Seriously, where did the hate come from?

A loyal, devoted fan was able to get the attention of the higher ups, and now her fan-made character is actually IN THE GAME. That's pretty damn cool. People must be jealous. MotA was pretty fun as well and everyone is disgusted with the boss fight cause Duke rides his pet Wyvern? Yeah, cause a Witch turning into a Dragon is so much more realistic.

Is the Tallis/MotA loathing simply under the "Haters going to hate" category? NwolC (talk) 22:15, December 3, 2011 (UTC)nwolC

I think part of it comes from her Mary-Sueness. Whether you like her or not, she's undeniably a clichéd character whose purely been created based on (perceived) FD fanboy appeal. Another part of the animosity may stem from the fact that she's just not that...realistic (for want of a better phrase). For example, when Josmael said he was a healer, she could have simply pricked him on the hand, but instead put his life in danger by throwing a dagger through his chest. Btw, please don't take this post to be a reflection on my personal feelings towards the character. If anything, I'm rather apathetic. King Cousland | Talk   22:35, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much how I felt about Tallis. She is very much a Mary Sue character, if not the actual definition for the concept. Forget about how she is a protagonist that we might not care for, (dislike does not a Sue make), Tallis seems to be a poorly written and poorly defined character. For a Qunari, she seems to question her beliefs a lot (and is yet never censured or "re-educated". Indeed, the worst that happens is that she gets booted down to a kitchen hand), and yet we see her being charged with not one, but two high risk missions (One of which would actually be covered by a completely different branch of the Antaam). Moving on, lets ask ourselves a question, are we playing Tallis, or are we playing Felicia Day, because, lets face it, there was little separating both.

While I could (and most likely should) continue, there are several others who have made clearer points, and just as many who will make better points, I will say that I would guess that if the Mary Sue litmus test was used on Tallis, she would score fairly highly. She is cliched, in every sense of the word, and in a series that deconstructs tropes and cliches, yet does nothing with Tallis that feels like blatant pandering. --Madasamadthing (talk) 02:47, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

That is one thing I want to see changed if this web series continues. It did confuse me that she threw a knife at the guy's chest, yet in MotA she goes on about how "death isn't always the choice" or something like that. So I do want to see a character change. Those reasons to hate a character seem pretty ridiculous to me. Bethany and Leliana are alot like that as well, yet they seem to have a loyal following. (Maybe Leliana no so much) NwolC (talk) 22:55, December 3, 2011 (UTC) nwolC

I neither particularly liked nor disliked Tallis, but, like King Cousland, I found her to be overly clichéd and not terribly engaging or interesting. However, I've got to wonder if the OP is trying to encourage a genuine discussion on the subject when he's already concluding that folks with a different point of view are "jealous" or that "Haters [are] going to hate"... Qalan (talk) 23:45, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I am neither jealous nor a hater, but I do not like the character at all. She is completely uninteresting and unnecessary.

It was a blatant show of fandom to Ms Day. Period. Her model doesn't even match the already existing game models because they were desperate to make it look like her real life self. Her storyline, as far as I can tell, has absolutely no link to the core game. In Legacy it fleshed out more of the game, MoTA? Not so much. I made it through the first episode of that travesty calls a web series by sheer will.

There are far too many holes in the main game itself to be tossing in a completely unrelated character and story. I would have MUCH preferred to get content regarding our already established characters. Like filling in any of the 3 year gaps, the battle for Starkhaven, any number of little prequel type stores like Izzy vs the Qunari ship, Anders flight from Amaranthine, or hell I'd even take Bethany or Carvers sides stories once they left your party (play as them instead of yer main Hawkw). Vhardamis (talk) 00:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

She's a very Mary Sue-type character. Either BioWare was star struck by Ms. Day or they thought we would be. Either way, I had never heard of her before this DLC but for all the hype surrounding that aspect of the DLC, I found neither her character nor her performance to be all that interesting. Wsowen02 (talk) 01:26, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

"Ah... Tallis. We have dismissed that claim". These (almost) words of Turian Counsellor from ME summarize my opinion on Tallis as a character - I can't cope with the fact, that she exists in Dragon Age universe. If you want to introduce a qunari, it would be better to make a more streamlined one, like Sten. I can't really figure out if she's a Tal-Vashoth living in denial, because she does what she wants all the time, neither I can figure out why the devs do not give me a dialogue options to really put her phylosophy to the test. Mainly with questions like these:

• Mage Hawke: "If I'm an unbound Saarebas to your kind, and we're in the same prison cell, why each of us is still alive?"
• "With all the talk of innocent people, who might get killed, because they are in Salit's list... I saw your Qun in all its glory, when Arishok slaughtered his way through MY city. Do you really want me to forget THAT for a time?"
• I thought that Arvaad hunt Saarebas with a squad of other qunari (as evidenced in "Shepherding Wolves" quest). In "Redemption" we have a Ben-Hassrath with a bunch of random people.
• ...I'm sure all of you can add to this list on and on.

