Forums: Index > Game Discussion > Brave, brave, brave Ser Jory!
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So the discussion before about whether or not Duncan was a jerk got me thinking about poor dead Ser Jory. While I myself called him a coward in that thread, I think that may actually be a little unfair to the man. A little unfair, I say again. The very fact that the man feels moved to proclaim "I am no coward, but..." doesn't speak very well in his favor. Methinks he doth protest too much and all. First Jory whines about hunting darkspawn in the dangerous wilderness, and then he whines about the Joining ritual, even before he sees what is involved. He's definitely not a fearless knight of Ferelden.

Thing is, just because you feel fear doesn't make you a coward. For all his complaining, Jory didn't try to run away when it came time to fight. Once it became clear that the others were determined to proceed, Jory was in there chopping up darkspawn with the best of them. By the time the party meets up with Morrigan and Flemeth Jory has mustered enough courage that he acts quite a lot braver in front of the witches than Daveth does. That right there is Jory's chance to say "shut up" to the guy who's being a big wuss at the moment.

Unfortunately it doesn't last. Next thing you know Jory is mumbling about how he doesn't like the secrecy of the Joining ritual. In my opinion it first becomes really clear that Jory would never be a good Grey Warden when he questions whether it would be worth it to "sacrifice" the new recruits in order to stop the Blight. Daveth insists that it would be, and perhaps he's right... being a Grey Warden is all about sacrifice, after all. And Ser Jory proves pretty quickly that he isn't able to handle the concept.

Then came the Joining itself, and the events leading up to Jory's death.

1) Jory gets increasingly panicked at the thought of drinking darkspawn blood. 2) Daveth drinks and dies instantly, which admittedly does not present the best possible argument for Jory to drink. 3) Jory refuses to drink. He instead draws his sword and protests, while backing away as if to leave. 4) Duncan (walking after him while still holding the goblet) reminds him that there is no turning back. 5) Jory refuses again, continuing to back away with his sword drawn. 6) Duncan draws his own sword and advances. 7) Jory actually strikes the first blow, attacking Duncan. 8) Duncan parries and stabs Ser Jory to death. "I am sorry," he says.

Was Ser Jory's death necessary? Duncan clearly thought it was. It seems clear that there was no way Jory was going through with the Joining ritual. Left to his own devices, Jory would have left peacefully without fighting. When he saw that Duncan would kill him rather than let him go, though, Ser Jory showed he was prepared to use violence in order to escape without drinking from the goblet.

And if Ser Jory had been allowed to leave, what then? Would he have just slunk away back to his wife and unborn child, thankful to still be alive? Maybe. Or maybe he would have run around the army camp telling everyone that the Grey Wardens force their recruits to drink poisonous darkspawn blood. God knows what would have happened then. Even if Jory caused the Wardens no immediate problems, could he have been depended on to keep their terrible secret? As Daveth speculates, and Riordan later confirms, nobody would want to become a Warden if they knew just how great the risk and the sacrifice involved. And Thedas needs Grey Wardens, especially during a Blight, because otherwise the darkspawn will just plain kill everybody.

But back to the subject of Ser Jory. Playing the game, I knew all along that he was going to die. His constant mentions of his wife and how she was with child were a total giveaway (Lethal Family Photo is what TV tropes calls it, I believe). Still, I was shocked that it was Duncan who killed him. And in the end, though I can see why Duncan felt he had to kill the man, I still find Ser Jory's death regrettable. Duncan was probably mistaken in recruiting the man in the first place. If it wasn't for the sad events at the Joining ritual, Ser Jory might have fought the darkspawn bravely enough in the king's army. He still probably would have died, of course, but at least he wouldn't have gone out like such a putz.

Long story short, for me the ignominious death of Ser Jory, who had dreamed since childhood of joining the Grey Wardens, is one of those many small, sad moments in DAO that make the whole experience bittersweet. Unlike the late Arl Howe, Ser Jory deserved more.--DarkAger (talk) 19:58, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

To honor him at least a bit, we should have the choice of going after his wife to give her the news (and lying about his death, saing how honored it was, or humilliating her somehow), even if only in the Epilogue. That would be a way of making his death a fair thing. The Bard From Hell (talk) 20:26, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

A most thoughtful and reasonable analysis.

I would disagree only with your statement of facts, number 7, particularly as to the meaning of "blow" and "attack". In particular, you say, "Jory actually strikes the first blow, attacking Duncan." If I recall the situation, Jory is standing with his sword pointed upwardly. Duncan draws his dagger; orients his dagger directly at Jory; and moves his dagger towards towards Jory's chest in an apparent attempt to insert his dagger into Jory's chest. Jory then strikes at Duncan's dagger; hits Duncan's dagger with his sword thereby successfully changing the direction of the dagger's movement so that it is no longer moving in a direction to penetrate Jory's chest.

It seems to me that "blow" in the context of a fight would normally mean one fighter contacting some portion of the other fighter's body. I don't think Jory's sword actually contacted Duncan's body. Similarly, I would expect the term, "attack", used in the context of a fight, to mean an attempt to forcefully contact some portion of the other fighter's body. Here again, I don't think that Jory was attempting to contact Duncan's body. More specifically, I don't think Jory was trying to harm Duncan, even though Duncan was clearly trying to harm Jory.

