mages. Powever mages. Mages have a Physical Body as well as a Spiritual/Dream one. We don't know how that worked before Solas cracked the fabric of reality, but it's worth noting.

We also know from Origins that the Old Gods are not directly connected to the Blight's corruption. Rather, the Darkspawn tunnel through the Deep Roads, looking for the Old Gods where they then corrupt them. The Blight was, according to potentially inaccurate Chantry history, not seen before the Magisters who broke into the Fade brought it back with them.

Grand Enchantress Fiona was once a Grey Warden with the Blight, but was cleansed while in the Deep Roads. As in the Deep Roads where the Old Gods and Titans are residing.

The Wardens also apparently know where the Old Gods are entombed. The gods have specific and marked tombs! Why would someone trap then document where they trapped Old Gods? Why give each one a respective tomb at all? The term tomb implies respect of some sort.

The Seekers of Truth have a group investigating if the Dalish Forgotten Ones and the Tevinter Forbidden Ones are one and the same.

And let us not forget Dagna's wonderful theory of connection. Tranquil and Dwarves, not connected. But Lyrium and dwarves, connected. Lyrium and magic, connected. Tranquil and the Fade, connected. The red Lyrium is just Lyrium with the blight. And Lyrium it titan blood.

My theory is that the Old Gods are the shapeshifted bodies of the Elven Creators, extremely powerful mages. Solas trapped their minds, their Spiritual bodies, in the Fade, while their physical bodies in dragon form were entombed beneath the earth. This also explains why they have tombs; Solas respected his colleagues, just thought they needed to be stopped.

I think that the Forgotten Ones and the Forbidden Ones are one and the same, also trapped beyond the Veil in the Fade as a consequence of their battle with the Creators (perhaps also trapped by Solas before he broke the world. He did it once, why not twice?). When the Magisters showed up, the Forgotten Ones gave them the Blight, which then extended through the Physical World when the Magisters were sent back. The Darkspawn then are drawn to their Masters' Enemies; the Creators, in order to finish the war that the Forgotten Ones cannot. While notably flawed, some aspects of Dalish history was right. The entire existence in Dalish history concerning the Forgotten Ones was that they were evil gods at war with the Creators. It's literally their only historical purpose- I doubt they got the fact that there was a war completely wrong. The reasons might be off, but there was surely some war between the groups.

When Morrigan uses Flemith's spell to possess Kieran, she cleansed Urthemiel. Flemith then takes the Old God soul and sends it into the Fade, or a protected world, where the soul of Urthemiel can reunite with the remainder of the Creator's Soul, wherever Solas trapped them.

Mythal escaped this purge because of when she was, as Abelas stated, "not murdered." She died, but perhaps such a powerful pre-divide mage like Mythal was able to maintain herself in her Spiritual Dream body while casting aside the physical. When Solas locked away the Creators, Mythal was occupying the body of some mage, maybe Flemith or maybe her host before Flemith.

As for Red Lyrium, simple. Titan blood with the Blight. The Titans also went to war with the Creators and were supposedly put to sleep by Mythal. Solas's breaking of the Fade and Physical world may be maintaining that the Titans, which seem to be BOTH physical and spiritual, in their slumber. From Trespassers, we know that in the days of Artlathan, most things were both physical and spiritual, as there was no difference. Something was broken when he made the divide. The raw power in Lyrium drives people who are overexposed MAD, which can be expected if you're telepathically communicating with what is essentially an earth deity. Earth deity with Blight madness? It's no wonder people go bonkers.

Anyhoo, that's my theory. Feel free to question. It brings out the truth. And we should all make like Cassandra and be seeker of truth.