So overall, I like Tallis for many of her quotes in MOTA - the wyverns mating, wyvern's prey impersonation, "could you knit me a sweater?" and "I got your nose" were great. But nevertheless I can't take this character seriously. That is why, even if I might like her, I can never respect her.-Algol- (talk) 01:44, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Having a fan's character made canon is pretty damn cool-- except Tallis is hardly an exceptional character and her plot is anything but interesting. Like those who posted above, I was hardly dazzled by Felicia Day's portrayal as Tallis. The character was poorly devised, poorly written, and poorly voiced. I didn't find her particularly funny (the "I got your nose" conversation made me blanch), particularly attractive, or a particularly good companion. The fact that an entire expansion was devoted to that particular character was ridiculous, and the fact I was suckered into paying ten dollars for it is unforgivable. The qunari do not interest me in the slightest, and the introduction of an elf (or any other race, for that matter) as one could have been a major turning point in my perception of them. Instead, I got a bitchy (she insulted each of my companions I brought along), zealous ("it doesn't make me believe in the Qun any less despite all of the evidence that this subject is inhumane!"), poorly written ("stick your hand in wyvern shit!") character who held no appeal for me. That I had to spend a good chunk of the DLC alone with her was grating enough, and that I couldn't dent her skull with a heavy object was even worse. She was a poor character taken in the completely wrong direction, and was an unnecessary addition to the Dragon Age universe. As an above poster wrote, there are enough plot holes and interesting nuances to explore as it is without adding another broken plot device. What's perhaps worse is that Hawke is not even given the option to dislike Tallis; the codex entry added at the end (from Hawke's diary, no less) shows a Hawke eagerly awaiting seeing her again. In any case, it left enough of a foul taste in my mouth to let me move on to better games with better content. It's unfortunate that DLCs cannot be sold like the game discs can. --Nettie Amell (talk) 02:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Does one DLC make the whole game bad? I mostly agree with you on the Tallis part, but the "it left enough of a foul taste in my mouth to let me move on to better games with better content"... I just can't understand. Don't hate DA, hate just Tallis:)-Algol- (talk) 02:34, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I completely agree, but Tallis came at a bad time-- before Skyrim and, more importantly, before the release of The Old Republic and the end of, for some of us, the beta testing months. --Nettie Amell (talk) 02:41, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I highly doubt that any of SWTOR beta-testers would leave it for DA DLC, even if this DLC was awesome. After all, you can play (or not) it later. So maybe it's more "bad time", than "bad Tallis"?-Algol- (talk) 02:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, this beta tester is certainly putting Dragon Age aside in favor of TOR. At this time, I have no desire to play Dragon Age 2 at all. It's still "bad Tallis," that's for sure; it's difficult for me to take Dragon Age seriously any longer. It's my prerogative, though I appreciate your concern on the matter. --Nettie Amell (talk) 03:02, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Look on the bright side side: after Tallis, BioWare has a lot of room to improve DA:) And good gaming in SWTOR:)-Algol- (talk) 03:20, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I have full faith in Bioware; I've enjoyed each and every one of their games, and I'm sure I'll enjoy DA3. Unless the bring back Tallis! --Nettie Amell (talk) 03:30, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

My personal reasons for disliking Tallis: 1.) Inconsistencies between what she claims to believe and how she acts. Iso dissaproves -10

2.) She brought nothing of relevance to the series. We met some Qunari, then some stuff happened, who cares? Iso dissaproves -15.

3.) She is an incredibly cliched character and the lack of substance created by the half-arse attempt to put substance there is painful to watch. Iso dissaproves -25

4.) The innumerable lore inconsistencies bioware created just to integrate the character. Iso dissaproves -80 (60 points of which directed at the developers)

5.) She looks weird and no answers are ever given as to why her ears are that messed up. Iso dissaproves -10.

Which leaves us at -80, not quite hatred, but a very strong dislike. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 03:59, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Is the fact that all Hawkes, diplomatic and upright ones included, are forced into outright thievery part of #4? --Nettie Amell (talk) 04:03, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I had somehow forgotten about that.