In my view, if you use the term "attack" according to its normal meaning, Duncan attacked Jory first. If you use the legal term, "assault" (causing someone else to fear imminent bodily harm), Duncan was the first to assault.

Duncan's "I am sorry." is a little reminiscent of breaking up with Morrigan. When the PC tells her, "I'm sorry.", Morrigan responds, "Not sorry enough, it would seem.".

Great thoughts and analysis. WarPaint (talk) 21:48, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

After watching that moment in the Joining cutscene on youtube several more times, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree, since I'm still pretty sure my characterization of that moment is accurate. The whole thing happens very quickly, and Duncan's body is blocking some of what he's doing with his sword, so I suppose it's impossible to be absolutely positively certain what's going on. Still, to me it looks like Duncan is getting into position to stab, yes... and at the same time Jory is drawing back his sword to slash. At the moment of the parry in question, Duncan is actually jerking his body back away from Jory, as Jory's sword comes slashing at his left side... not his right where Duncan's sword is. Meanwhile Duncan was pulling his sword back, too, to block Jory's swing. Meaning that while Duncan was most definitely trying to kill Jory, Jory was quite willing to kill Duncan if that's what it took to get away.
To me the very fact that Jory drew his sword at all meant that he was ready to fight, to kill if necessary, if that's what it took to get out of the Joining. He could just as easily have turned around and walked (or run) away while Duncan was still standing there with the goblet. He might actually have had a better chance of surviving that way, since it would have meant that Duncan would have to outrun him and then stab him in the back, before Ser Jory could reach the relative safety of the main camp. I'm not even sure that Duncan would have been cold enough to actually kill him in that case... though he would certainly have dragged Jory back to the Joining. Maybe he would have had Alistair and the Warden sit on him while he poured the contents of the Joining Goblet down his throat. Though I guess that would have detracted from the somber tone of the moment...--DarkAger (talk) 22:20, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
I looked again also. I have no quarrel with your current characterization of Jory's sword movement as a "parry". The fact is that Jory struck Duncan's dagger. Duncan's dagger was not positioned to protect Duncan or any part of Duncan's body. Jory was clearly blocking Duncan's attack and not vice versa. As to whether Jory was wise to have drawn his sword, and whether he could have walked away, you are correct, but that is beyond the issues raised by your statement of facts; namely, who attacked first? Clearly it was Duncan who attacked first although Jory did successfully parry that first attack. WarPaint (talk) 22:56, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid you mistake me. By no means did I change my characterization of what Jory did. I meant that Duncan was parrying, not Jory. As I said above, 1) I stand by my assertion that Jory attacked first, and 2) we are going to have to agree to disagree.--DarkAger (talk) 23:40, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
And I suggest you look again. Duncan moves towards Jory first. Perhaps you missed that. Jory does not pull his sword back until after Duncan starts moving both his dagger and body directly at Jory. Did you think Duncan was moving both his body and dagger forward towards Jory to shake his hand or something?? And speaking of walking away, the two wouldn't have even crossed swords to begin with if Duncan had not moved towards Jory with outdrawn dagger. Claim what you want but the video speaks for itself. Duncan attacks first.
What I agree to, btw, is that you disagree with the video.WarPaint (talk) 00:01, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Now I want to be as civil as possible about this, but I do have to point out that I have said written these same words three times now, and so I am bolding them for emphasis: We are going to have to agree to disagree. In case there was some misunderstanding, what I meant to indicate by that was, "I understand your position, but I respectfully disagree, and since I consider this to be a matter of subjective opinion I am uninterested in any further efforts on your part to persuade me." In my posts above I already have described that I believe Duncan to be doing, and what I believe his intentions were toward Jory, as well as what I believe Jory's intentions to be toward Duncan. Therefore I have nothing more to say about the matter. You may certainly have the final words on the "who struck first" debate, if that will make you happy. Please be advised, however, that I cannot promise to actually read them, since I consider this topic to be exhausted. In short: I'm done here. I hope we'll speak again sometime on some other subject. Until then, good-bye.--DarkAger (talk) 00:54, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Just so that you understand, I don't believe anyone has an obligation to enter into an agreement with someone they believe to be taking an unreasonable position. And I will also repeat again that the video speaks for itself. WarPaint (talk) 01:16, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I just made a comment about this here As a summery. Jory's death was political to keep the order safe and 2nd the wardens are not truly needed, we only need them for one small detail as refered to in the other tread.

To what you said about Jory's intentions if were allowed to walk free, scared out of his wits he would properly run straight home to his wife in Highever, cursing the wardens and calling them God knows what on the way to everyone that heard him. The question is of course how much that would truly hurt the wardens. One madman's rambling, the wardens were called demon worshippers and other nasty things even without him. It wouldn't even be worth Loghains trouble to find Ser Jory he can start plenty of lose rumours without him.