FireBubbleMage (talk) 02:14, December 7, 2017 (UTC) FireBubbleMage FireBubbleMage (talk) 02:14, December 7, 2017 (UTC)

The there is almost certainly a connection between the Old Gods and the Evanuris and/or Forgotten Ones, but what exactly that is is unclear. One problem with your theory is that six of the Old Gods are male, while four of the Evanuris are male and three are female (not counting Mythal and Solas). The purposes of the individual Evanuris and the Old Gods don't line up either, although that might not be relevant if the Evanuris (as the Old Gods) presented themselves to the Tevinters as different deities.

However, the biggest problem with your theory is that the Old Gods were/are not mindless animals, so they cannot simply be the bodies of the Evanuris. In the Darkspawn Chronicles, Urthemiel communicates directly to the Hurlock Vanguard in words. Yes, the Darkspawn Chronicles isn't canon but that's just in terms of the events that occurred. If Urthemiel could telepathically communicate with specific darkspawn using an actual language than he could not be merely a mindless body acting on instinct. So the connection between the Old Gods and the Evanuris can't be exactly as you describe it.

It is an established fact Forbidden Ones are demons. Geldauran (one of the few named Forgotten Ones) was almost certainly an ancient elf, which implies that at least some of the Forgotten Ones were elves. It's possible that the Forgotten Ones included the Forbidden Ones, since elves and spirits are know to have worked together at that time. But the two groups can't be identical. Also, three of the four Forbidden Ones have been encountered in the series so at least those three can't have been trapped in the Fade.

Red lyrium is confirmed to be tainted titan blood since we know that titan blood is lyrium and red lyrium is tainted. What's unclear is exactly how a titan (or titans) became tainted in the first place. It's even possible that red lyrium itself is the source of the taint and that a titan or titans just naturally possessed tainted blood for some reason.

In sum: Old Gods = Evanuris' bodies? No. The Forgotten Ones = the Forbidden Ones? Possibly partially but definitely not entirely. Red lyrium = tainted titan blood? Yes but we already knew this. Silver Warden (talk) 03:46, December 8, 2017 (UTC)

  • " In the Darkspawn Chronicles, Urthemiel communicates directly to the Hurlock Vanguard in words." Is that solidified in lore or is that just a gameplay mechanic to make sure that you the player knows what to do, or more accurately that the player knows what Urthemiel is telling the player character what to do? Considering we don't hear mainstream darkspawn speak, and we don't hear the Archdemon speak, it's possible that those words are there for player convenience.

As to the Old Gods and the Evanuris, could either group be able to reenter the Black City? I remember one rumor back during the DA2 era (I think before its release) that claimed Flemeth's master plan was to use Kieran/Urthemiel to enter the Black City (which obviously had a major monkey wrench thrown in it if the Warden turned Morrigan down at Redcliffe). As mentioned, that was floating about around the time of DA2's release and WWNK has changed a bit since then. Solas's grand project will most likely affect the Black City either way. There's also a shared trait that the Old Gods and the Evanuris have of cheating death (well, so did at least one Magister Sidereal). DAWUSS (talk) 05:30, December 9, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, Solas told the Inquisitor that Cory had learned a technique of "effective immortality", so the body-hoping trick Mythal and the Archdemons pull off isn't an inborn ability. Anyway, I think that Mythal's "master plan" was the same as Solas's. They appeared to be working together - although Mythal also wanted revenge of some sort. Solas did say he had "plans" for the remaining Evanuris though, so maybe that was her intended revenge.

As for Urthemiel talking to the Hurklock Vanguard being a gameplay mechanic or part of the lore - can't it be both? I mean obviously it is a gameplay mechanic but so is casting spells and those are part of the lore. There's no reason to divorce gameplay mechanics from the lore. Unless stated otherwise, I think its same to assume that anything presented in the game is "solidified in lore".