6.) Diplomatic and upright Hawkes forced into thievery. Iso dissaproves -10 --Isolationistmagi (talk) 04:11, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

As did I, while writing my gaping wall of text. Yours is noticeably better organized. --Nettie Amell (talk) 04:22, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I'd go with the haters gonna hate vote. Though its creepy the amount of girls that downright hate Felicia. I try not to hate people I haven't met or things that aren't real, though. Tommyspa (talk) 04:56, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

The whole "hates gonna hate" thing reeks of ignorance on the part of those who use the term. The fact is, people don't hate for hate's sake, there is something that they dislike a lot. For some it is the fact that it seems like Felicia Day was chosen simply because she seems to be the flavour of the month. For others its the fact that it looks like her whole character smacks of hypocrisy (resolute and firm in her beliefs, yet she questions everything about the Qun). --Madasamadthing (talk) 14:32, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Stereotypes exist for a reason. And they always bear as much if not with more accuracy than pointing out a couple of examples that shy away from the rule. Have you ever seen a youtube video filled with only reasonable debate? No because haters will hate endlessly, saying haters gonna hate it isn't even close to ignorance, simply saying otherwise by claiming others are ignorant doesn't prove you right. And if you feel the need to crusade against a sarcastic post on the internet, do it to someone else. Tommyspa (talk) 00:22, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

But the fact is, as you can see in this thread, people are not hating Tallis or Felicia Day for the sake of hating. They have given legitimate reasons for disliking either or both. Sarcastic or not, its a bláse comment at best and one that does not even begin to cover how wrong it is.--Madasamadthing (talk) 01:01, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Sure, in the confines of this thread some people have been legitimate, though there is enough of "they violated the lore from what Sten said once!" and "I don't like that it conflicts with things we were told once from a biased person in the game" and with that choosing to blatantly dislike new lore and information about other sections of the Qunari or a Mary Sue by default because people actually like her for what she has done in her career and like her personality and that turns to dislike or hate. Refers back to "I try not to hate people I haven't met or things that aren't real." I find those to be petty nitpicks and as bláse as haters gonna hate, thus the sarcastic post. Tommyspa (talk) 01:23, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

About the stereotypes thing: Many Muslims stereotype Jews as being Satan. Many people stereotype Muslims as being anti-semetic. In my community there is a stereotype that no one from Africa owns a car. Other stereotypes in my community are that in America, all republicans are rich and all Democrats are atheists.

I've never met a satanic Jew, and have also yet to meet any anti-semetic Muslims. I've met people from Moracco and Egypt, and am currently in touch with a member of the peace corps in Benin and yes, there are indeed cars in Africa. Given America's two party system it seems incredibly unlikely that all republicans are rich, and equally so that all Democrats are aethiests.

Those things considered, I place very little stock in stereotypes. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:13, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Those are bad stereotypes for the purpose of being as extremist and racist as you can be. Tell me if you've truly never met any person that doesn't fit into any tame and realistic stereotype. Example, people on the internet will blow a statement out proportion. It happens a lot. Tommyspa (talk) 02:23, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yes they were extreme. But then again you set no perameters for the extremity of the stereotype, the implication being that all stereotypes are equally valid. Also, "Always" is a pretty powerful word. That being said, I have never met a nerd with a pocket protector, and no nerd I have ever met wore glasses. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:36, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

But nerds do play video games, some obsess about fantasy worlds, it is why we are here. Tommyspa (talk) 02:40, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Some of them, yes. But is this universally true? I should hope not. Stereotypes are going to exist, and I am fine with that, my only problem with your post was the claim that they were always accurate, when this is clearly not the case. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:56, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

For clarity's sake, then. All I said was they exist for a reason and some was implied because people (and I) shouldn't actively think of the most racist or degrading things that fall under stereotypes, because at that point you're choosing to think about something you hate, so I was neglectful in not considering someone would find a hole to exploit. Some are more accurate than we'd like, not all equally valid and justified. Pushing that had to do with the barriers of electronic communication.

Edit:if this should continue, take it to my talk page, as it is completely polluting the actual topic of the thread. My bad homie. Tommyspa (talk) 03:00, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Might want to switch "always" with "mostly" or something. Other then that, I'll shut up. Sincere apologies to anyone who takes offense at this digression. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 03:32, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm just curious as to how she could be there in the first place. She's a warrior and according to Sten in DA:O "women are articens, farmers, or merchants. They are not warriors". So my question is how did Talis come to exist in the first place? She says Salit trained her, but if he was a follower of the Qun (which we assume he was until he betrayed them) why would he take a woman as an apprentice? Was that one of his acts of defiance? And why would the others accept her? I'm SO confused. I don't really like or dislike the MotA DLC, but I would've liked it more if there was a different character as the focus of the story. She had a few good lines, but I found it hard to really connect with her as a companion. Even if we were given more time to get to know her, I don't think I would've tried to. She wasn't important enough to me i guess. If anyone has any answers to my questions, please post them. I haven't watched the web series or read anything, so my knowledge is limited to the games. ThanksDevilkat (talk) 05:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

If your interested some details on the female thingy is in this thread. Tommyspa (talk) 05:18, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

ThanksDevilkat (talk) 06:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I like Day and have no real hositility toward Talis, but i see the reason for dislike.