Trust me, many people say that Nestle uses slave labour at their cacao farms in Latin America, does it hurt their sale? not particularly. Some persons listen to rumours others let reason guide, in the end that's all that really matters.-rphb- (talk) 22:09, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

Jory's death was most definitely to keep the Grey Wardens safe. Whether killing Jory was absolutely necessary is debatable, but a strong argument can be made either way. As for the necessity of Wardens, so long as there are still surviving Old Gods around, that is not up for debate. NO WARDENS = EVERYBODY DIES. That is established canon. Once the last of the Archdemons is disposed of, then the Grey Wardens may no longer be necessary. Admittedly, of course, the existence of the Grey Wardens is a lot less important when there is no Blight currently going on. Even then, though, they're still useful for mopping up roaming darkspawn and such.--DarkAger (talk) 22:28, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

@-rphb- You say the Grey Wardens arent really needed and then you say they are needed for one small detail, is that not a contradiction?--Gdubs (talk) 22:27, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

There is no contradiction there if you look at the full explanation in that other thread. The Grey Wardens are only necessary because they are the only organization with a method to destroy an Archdemon. If this information were made common knowledge then other groups (like the various nations, the Chantry, or even the Circle of Magi) could create their own warriors with similar capabilities. All of the Grey Warden's power is rooted in keeping their method a secret. In this way the group itself isn't necessary, only their method is. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 01:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Jory could have backed out before even stepping into Ostagar, he could have refused the invitation to join, but he did not because of his dream since childhood of joining the Grey Wardens. He wanted they glory of being a Gray Warden, but non of the risk involved in becoming one. And he was a coward, I say this because he chose to fight rather than honor his wife and unborn child by trying to be a Gray Warden. His death is his own fault not Duncan's, Jory drew his weapon first not Duncan, this was a clear message to all he was going to kill anyone who came near him. Duncan did what he felt he had to do for the Orders sake. Jory should have been "MAN" enough to honor himself, family and Duncan and drank the Blood. Is this harsh? Maybe, but when one joins a military force and yes the Gray Wardens are a military force, there are sacrifices one makes. Remember "LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS" and if Jory would have been allowed to leave after learning what the Joining entails, that is what would have happened to the Gray Wardens, they would have been forced out of Ferelad and most likely every other Kingdom in Thedas. Then where would the known world be? Anya (talk)00:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I speak only for myself, but I've said before and will say again, my disagreement with Duncan is that he didn't try reasoning with Jory before moving to execute him. I don't even disagree that Jory was wrong. I simply believe that Duncan could have attempted to reason with Jory without putting anyone in danger, or the Warden's secrets in danger. Duncan could still have executed Jory if his attempts at reasoning failed. He could have defended himself if Jory attacked him. I'm not a great believer in "shoot first, talk later" (or stab first, talk later, as the case may be), unless the situation actually demands that be done, i.e., someone who is being attacked or who reasonably believes they are being attacked is fully entitled to skip the negotiation phase and use immediate force to stop the attack. Even though Jory was wrong, that didn't absolve Duncan's obligation to act reasonably under the circumstances. WarPaint (talk) 00:48, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thedas could survive without the Wardens so long as the method to kill an Archdemon survives. The group itself is not necessary only their methods. So long as the method survives and a the need persists then some other group will rise up to take on the task. Ideally more than one group would rise up but it would all depend on how the knowledge was dispersed.

When I saw Ser Jory draw his sword it looked more like an animal baring it's teeth. He was like a scared mouse backed into a corner by a viper. The man had no actual chance against Duncan, his only hope upon drawing the sword would have been that Duncan would over estimate his strength and take a few steps back. Sadly Duncan called his bluff and killed him immediately rather than seeking alternatives like he should have. If Jory was holding a crossbow or something it might have been different but all he had was a sword. Duncan could have backed out of melee range and tried to talk him down. It's like how in real life cops will try to talk down a person with a melee weapon (well, before they had tazers at least) but will just shoot the guy with the gun.

I also doubt that Jory could have left before going to Ostagar if he felt like it. Even if it was all voluntary at first you can be sure Duncan would have invoked the Right of Conscription on him if he tried to back out the same way he did to any PC who tried to refuse his "most generous offer". Based on what happens in game, when Duncan invites someone to join the Wardens it's not actually an invitation. Duncan only presents the illusion of choice in the matter, if the individual agrees to join that's all well and good but they can't actually refuse.

Picture a man openly carrying a gun who asks you to come with him. You can refuse to go with him, but if you do he will just pull out the gun and insist that you do. If you continue to refuse he'll just kill you. In the end your only choices are to go with the man or die. In case it's not clear, in this metaphor Duncan is the man with the gun and the gun is the Right of Conscription. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 02:00, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

The Grey Wardens are a brotherhood devoted exclusively to killing darkspawn. In their own minds, they're the best equipped to do so. Considering that they're the only ones on record as having ever defeated a Blight, and that it's been hundreds of years and yet no one else has figured out an alternative, Warden-free method for killing Archdemons, they just may be right. In any case it seems unlikely that the will or the ability to replace them exists in Thedas. Besides, the good people in Thedas suck at Blight-preparedness, considering how they keep declaring the darkspawn extinct between Blights.
As for Duncan and his recruiting habits, Blight. Serious Business. End of the World. Whatever it Takes. Hasn't this argument already been had a on this wiki very recently?--DarkAger (talk) 03:47, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ugh... I've been apart of this wiki for three days and I'm already sick of these Duncan forums. Well back on topic, Jory's death was necessary. Besides the man was fool for pulling a sword against the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. Besides it's completely obvious Jory wouldn't have survived the real joining in the first place.TheMinority (talk) 04:11, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