There is more evidence that Urthemiel (and by inference all of the Archdemons/Old Gods) is/was sapient than just his commands to the Hurlock Vanguard, that is simply the most direct evidence. If you want to discount that for some reason, you would still have to explain how an animal acting on instinct could lead an entire army. Or how he could telepathically send visions into the dreams of the wardens. The Old Gods are said to have contacted the magisters in their dreams. During the final battle in Inquisition (and during the boss fight against him in Legacy), Cory calls out to Dumat for help. This could be interpreted as no different than someone praying to the Maker, but consider Cory's perspective. He said he awoke to a world where the gods were silent. Which implies that they weren't always. He was used to being able to actually talk to his gods, or at least hear them. Hell, his entire motive for becoming a god is so that he can fill that role himself, because he believes the world needs a talking god. He cannot tolerate a world with silent gods, and he says as much in his memories:

"I recited the old verses. How easily they come. Even after so long a slumber. Yet still I do not feel the presence of Dumat - hear no whispers, no commands. Silence has fallen."

Dumat communicated directly to Cory in words - he literally says as much. There's no reason think that Dumat was qualitatively different from the other Old Gods, so it's safe to assume they all could talk. And because of this, there's also no reason to think that Urthemiel's commands to the Hurlock Vanguard are not "solidified in lore".

All of the evidence points to the Old Gods being sapient creatures, not just especially powerful High Dragons. And since they are not mindless, FireBubbleMage's theory of them being the bodies of the Evanuris doesn't hold water. They are something else. Silver Warden (talk) 02:36, December 10, 2017 (UTC)

  • I was picturing it more as Urthemiel's orders/commands as more making the Hurlock compelled to do this (like, wanting to do this or desiring to do it), rather than telepathically telling the Hurlock what to and the Hurlock hearing an order given in the Thedosian trade language. I buy the idea that the Old Gods can communicate (with Archdemons I think their attempts to communicate get complicated, much like how a ghoul's attempts to communicate get complicated). And they obviously are able to command the darkspawn to do things. I would theorize that how they communicate with darkspawn differs a lot from how they would communicate with a Tevinter Magister or a Grey Warden (or anyone else, for that matter).
As to Mythal and Solas, I'm not sure if they're exactly working together as much as it is a case of them having some sort of common short-term goal. I don't think Solas's long term plans involve Mythal being in the picture. They both want something from the Evanuris, but I think that's about as far as their shared goals go. DAWUSS (talk) 03:25, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

The actual language Urthemiel used to speak to the Hurlock Vanguard is basically irrelevant. It could have been Thedosian trade language, it could have been darkspawnese, it could have been a series of images and sounds that doesn't really translate into anything resembling a human language. The point is Urthemiel was communicating to him, which means he was capable of communication. A mindless zombie dragon couldn't do that. Therefore, the Old Gods were not mindless and therefore they could not have been the bodies of the Evanuris.

In the post-credits scene of Inquisition, Mythal tells Solas he should not have given his orb to Cory. Solas agrees that it was a mistake and that he should pay the price but his people need him. Mythal than sacrifices her life in order to empower Solas. Mythal spent centuries hoping from body to body in order to survive. Why would she willingly die for a short-term goal? Everything Mythal did was about the long game - there's no way her final act would be anything that did not serve to fulfill her ultimate goal.

Some people think that Solas murdered Mythal. I find this incredibly hard to believe. At the end of Trespasser, Solas says that the Evanuris's murder of Mythal was the final straw for him, the act which ultimately caused him to make the Veil. Solas spoke of Mythal with great reverence. Mythal (as Flemeth) hinted throughout the series that a "change" was coming to Thedas. She was talking about Solas's plan to destroy the Veil. Mythal and Solas weren't just allies, they were partners. Solas's plans likely involved Mythal and were only changed at the last minute because of the destruction of his orb. (Solas basically says as much in the post-credits scene.) Silver Warden (talk) 22:04, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

The Olds Gods/Archdemons wasn't mindless. In fact, in the novel "The Last Flight" Andoral, the 4º Archdemon; fakes a wound to trick the wardens and attract them into a trap. --Virrac (talk) 12:55, December 12, 2017 (UTC)