Firstly if you want to present Qunari in a new light, well Bioware already did that with the Arishok. He was an interesting character and he, unlike Talis, believed what he was talking about and was even elequent enough to make you understand his distant for Kirkwall's corruption. Tallis preachs Qunari beliefs like gosspil but has doubts herself, how hypocritical is that? You aren't sure if you believe in this yet you are comfortable in killing people for it? She flirts as if it is character building but we still no nothing about her apart for her using her hard past as an escuse for being a generally difficult person. In Redemption, she kills a defenseless man (no Bioware showing the man be mean to an elf and have a few elven ears as trophies is enough to justify murder), she steals money from a broken Dalish clain that was struggling as it was and threw a danger into a boys heart to prove if he was a healer or not.

There are some things to clear up: How important the Sarabas escape was to the Qunari is debatable. He was a Sarabas loose on enemy ground, the worse he could do in their eyes was corrupt an already corrupt population. They wouldnt have known about his plan at the time. Since Tallis was sent in as a test more then a real mission, it does not seem like a mission of great importance. Her second mission was her own choice, as the Ariqun did not care.

I dont really mind the alterations to lore since it makes it clear that for all their claims, the Qunari are capable of bending or breaking their own rules. No matter how fanatically religous a group is, they need to bend certain rules to adapt and survive, not to mention the Qunari are a practical people so are problably more comfortable with what seems to be hypocritical then the Chantry is. --121.220.47.196 (talk) 09:44, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

"A loyal, devoted fan" who showed remarkably poor writing and acting abilities, not to mention the lack of common sense when boasting how well versed in lore she supposedly was, gets into the game a cliched Mary Sue character, whose very existence has to be complicatedly explained not to contradict the game lore, and all this with an overhype of Felicia Day squeeeal being stuffed down our throats. Oh, my, what could POSSIBLY go wrong here. Yeah, totally jealous, I am. --Ygrain (talk) 08:28, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, cause everyone has acting chops. NwolC (talk) 09:10, December 4, 2011 (UTC) nwolC

"Oh, this random fan was chosen to act in a DLC, how awesome! What do you mean she can't act??? Not everyone can act y'know! You can't fault her for that!"

You do realize you just admitted Day was chosen because she's "popular" rather than because she's a decent actress don't you? That's part of the reason people have a problem with the Tallis character. She wasn't introduced because she's a good character, but because Bioware hoped to make money off of *lookit Felicia Day!* You'll probably categorize everything I say as "haters gonna hate" (if you want to provoke intelligent debate that's not something to put in the opening post, just saying). But I'd just like to point out that I'd never heard of Day before playing through the DLC. I started playing with no expectations whatsoever and came out of it thinking it was terrible all on my own. Whereas I love the fanmade Quests & Legends, Ser Gilmore, and Dark Times mods for DAO. So apparently Bioware and Day got something wrong in my book. 82.169.133.94 (talk) 10:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Oh believe me buddy, reading most of these posts I know posting anything intelligent will be a waste. When did I admit Day was chosen out of popularity? I said she was a loyal fan. NwolC (talk) 11:29, December 4, 2011 (UTC)nwolC

Would you please reconsider posting stuff that's offensive to other forumers? --Ygrain (talk) 14:53, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, so who is hating who now?-Algol- (talk) 16:02, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Also there is probably no one on the planet that isn't part of Dragon Age team that knows more about the Qunari than her. Tommyspa (talk) 09:20, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Then why couldn't she make a character that's NOT inconsistent with just about every piece of Qunari lore we've gathered so far? 82.169.133.94 (talk) 10:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC).

She did make a character that is consistent. Just because the source of our fore-knowledge of the Qunari has come from their army and people captured and converted/killed by the Qunari are not absolute sole proprietors of the Qun. The Arishok openly says he is no more equipped to explain a demand of the Qun than Hawke is to understand it. Kinda means Sten by association with serving under the Arishok is no more equipped to give you exact lore that isn't open to his own interpretation of it, same rule goes for the in game characters who have observed the Qunari and wrote their articles on it. You can choose to stick with what you were told once, but you are wrong for not liking how new information provides you with a misconception that another in game character has made. Tommyspa (talk) 00:22, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

This was not a case of a member of the warrior caste misunderstanding another caste. This is not an outsider applying their own prejudices when observing a different culture. This is a member of a society saying "in our society, women have access to the following roles... And they do not fight". And then what do they give us? A woman who doesn't fill any of the listed roles, and who fights. The Arishok (and I suppose by extension Sten) is not equipped to explain a demand of the Qun because he is not a philosopher/priest. This does not explain how his knowledge of Qunari society could be so limited that he doesn't know women can be warriors.