@Aedan Cousland & @-rphb- I'm starting to come around to your view that something is wrong with the Wardens as an organization. I think there must be something hidden at the Weisshaupt Fortress that will be revealed in future installments. You guys have been harping on the "secrecy" involved with the Wardens' ritual and how that is clearly unnecessary. It just struck me that The Legion of the Dead is proof positive that you are right. Members of the Legion knowingly swear to sacrifice their own lives to fight the Darkspawn. The existence of the Legion and their oath of death completely undercuts the Wardens' claims as to the necessity of secrecy.

Interestingly, the same writers who conceived of the Wardens' ritual, and the requirement that its effects be kept secret, also conceived of The Legion of the Dead. Certainly they must be aware of the obvious conflict here. Those same writers have told us of the Weisshaupt Fortress, but virtually nothing about it. That suggests to me that more will be revealed about Weisshaupt, including some possible secrets.

What secrets? Well, there is apparently some connection between the Chantry and how the old gods/Darkspawn Archdemons came about to begin with. Perhaps there is a Chantry/Warden connection. Perhaps there is another way to defeat Archdemons; or perhaps defeating Archdemons isn't truly a necessary element of stopping a blight. I think there has to be a reason for the Warden secrecy, probably hidden away at Weisshaupt, that presents a great threat to a significant power structure in the lands of Thedas. WarPaint (talk) 05:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly and my rambling in the other tread wasn’t exactly that either. Remember your Gruk “Ham der kun tar spøg for spøg og Alvor kun alvorligt, han og hun har faktisk fattet bægge dele lige dårligt.”
Translated it goes somewhat like this:”One who just takes jokes for jokes and gravity always serious, he and she have understood both of them as badly.” Forgive me if it doesn’t rime, it is difficult to translate a rime but Piet Hein had many good ones.
My point being that putting your trust into secret organization with occult rituals and lore is never a good thing. Anya may be totally in love with the wardens but I think I understand Loghain better then most. The more times I play it, the more times it becomes clear that Loghain was right in his distrust to the wardens.
It is difficult to see the truth when the truth is contrary to your own position. Just as Bhelen’s actions would seem wrong and worthy of a vendetta from a dwarf noble perspective, everything he does is none the less for the better of Orzammar. He was the only one that had the vision to truly see what was needed to get rid of the oligarchy who prevented Orzammar from moving forward.
The wardens are hiding something, more then we have seen as yet, you may think that Thedas would be screwed if they turned ageist the wardens, but this is exactly the fear that gives the wardens their power. They are not needed Anya, only the secret that they greedily hoard is.
I think we will see great development in this story in DA2, and I bet that DA3 will take place at least in part in the Anderfels In this game we will be an enemy of the wardens, possibly a qunari, and it is my hope that we will finally get to destroy this evil order and give their secrets to its true owners, the people of thedas.-rphb- (talk) 16:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
"It is difficult to see the truth when the truth is contrary to your own position." Which may equally well explain your infatuation with Loghain and your suspicion about the Grey Wardens. Frankly, I think that yours is just another of the many crackpot fan theories we see on this wiki that have little basis in the actual game. But hey, don't mind me, I'm just waiting around until after Witch Hunt comes out so I can start spamming the forum with my own absurd pet theories concerning Morrigan.--DarkAger (talk) 18:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
And as part of your posts you can "agree to disagree" with everyone. And even when others are willing to discuss issues and consider your views, you can dictate to them that they are going to have to also refuse to consider anything you say so that you can have an "agreement to disagree" (agreements require two parties after all). WarPaint (talk) 18:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with rphb on the fact that the Grey Wardens are hiding something. But i seriously doubt they are evil. They don't seem like they are hell-bent on taking over the world. I don't know but we'll find out one day. Or not, let's just see what bioware has in store for us.TheMinority (talk) 17:34, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

"give their secrets to its true owners, the people of thedas" - I suggest that we, people of Earth, are given that which we are the true owners of - the nuclear bomb. Still sure this is such a great idea? - But you are joking again, aren't you :-)) Making fun of us all here as a part of practice for philosophical disputations, aren't you? :-))) Ygrain (talk) 17:57, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I will never tell. But seriously, the nuclear bomb is not a secret it's a weapon, the analogy is flawed. And avr when I say "evil" you should know what I mean. I could tell you, but I wont because I am evil bhahaha-ha.-rphb- (talk) 20:39, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I know the subject has changed, but look at the video where Duncan kills Jory. After he kills him, the dagger literally vanishes from Duncan's hand. That's funny. Sophirim (talk) 22:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC)Sophirim

Ok, I'll put it this way the Gray Wardens are a Military and have their secrets and so being a Military I say this about military secrets;

"A military secret is secret information that is purposely not made available to the general public and hence to any enemy, by the military in order to gain an advantage or to not reveal a weakness, avoid embarrassment or to help in propaganda efforts. Most military secrets are military in nature, such as the strengths and weaknesses of weapons systems, tactics, training methods, number and location of specific weapons and plans. Some involve information in broader areas, such as secure communications, cryptography, intelligence operations and cooperation with third-parties."

That said, we know only one aspect of what it takes to be a Gray Warden and that is drinking of Darkspawn blood. But, what else does it require? Something to do with Magic, but what Magic? Is it your normal run of the mill Magic or is Blood Magic involved? If it Blood Magic then the Chantry would have a fit and most likely try and call for an Exalted March against the Gray Wardens. Also, how many people would want something to do with Blood Magic? Not many I can tell you. I believe it does have something to do with Blood Magic and that is why it is a secret. Releasing this information to the general populace is a very bad idea, just think about it for a moment. You would have everyone and their mother drinking Darkspawn blood after seeking out a Blood Mage (Of course this would be a boon for Blood Mages out to make a few coin.), but can the Blood Mage be truly trusted? Just food for thought. Anya (talk)01:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

The Chantry already makes use of blood magic with their phylacteries (mage leashes). I'm sure they could be made to understand the necessity of blood magic in the Joining. Also why would everyone an their mother be seeking out blood mages again? The Joining kills all but the strongest of individuals and only gives one the ability to kill an Archdemon and little else of benefit.
I should also point out that the Grey Wardens are not a national military as they are not beholden to any individual nation. That said they're also not a mercenary military since they don't sell their services to anyone. They aren't entitled to protection of their secrets for military purposes. Grey Wardens seem to enjoy a degree of governmental protection across Thedas, yet their is no known outside body working to ensure that they don't abuse those protections. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 02:14, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

As far as Ser Jory is concerned he was setup to fail. From the minute your character meets him, he actually begins whining about the ritual. The next time is when you are in the wilds. He whines about being out there and facing darkspawn without a company at his back. The when you meet Morrigan he whines about the temperture. He complains at the actual joining itself. When you follow the conversation thread prior to starting the Joining at Duncan's fire, you can see that Duncan tells them from that point forward they have no choice. Whether conscripted or volunteer you no longer have a choice at his point. You are here and that is that.

As far as the Wardens not being needed. That is part of what led to them being outlawed. The rebellion was the other half, but a majority of the nobles forgot why they were supporting the Wardens. It is not that they only needed one to kill the Archdemon, only one would need to make the killing blow and take the old god soul into them and distroy it. Otherwise it would jump into a darkspawn and survive. LostInFangorn (talk) 03:58, September 8, 2010 (UTC)LiF

Some would wonder why it was that Duncan decided to make Jory a Grey warden in the first place even though he was a whiny baby - The last Warden