Bottom line: all of this "new information" about the Qunari was pulled out of thin air specifically to allow Tallis to exist. As if she wasn't enough of a Mary Sue all on her own. That's not my main problem with the chacter, but it is a major stumbling block for me.

Let me put it this way. If in some future DLC an Orlesian nobleman/woman is appointed the new chief advisor to the ruler of Ferelden. And all characters in-game are okay with that. And Bioware's explanation is "yes well so far we've only seen Fereldans' attitude toward Orlesians from a biased viewpoint, they don't really hate them all that much". Would you really just say "oh well, learned something new today, how cool!" ? I do realize it's Bioware's game and they can do whatever the hell they like with the lore. Still, I feel it was a poor decision on their part to overhaul Qunari lore just so they could shove the mostsuperawesomestcharactereva!!! down my throat.

Anyway, I feel like I'm back on the official WoW forums arguing about the non-existance of Draenei and/or Blood Elves. Can we just accept that some people react very poorly to retcons for the sake of popular appeal? And as one of those people I have a right to my opinion just as you have a right to yours? Kestrella (talk) 00:46, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

You cannot use the Orlesians vs Fereldens metaphor to compare the Arishok vs the Ariqun in the understanding of females who fight in Qunari society, it's doomsday speak for the sake of doomsday speak. To the Qunari females do not serve in the army, as why Sten has a problem with the wardens companions as they fight in his army. Tallis is not in the army which is why she is not considered a fighter in Qunari interpretation. If you've read Gaider's post on that topic you would have less of a negative feeling about it because everything he said on the topic makes complete sense if you let yourself feel like a bucket of lore isn't also used as a spittoon for fan intelligence. See this thread for his posts if you have not seen them before. Tommyspa (talk) 07:26, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone explained the reason for a Tallis and not an Arvaarad to be hunting Saarebas within the Redemption series? Is it ever explained why it is all but posted on a highway billboard at the end of the aforementioned film that Tallis is Tal-Vashoth at the end and then is Tallis in MoTA, an impossibility since Qunari do not reintegrate Tal-Vashoth and Redemption came first chronlogically? Is it ever explained why a Qunari is demoted to a different nature of role that is not suited to their abilities? Why does a reaver to whom "pain is nothing" feel sad about losing? One does not have to point to Sten or preexisting lore to find errors around the Tallis character, and that is the true tragedy of the being that is Tallis. (Nothing against you, Tommy, this just struck me as the most opportune place to post this.) --Isolationistmagi (talk) 21:45, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Plot hole for the sake of Tallis being useful or we simply do not know what the role "Tallis" and the Ben-Hassreth constitutes of completely, we know Arvaarad hunts the tal-vashoth and holds the leash of mages, not much of where defending the faith as watchdogs, spies and enforcers can crossover with Arvaarad's role. Perhaps there were no Arvaarad in Kirkwall or perhaps that particular captured saarebas by the chantry called for a more subtle approach because Arvaarad is pure force and the qunari are not dumb enough to bluntly strike the chantry, the only reason the Arishok attacked was because the Tome and pure frustration, not pure untainted impracticality. Felicia said that Redemption does take place before MotA, but it was also meant to be in Ferelden and was written before DA2 was ever released, so plot holes will exist. About demoting, we found out Tallis was demoted due to being a renegade it is quite literally explained in full detail in DA:R, and the Qunari don't like revelry. And reavers aren't immune to emotional pain, silly! Tallis can think about going tal-vashoth, doesn't mean she did, look at Sten, he was pretty much considering never going home and open to not killing himself for losing his sword. Would have technically made him tal-vashoth as well because he abandoned reporting in on what he was sent to do. Tommyspa (talk) 23:18, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Immune or not, a reaver is supposed to take pleasure in pain, not wallow in it. And while Tallis may not have gone Tal-Vashoth, how likely is it that she would have been kept at that rank after botching the mission upon which the permanency of her reinstatement was to be determined? Tallis and all related elements create far more plot holes than they plug, which to me is just flat out frustrating. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:58, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think the distinction between Nyree taking pleasure in physical pain and not emotional pain is the only thing keeping her human, so asking her to revel in that is also like asking her to enjoy her mother being blah blah blah by bandits, that's for lack of a better term I can't find, dumb. That said, emotional pain may drive during battle but after the battle is over should they continue angrily wallowing in it? And I suppose if you want to know more about Tallis and her deal hope for her DA3 companion appearance! And with plot holes, the ben-hassreth filled more holes than it poked from my perspective. My perspective being, it makes things more open for the future than pigeonholing the Qunari in the wrong spot. Being militant, sexist and unsympathetic creatures. Retcon or no, opening them up was needed, imo. (I notice the theme is I like things to not be emotionless and boring or overtly angry and violent, probably some deep-seated personal thing in that. Who knows?) That's what I've heard on the road anyhow, take it for what it is. Tommyspa (talk) 05:07, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