The Bann of Highever (being one of the vassals of Teyrn Cousland) held a tournament to honor the Grey Wardens and Ser Jory was the victor (where exactly the HN was during all this is never made clear). This is similar to how Alistair was apparently recruited, though that tournament was thrown by the Templars in Denerim and Alistair didn't actually win. If I'm not mistaken Ser Jory actually said he won the Grand Melee, if so one must wonder if the writers know what a melee actually is. The flaws in Ser Jory's personality likely didn't become apparent until later on. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 08:04, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
I think we are all judging Ser Jory too hard. Imagine how you would feel if you were in his place. You grow up in the peaceful town of Highever. Being part of the Bann's military from a young age where you fought bandits and other highwaymen, getting quite good at it, but never actually fighting anything but a human, or the occasional wolfs or giant spiders.
You met a girl that was impressed with your bravery and skill and you got married. Then there was this tournament to honour the Gray Warden Duncan, and you saw in him your childhood hero. The Gray wardens were legendary and their tales of glory had inspired you from you were a little kid.
In highever you had reached the pick of your glory, but with Duncan and the Gray warden you could rise to epic proportions; becoming a true hero, and not just a good soldier of Highever. You wanted more, and were confident in your abilities from the countless bandits you had defeated. You fight the best you have learned in the tournament and win it, with your wife cheering at the side calling you her hero.
Then as Duncan congratulates you, he ask you you to join the Gray warden, your childhood dream, your beaming with pride as you accept, and promise your wife that you will return, as soon as you have defeated the blight. As you journey to Ostegar you feel like you can take on the archdemon and all of its horde all by yourself.
Then you arrive and you find out that there is more to being a grey warden. You feel like you have already proven yourself and now, for the first time he mentions that there is more, that there is this “joining” you must take.
You met with a disgusting thief and an overly cocky recruit and are then tolled to go out in the wilds, behind enemy lines, alone with these two and a dim-witted junior warden that you half expect to fall on his own blade.
It is then you see it, for the first time, what a darkspawn is truly like. Fighting bandits is one thing, you can understand them, but this, this is something completely different a completely monstrous creature that wants nothing but death. This was the first time you new true fear. Once you and your group had been ambushed by spiders but they attacked you for food, and once they saw that the battle was hopeless they redraw; but these creatures, they don’t care about life, they don’t care if they die, they just wants death.
Wouldn’t you be afraid?
Afghanistan have ruined many men, and there it is only people we fight, imagine what you would feel, if you stood face to face, with a true monster.-rphb- (talk) 09:00, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
That was a brilliant piece of psychology; pity you did not do the same for the "dim-witted" Chantry boy who grew up in quite a protected environment and must have had much less real-fight experience than Jory, yet coped much better. As for the Daveth-Jory moment, I always thought it a nice irony that a petty street thief had a better understanding of duty and sacrifice than a knight. - Not saying by this all that Jory was a bad man just because he was afraid; the problem is that if he could not master his fear now, what would he do if the situation was really serious, say, in Deep Roads ? A panic-stricken man could easily endanger the lives of his companions. That's why I consider the Joining, with all its dark atmosphhre, as a harsh test which you must pass. If the recruit is unfit, better find out now than later. Ygrain (talk) 09:25, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
I try to see how the situation is through Jory's eyes, normal persons have no idea what it means to be a gray warden, only a person what have been ruined so much that he would never be able to fit in with normal society could be a warden. you need to be a psychopath or something along that trail. Daveth knew death everyday as a thief, he had nothing to return to, neither did Alastair or the warden in any of the origins really.
Tell me in all honesty, if you had been their, at Ostegar, could you have taken everything in stride?-rphb- (talk) 11:16, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sitting here trying to figure out if I should be offended by that statement. Why exactly would a person need to be a psychopath to be a Warden? --Aedan Cousland (talk) 11:35, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Duncan choosing Ser Jory was a foolish, desperate move. Ser Jory, unlike Daveth or any of the Player Wardens, had something to lose. I got the impression Ser Jory was willing to risk his life in combat, but he wasn't used to the whole exercise of going out into the thick of an enemy army. He's a good soldier, but not experienced with special operations work that is expected of the Grey Wardens. He was chosen for combat skill, which is peripheral to the real qualification for being a Grey Warden - utter disregard for your own life. Fundamentally, Grey Wardens lack any real benefits outside of a Blight, and they are condemned to madness and death. Quite simply, you could get by with only a few Joined Wardens, and a small army of Warden-Initiates. What are Initiates for, then? Outside of a Blight, you can maintain fortresses and watchposts with them. Just having someone who is familiar with Darkspawn will help you with minor Darkspawn problems. It also gives you a place to stick the Ser Jory types who might actually want to retire from the Wardens after a long dangerous career. In a Darkspawn invasion, you have a pool of talented soldiers who can fight holding actions and raids while you pull in the treaty allies. Worse comes to worse, they can be given the Joining. That doesn't mean you can't conscript Grey Wardens for the Joining, this just means the order has another option. --OmegaPaladin (talk) 11:29, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