You're lacking an unfound better term? That does mean that you posess a found one right? (Just ingore that, that's just me being silly.) To answer the question posed after, no. That was my point. I wholeheartedly agree that the Qunari needed to be opened up more, but I do wish they had found a better way of doing so, and that they had not used Felicia Day as their primary selling point. I too prefer emotional depth in things, but I found the attempts at it in MoTA and Redemption decidedly sub-par. Oh well, that's my persepctive on the thing. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 12:55, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

I can at least alleviate blaming Tallis and her existence as being the source of retconning as this thread from before DA2 was ever released has some epic details on female qunari and saarebas and puts more credence to Sten's very qunari density in discussing the topic with the warden. Could have used this earlier... Tommyspa (talk) 08:32, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

I never had a problem with her existence on principle, only the way it was applied. But you are definately right. People that take Sten's word as law should read that thread. --Isolationistmagi (talk) 01:45, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

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I can see why people would get annoyed with screwing with the lore, this "Mary-Sue" thing though seems like it's over exaggerated, but it doesn't matter cause I have my answers.NwolC (talk) 11:29, December 4, 2011 (UTC)nwolC

Seeing as you kicked off this whole discussion with an apparent preconceived notion of what the 'answers' would be, I'm hardly surprised... Qalan (talk) 19:36, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

It IS possible for people to be happy for someone who got a chance to do something awesome while also being upset that they did a really crappy job with that chance. TKismyname (talk) 20:07, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Just to a reminder to everyone here to keep our forum guidelines and code of conduct in mind when posting. That includes not insulting or belittling other users. King Cousland | Talk   20:31, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

From the perspective of having just finished Katsumi's personal quest in ME2:

If I didn't already have a major problem with MotA, I sure as hell would now. They ripped off one of their own games and they're not even trying to hide it. At least that explains why Tallis didn't work as a character, she was shoe-horned into a story that doesn't belong in DA :/ Kestrella (talk) 23:08, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Kestrella, for the love of all that's holy, it's KASUMI. Katsumi is an irl ..errr.. let's just say, actress.-Algol- (talk) 23:23, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. Katsumi is one of the main characters in an anime series I watched as a kid. My fingers automatically reach for the "t" T_T Kestrella (talk) 23:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

If they did rip off ME2, one could say that Bioware has ripped off every heist story since storytelling began. And in the same way they could be accused of ripping off the tale of the hero struggling to save a kingdom from a terrible evil or the Quest for the healing relic. Like Audre Lorde said "There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." --Madasamadthing (talk) 00:05, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

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Hating Tallis does seem to be a popular thing amongst fans, as is hating DAII, but people do it for the right reasons. As it has been said multiple times over, Tallis goes against lore that has been established previously. "It is not done, there is no more to it" Sten said. This statement alone is prove enough that Tallis breaks canon in more than just one way. Laidlaw and Gaider wrote to the fans and posted something of an explanation about how she does not break existing law, but we all know that it's just a very cheap excuse to defend the character and the Webseries. So why do I hate Tallis? Because, for all her clishé-ness in character and mary sue-ness, I hate her because the writers of Dragon Age go way out of their way to defend said mary sue character. DraculaCronqvist (talk) 01:41, December 5, 2011 (UTC

LOL. The fact that anyone even thinks the Tallis hate is due to jealousy is rather... well I'm not going to say. King Cousland has already warned people about not following the wiki's code of conduct. All I will say is that whilst the webseries did grow on me, the character of Tallis is piss-poor. The fact that lore had to be changed just so her existence would make sense is pretty stupid. The mary-sueness of Tallis is like something out of bad fanfiction and the fact an entire DLC was based around this bad character says a lot of the developers and what they think their audience want. Now... I certainly don't hate Tallis. I don't see the point in hating anything in a video game as it isn't real. Everytime I see someone post "I hate the Chantry" "death to the Templars!" I can't help but laugh. However I'm just miffed with how the character was handled. There IS potential there I think, but I think Bioware placed too much faith in Felicia Day. (82.38.231.18 (talk) 01:07, December 5, 2011 (UTC))

I don't hate Tallis, simply because she's not interesting enough or important enough for me to hate. I'm disappointed in her, as both a writer and a gamer. From a writer's perspective, she's a mary-sue, and a terrible one at that. It's possible, though rare, to create a good belieavable mary-sue that people are not going to cringe at, and Tallis is not that. Tallis is hardly a character at all. She's a poorly developed plot device. She has an an inconsistent personality that no one bothers to explain, motivations that are shallow if therey are present at all, and a past, present and future that are "mysterious" to the point of irrelevancy. No one cares what happens to her, becase the developers seemed to fail to realize that to make a character mysterious you actually have to tell more rather than less. A character isn't mysterious otherwise; they are forgetable.

From a gaming perspective; she's a piss-poor companion. She is weak and ineffectual in a fight. I spent so many damn potions on her until I finally decided to just to let the dumb girl die. The importance of her role in the DLC is miniscule; she could have been taken out entirely and the DLC would have been just as meaningful, or meaningless depending on how you feel about MOTA.

So I don't hate her; I find her utterly unimportant. Which is worse, in my opinion.Rennadahsim (talk) 03:13, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

I don't actually hate Tallis. There are some moments of MoTA where she was an enjoyable character. It just pissed me off that I had to listen to her preach about the Qun, and how the human dominated world is terrible, but I never get to refute her. Pretty much the only response you get is something along the lines of "Qunari? I don't like those guys...just because!" and then more Tallis explaining to you how you just don't understand and are an intolerant jerk. The fact that I can't come back with any argument about mages, or more importantly, Qunari sacking of Kirkwall, is unacceptable. And it makes me mad enough to start to hate Tallis, but then I remember it's not really her fault. So again, I don't hate Tallis, I just think her character inspired bad writing. Or vise versa.

Oh, and as an off-topic aside; the phrase "haters gonna hate" does not actually mean that people hate for no reason. It means that there will always be somebody who doesn't like, or "hates", for absolutely anything. They very well might have a perfectly legitimate reason for their "hate". Also the phrase is often used by people to justify their own bad/rude/dickish behavior. It's way easier to tell yourself "haters gonna hate", than reevaluate your behavior. By no means am I directing this at anyone here, I just don't think the phrase is used correctly in this instance, and overall I don't think it is ever helpful to use it.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 03:24, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

To me...Talis was a kick in the Qunari crotch. Didn't like her AT ALL. SHe was just terrible. Her jokes were the only good part about her. I don't know who Felicia Day is but really? Thats just sad. I'm not ahater on most things but I hated the DLC. Legacy was great but MoTA sad faces.Galen Guerrin (talk) 05:45, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much what everyone else said. She is a Mary Sue and a completely uninteresting character which for me doesn't really fit into the world and the story. I don't mind them taking liberty with the lore, but the liberty with which Tallis is created is blown out of proportion. Also, the main thing which I dislike is that she was practically showed down our throats by developers, and they assumed there is only one way you can feel about her - love her. You can't disagree with her without sounding like an ignorant ass, you can't send her away and you surely can't kill her (you can kill pretty much all of your companions in some way). There were many celebrities which were introduced in ME2 but their introduction was so subtle, you were just pleasantly surprised when you heard/saw them. I love Miranda for example. But boring Tallis just falls on your head like a brick screaming "love me", or it is assumed by default that you would. --Ascendra (talk) 06:32, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the discrepancy between the Sten-based and Tallis-based lore: I don’t think that the main problem here is the discrepancy itself but the way it was presented. Developing on or modifying already existing lore should definitely be self-explanatory, not needing elaborate constructs on English semantics. – Take e.g. Babylon 5: from the very beginning, the Minbari are presented as a very rigid society, living and dying by the code, and it is stressed every now and then that 1) Minbari do not lie, and 2) Minbai do not kill Minbari. Yet, as the show proceeds, we see practically every rule broken: Delenn, maneuvering both within and outside the boundaries of the conduct (she buys the Earth newspapers, to know which things she is not supposed to know); the growing discontent of the warrior caste, leading to the disbalance in the Grey Council, up till the outbreak of the civil war. _Nothing_ ever comes out of a blue sky without a proper explanation, given right in the show, without Strazcynski commenting on it afterwards. The ”Minbari do not lie” part is probably the best illustration how things can be done to break the rules and yet be consistent with the lore – when Sheridan is accused of murder and the only evidence is a Minbari witness, there is a reference to a subplot of an episode way earlier in the show, where we could see that Minbari _can_ lie to protect somebody else’s honour, since this is not perceived as dishonourable conduct.