heard. Initiatives are important, and as shown in DA:A the majority of the wardens forces in vigils keep actually aren't wardens but just soldiers that serves the wardens. Except for your companions only the senechal are an actual warden; and I believe that this is so with many of their strongholds.
But my point with defending Jory was because he acts like most people would act, a non condemned person that have other purposes of living then simply killing darkspawn, aka almost everyone, would act like him. I just think that you are throwing rocks while you are sitting in a glasshouse that's all.-rphb- (talk) 13:03, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmm... Psychopath to be a Gray Warden?... Well I could see where that might be useful in battling Darkspawn, especially later in life when the Calling comes. But, you know psychopaths don't always play nice with others and could at any moment turn on their fellow Gray Wardens during a fight against any foe. -rphb- you ask "If you had been there, at Ostegar, could you have taken everything in stride?". My answer would be yes I could have. I could have for the simple reason of "SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT", someone has to make a sacrifice and put their life on the line, Police, Firefighters and the Military do it every day. These are not careers to be taken lightly and neither is being a Gray Warden. The vast majority of the Soldiers in Thedas would not take the Joining if they knew what was entailed in the Joining and that it would cost them any type of future, that is why it is a "SECRET", the First Gray Wardens knew this and made the hard choice of not reveal what they did to gain their insight into the Darkspawn. As for a pool of non-Gray Warden-Wardens, well that is why they Recruit or Conscript members from the Kingdoms of Thedas. It takes a long time to train someone to be a Warrior, time the Gray Wardens don't either want to take or simply because it is better to have those who are to be chosen to Join the Gray Wardens to be of diverse backgrounds of fighting techniques or it might simply be tradition, after all the First Gray Wardens were not raw Warriors, but battle harden Warriors. I an also sure that some of them dies at the First Joining. Should Ser Jory have been recruited? Yes, he proved to Duncan he was good in a fight. However, maybe Duncan should have let him go before the Joining. When he was constantly complaining, but Duncan had a "DUTY" and that duty was to stop a blight. And, duty to a Gray Warden is very important to them, so important that they will go to any lengths to achieve their goal of ending a Blight, even as far as killing to do so. Now ask yourself this, if you were the Warden Commander of your Nation and you recruited someone during a Blight and they did what Ser Jory did , especially at the Joining what would you do? Anya (talk)15:16, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Anya policemen, firefighters and military put their lives on the line each and every day? Where do you get that? It may be different where you are from, but in my country it is rare that a policemen have to draw a gun, most go through their entire career without ever doing it once. It have been at least 2 years since a policeman had to kill a man and almost a decade since the last died in duty. Fireman I have never head of dying. The point is it's a rare event and they certainly don't "put their lives on the line each and every day".
I believe around 30 of our soldiers have died in Afghanistan which is incredible high, and I have never supported our governments decision in participating in your crusade. Just let the fanatic have the country it's a pointless fight anyway, the afganians will never learn, and their future are in any case not our business.
2nd. How can you so firmly state that you wouldn't act like Ser Jory. I know you are a soldier, but I also know that you have never fought anything like a darkspawn. 1st an al qaeda terrorist is still just a man, and 2nd, you don't have to fight them. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are pure aggression wars, started by a president that thought "war is fun". If you were truly defending your nation from a treat I could understand it, but you don't, there have never been a direct treat to USA since Hitler. Yea someone "had to do it" in Thedas, but I don't think that anyone in the west can understand what that means. It is simply not the same to fight an aggression war in a superior army against a desperate and disorganized foe. -rphb- (talk) 16:01, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Fireman I have never head of dying. Are you serious? And they put their lives on the line by doing something dangerous - even potentially - everyday. At least, their chance of death is at a higher rate than say a baker or teacher. I don't think that anyone in the west can understand what that means. No, were a homogenized group, much like the Irish don't understand sobriety and the French don't understand courage. Vegnas (talk) 16:20, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Vegnas, none of us, have had our nation, our freedom and our lives threatened the way the people of Thedas has under a blight. There is no force on the face of the planet that can directly threaten us. Yea anyone could send an assassin after you but that's not the same, that's personal. Of course generalisations like the one you mentioned do not apply. I'm sure there is such a thing as an American that are not obnoxious and overweight; but that's not the same as what I said. You made an analogy and a flawed analogy instead of disputing my point directly, please refrain from using that in the future. If you disagree tell my how and why.-rphb- (talk) 16:30, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
but that's not the same as what I said. No you just said that you thought an entire people can't understand something you seem to be putting across as quite obvious. The part I disagreed with I explained why, if you're asking me to dispute broad generalizations then I'm at a loss. Vegnas (talk) 16:57, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
God that's the most I've laughed in over a month. I'm sorry but not everywhere is so safe. My father is now disabled do to an injury he sustained in the line of duty and I've personally known cops who've died in the line of duty). I lived in a ghetto for years, I've had next door neighbors shot to death. I know neighborhoods where cops refuse to get out of their cars because it's considered suicide. The city I live in was also the first one where fireman were attacked directly (guy called in a fake fire and started shooting, killed one fireman). Just yesterday a man started shooting at the hospital a friend of mine works at. I don't think I know any cops who've never drawn their gun, and I know a lot that have used theirs. Over here cops, fireman, and emts all put their lives on the line every day (yes emt's too, people attack medics). That ignorant statement just made my day, I can't even be mad about it, thank you.
As of yesterday 4,408 US Soldiers have died in Iraq and Aghanistan. I could explain the conflict in it's entirety, the motivations and strategies along with their flaws. I don't really see the point in all that though, I doubt I could change your view. --Aedan Cousland (talk) Damn edit conflicts...

just gotta say, we cant really compare the fictional wars between fictional species with war in real life, not everyone agrees with the iraq war and not everyone lives in areas with the danger you described Aedan, but ultimately, the fictional war in thedas is meant to be terrifying. to ser jory (which is what this forum is about, not iraq) the blight is the single most frightneing thing in the world, he fears that it could kill his family, but he is not willing to risk his own life for this. this is cowardice. if a man fights for his life to earn a chance to save the world, but then wont take that risk. he is being cowardly--Googlemooglemaximus (talk) 16:43, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

I don't really mind cowardice, after all who wants to lose their life, especially in such an ignoble manner. But he pretty much signed up to be a Warden and should have taken all that came with it. After all he volunteered IIRC, and perhaps he should not have let childhood fancies get in the way of rational thought. Vegnas (talk) 17:13, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Well I said my country Aedan Cousland my country. Your statement is exactly why I do not consider America to be truly civilized. It is the natural consequence of allowing every bozo to access to a firearm. If I ever got real political power my first command would be to enact universal civil disarmament, so everyone can have it as nice an cosy as we do.
Order is paramount, it is the first objective of any state and nation. Everything else is second to that. Civil liberties are only possible in a state where order have been established, in a state of emergencies and chaos, these things become irrelevant, in anarchy no one has any rights, and any state, even the cruellest dictatorship is better then that.
Allow it to evolve peacefully and it will become free with time, use force against your government and no matter its state you would only descend it towards anarchy and give the dictator the justification he needs to continue his regime, or if you succeed to recreate one even worse.
Violence never solve anything, and can't be justified-rphb- (talk) 16:52, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
@-rphb-, then thank whatever GOD or GODs you worship that the Fireman in your Country don't risk their lives putting out fires, rescuing people in all types of situations. I am glad also that your Police don't have to draw their guns when facing criminals. Now, I would like to know where this Country is so we will all know where to move to to live in this UTOPIA, because it seems your Country seems to have abolished a lot of things the rest of the world have not. But, in the rest of the world Police and Firemen put their lives on the line "EVERY DAY" in one way or another, so yes they are a kin the Gray Wardens and they live in a world where Darkspawn where they put their lives on the line to make sure everyone else is safe and don't have to worry about being over ran by the vermin. The world of the Thedas is not a "POLLYANNA" world, it is a violent world where death for you or anyone could be just around the corner. This is something some people seem to forget or choose to ignore. Again I say Ser Jory was not a coward per-say, but he was not someone who would risk his life to save another unless he had a company of Soldiers backing him up. And, to be a Gray Warden you have to be willing to sacrifice your own life to save another and that is the bottom line. So, let us let the Gray Wardens have their secrets, shall we? Ok now lets all go to the local tavern and have a few pints of Ico mug of ale AleAle
A mug of watered-down ale.
, the first round is on me... Now where did I put that bloody First Bank & Trust of Thedas credit card of mine? Anya (talk)16:56, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Whoah, whoah, let's not get out of hand here! Do I feel flames approaching? Enough of real-world politics, shall we?