Now, back to Sten. Nothing in his dialogues suggests poor grasp of concepts. He has acquired the level of fluency of a native speaker, and while he may occasionally have a problem with idioms, slang or cultural references he is not familiar with, it’s not very probable that he would not perceive the difference between the various concepts of the word “fight”. Even if he did have this problem at the beginning of the game, by its end he would have known, and definitely commented on it. If a person is able to reach such a level of fluency, there’s no way they wouldn’t be able to grasp subtle meanings behind commonly used words. Therefore, I must conclude that at the time when Sten’s dialogues were written, there was no concept of fighting female Qunari and it came only as an afterthought. An afterthought which does not fit with the previous information, has no base in previous information, and needs to be explained by the devs, instead of being presented in the game lore itself, is called a retcon, right?

Now, as to retconning itself: Bioware may retcon night and day as they wish, as long as they do so in an intelligent fashion and don’t try to look immaculate at the players’ expense. Is it really such a problem to say “At the time when we were working on Sten, we weren’t sure if there ever would be a sequel and didn’t develop a detailed description of the Qunari society. Later on, when DA2 had a go, we found the “no-female-fighting” too restrictive, since even in the most rigid societies, there are always options for tweaking the rules to create something not entirely standard. So, we tried to come up with a way that would allow us to create a female character that follows the Qun but still is trained to fight.” Wouldn’t it be way better than “you guys don’t get it” approach, to honourably admit that they didn’t think of every possible detail?--Ygrain (talk) 07:50, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I've argued this point before, and people on the other side of the argument tend to say things like "Sten doesn't know everything" etc. But to me, it wasn't that big of a deal that they retconned Qunari society to include women who fought in some capacity, but that Laidlaw (or Gaider, I can't remember which) would not really admit to changing their story. To me it felt very condescending. Like, "No, we didn't change anything, you just didn't get it." And as someone who has really enjoyed the lore of this series that the worst part.--Liam Sionnach (talk) 19:52, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Tallis. An entire DLC all devoted to her. Or rather, to Felicia Day. They weren't even hiding it, the developers - everything related to this DLC was pretty much marked with 'Starring Felicia Day!'.

Well, to be honest, she and what she does is mostly beyound the boundaries of my interest. I'm not following Redemption, I've only played MotA, and that was because it was a DA2 DLC and not because of her. I picked up a case of hype aversion while waiting for it, because of how Felicia Day's name was blared out so much. I approached the DLC without any mixed feelings, however, and with a pretty neutral stance. How I understood it all is that the developers and Felicia Day could benefit each other, by additional fame and ascendant fangirl status, and a premade plot, respectively.

My reception of the DLC is, however, quite mixed. I've probably talked about it earlier, but if it is different here, it's because of more time for analysis. I like the gameplay additions, such as not having to butcher roof-leaping waves of enemies all the time and being able to sneak by, some of the music, the improved models (especially clothing) and the humorous moments with Tallis. I don't like, however, the plot itself. It seems weak, even for DA2. Most of all, I do not like Tallis as a character in the game universe. Now, I don't loathe her, but the amount of failings she has, to my eye, outweighs the good sides.

My dislike of her stems, largely, from my time spent roleplaying. She is, by and large, a self-insert, a Mary Sue-class one. Now, she's by far not the worst one, I've seen - and even made - worse, but this does not absolve her. She earns this status by bending the as-of-now established laws of the destination universe in order to exist there, which is an automatic Mary Sue qualifier. She adds to this factor through both having and causing discrepancies.The Ranged Man (talk) 16:11, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

There was an opinion above, that Tallis is weak and inefficient in a fight. I so-o-o disagree! Her "Infiltrator" specialization was extremely useful in taking down bosses, especially spellcasters, making a battle with a Sky Horror a routine, but an easy one, and dispatching velghastrials in seconds. The setback is that she doesn't benefit from the dual-wielding branch, but having "Twin Fangs" in addition to Infiltrator talents would be a bit overpowered. Actually, I would be happy to play the whole game with her to deploy some interesting tactics in certain fights, and also try her in battle with her armor upgraded, but unfortunately I don't have that option. I'd happily trade her for Sebastian, because this guy is as annoying (if not more), AND completely useless in battle, because Varric is far superior archer. Well, crossbowman, technically. Or should I say "crossbowdwarf".-Algol- (talk) 23:04, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Ms. Day, she also played a companion in Fallout: New Vegas and she did a fine job in that role. The problem is not Ms. Day but the way her character and role were handled. Wsowen02 (talk) 01:25, December 6, 2011 (UTC)