- Speaking of flames: firemen may not be putting their lives on the line every single day but they MAY as well be called upon to do so, and then there's no turning back, definitely not without consequences. The main difference is that ours is a "civilized" world where life is valued considerably higher than in Jory's. This topic makes me think what I would do were I to undergo the Joining. I'd definitely be scared like hell, with the two corpses before me, but on the other hand, there are two people present who survived the drink. My chances: dead if I refuse - 100%, dead if I don't - 50%? - no, that's wrong, there are more Wardens surviving, wait, I do not know how many died in the process, so statistically... Duncan coughs politely. OK, I take the chalice, raise it to my mouth and... this is where the REAL problem starts. Mine is a sensitive stomach and the anxiety nausea I used to suffer from has unexpectedly returned, and the disgusting smell - I barely manage to throw my dinner outside that traditional and undoubtedly very revered chalice. Duncan sighs, snatches the chalice from my hands before I drop it and patiently waits till I'm done throwing and even gives me the time to wipe my mouth and compose myself. Very well, the second round... and I start retching as soon as I smell the thing. After the third attempt, Alistair looks rather embarrassed and Duncan taps his fingers on his forearm. That's the last drop. I start giggling hysterically, as I'm trying to say "Don't kill me, Duncan, I'm honestly trying!" - After which Duncan motions at Alistair to grab hold of me and pours the thing down my throat. My last thought before I pass out is that the first embrace from Alistair definitely didn't go the way I imagined. Ygrain (talk) 16:59, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Things don't always go the way we imagine them, but hey, you two can laugh about it later when you are between the bedroll. Of course then the other members of the party would hear all the racket and know what was happening in your tent. Well that is except for Sandal who would just yell "ENCHANTMENT". Anya (talk)17:14, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

International politics are such a fun subject, especially when the military is involved. While there is still a great deal I want to say I expect this thread will be closed soon enough. This whole real world military thing should be dropped by all. As for me, as much as I want too I'm not going to pour anymore more fuel on the flames. I expect if I stay in this thread I'll be getting myself banned. Defollowing. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 17:30, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Let's end the politic shall we, I also think what should be said have been said. @Anya. I don't want to share my near utopian nation, foreigners are ruining it, it belongs to my people alone, and no one else. Oh and yea we do have problems but these problem are because of the immigrants. Of course everyone wants to live here, why wouldn't they.
I don't think you would like, there is no weapons allowed, we have total civil disarmament, which is one of the key reason why we have so little violence. Policemen are the only one that are allowed to carry weapons, any weapon, this includes pepper-spray and pocket knives (with a blade longer then 7 cm).
But as I said lets drop it. You insist to your right to bear arms and that have led you to a nation like Aedan Cousland describes, we insist on the opposite which in turn have led to the opposite. All people have the right to live their lives as they want, if you want violence and death you can have it, as long as you keep it to yourself. Fighting wars elsewhere to make them have it like you do is not ideal. Enlightenment is a journey each of us must take on its own.
If you want to continue this, use my userpage.-rphb- (talk) 20:52, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jory may not be a complete coward, but his conviction does waver on impulse that tends to flight or fight. Duncan, having experienced and initiated others in the Joining, could have made the attempt to calm him, or could have judged that he would've made an unsuitable Warden. I'm not sure I buy the secrecy of the ritual as justification for killing him, but if Duncan swore an oath to uphold a tradition for it, then doing so doesn't make him a jerkass. If no such oath or tradition, then killing Jory was just as inappropriate as Jory drawing his weapon in panic. DokEnkephalin (talk) 19:40, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Alright lets let the poor man rest in peace shall we? So,

DarkAger, WarPaint, The Bard From Hell, -rphb-, Gdubs, Aedan Cousland, TheMinority, Sophirim, LostInFangorn, Ygrain, OmegaPaladin, Vegnas, DokEnkephalin, Googlemooglemaximus
here have a Ico mug of ale AleAle
A mug of watered-down ale.

Now let us all toast the brave Ser Jory who boasted he was a Knight of Highever and before that RedCliff, but when it came to being a Gray Warden he..Well did not have the right stuff. So, here's to you Jory rest in peace you will no longer have to face the Darkspawn or your wife ever again. Anya (talk)20:44, September 9, 2010 (UTC)