My first Hawke was firmly (perhaps naively) pro-mage. With my second Hawke for DA2, I tried supporting the Templars. I liked it, aside from the ending sequence. It was interesting to see some more of Meredith's motivation, and at first she even seemed a lot more reasonable than she had in my pro-Mage playthrough. But then you get to the point where you tell her that Orsino wasn't involved in Thrask's conspiracy, and it swiftly becomes clear that she's going to be insane no matter what. My final thoughts on Meredith, Orsino, and which side was "right" are as follows.

Orsino: I don't think he was a "bad" man. I think he wanted to do right by the Circle. However, he was also a man of very weak moral conviction. He didn't put much effort into avoiding temptation or encouraging other mages to do the same. I believed him when he said that he didn't know "how far Quentin had gone." Well, I sort of believed him. I don't think he knew that Quentin was a murderer but it IS pretty clear that he knew that Quentin was using highly dangerous, highly forbidden magic. And not only did he do nothing to stop Quentin (on his own, even, nevermind involving Meredith) he actually encouraged and assisted Quentin in his pursuits! Orsino isn't a Blood Mage, but he's the kind of mage who carries a hideous Blood Magic ritual with him "just in case." In the end he was a terrible leader for the mages and a stark example of exactly how even "well-intentioned" mages can go wrong.

Meredith: After playing the Templar side, I found myself seeing her as a deeply conflicted and tormented women. On the one hand, I think that her occasional claims of sympathy toward the mages are genuine. On the other hand I think that this little bit of sympathy, while real, is outweighed by her deep-seated hatred of magic and her barely-hidden desire to see all mages dead or Tranquil. In the end Meredith is a vicious, paranoid psychopath who was a complete disaster as Knight Commander and would probably have started the Mage/Templar war eventually even if Anders' act of terrorism hadn't given her the excuse she needed. Personally I dislike her intensely. Still, I think that she's a better and stronger person than Orsino was. If nothing else she did resist the call of the lyrium idol (and her own mage-hating impulses) for years on end before finally giving in. Whereas Orsino succumbed to the lure blood magic about, what, five minutes after the Templars attacked?

So who was "right"... the mages or the templars?

As has often been discussed, neither side is blameless. There are a lot of dangerous and evil mages (Quentin, Tarohne, Grace), and there are a lot of cruel and sadistic templars (Ser Alric, Ser Kerras, Ser Whatever-Her-Name-Was that tortured a Dalish child in my game and threatened worse if the Dalish didn't hand over Feynriel). Too many mages make excuses for themselves and for one another while doing things like bombing the Chantry or using Blood Magic and necromancy. On the other hand, the Templar's abuses under Meredith were obvious: she ignoring Chantry law by making Harrowed mages Tranquil, keeps mages locked in cells for little to no reason, and there are dark rumors of Templars making mage sympathizers disappear. It should be noted that it is mentioned on several quests, and by Cullen himself, that the Templars of Kirkwall have a pretty bad reputation even among the non-mage populace.

What it comes down to, for me, is this: in the end the Templar's ending amounts to taking part in an unjustified massacre of innocent mages. Even if you spare everyone that you can, that still means sending in your Hawke to kill a bunch of people who had no involvement whatsoever in Ander's terrorist act, sparing only those who actively grovel at your feet. I can't think of any moral justification for following that path. Practical justifications, yes. You could say that any mage might decide to be evil and/or get possessed... but by doing that, you're accepting that genocide is a valid answer to the mage problem. Or you could say that the Circle needs to be wiped out in order to restore order in Kirkwall, because the people will demand blood for the Chantry being destroyed... but by doing that, you're abasing yourself in order to pacify a lynch mob. Or you could say that you're just doing it so that the Templars will make you Viscount... but then, let's face it, that way you're just a self-aggrandizing bastard, now aren't you. But more importantly, you don't even get to keep your title in the end!

Basically, playing the Templar side ending just made me feel dirty. Maybe I'll like it better if I try playing a pro-Chantry mage? I don't know. I do know that next time, I'd send Anders away rather and fight him later, rather than just executing him. Anything to make sure that Sebastian isn't there at the final battle. His smarmy speech about how Elthina might still be alive if only she had supported Meredith from the beginning just made me want to throttle the man...--DarkAger (talk) 20:27, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely, both sides were guilty, even Elthina was guilty of not acting to put a stop to the violence. As for Sebastian being there I'm pretty sure he shows up no matter what as long as you have the dlc, same thing with Anders, my first play through I inadvertently helped him and the in my second I ignored him completely. He destroyed it no matter what. From what I can tell from reading the letters from the group of three that Kirkwall was always steeped in blood magic and that it has always had a greater number of mages who turned to blood magic. Most likely because of the veil being so thin, I'm certain it plays on the minds of the templars as well.Scotiej (talk) 19:50, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Elthina was way too passive for her own good. It mentioned in her codex entry that some folks were saying she had gotten too old for the job and was letting Meredith push her around. I'd say that was pretty much the case. As for Sebastian, sure he shows up, but he leaves in a huff if you don't execute Anders. Since I'm really not a Sebastian fan, I'd say "Sebastian throwing a tantrum and storming off swearing vengeance" is my preferred ending for the man.--DarkAger (talk) 20:30, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but this thread is very hard to follow. No one signed their post except for Scotiej. Hpa tqn (talk) 20:11, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

In the end it is revealed that both Orsio and Meredith were crazy. Orsino was just more subtle about it. Orsino heavily studied blood magic while supporting a serial killer. Meredith was a plain power hungry zealot whose hunger and paranoia were amplified by the idol. 77.1.177.180 (talk) 20:26, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Orsino wasn't as insane as Meredith, but the deaths of his fellow mages obviously pushed him over the edge.--Blue0212 (talk) 22:11, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to explain how one can side with the Templars without being crazy bloodthirsty mage hater. Just think about how the whole situation looks from the outside of Kirkwall.

- if the Champion sides with the mages:

Some mage blew up the Chantry (I don’t think that anyone will remember that he was an apostate – it will be important that the criminal was in fact a mage). The Rite of Annulment was invoked, but the Champion of Kirkwall supported the mages and all the Templars were killed.

- if the Champion sides with the Templars:

Some mage blew up the Chantry. The Rite of Annulment was invoked and all the mages of the Circle were killed with the help of the Champion.

That’s how my Hawke saw the situation – if he sides with the mages and kills the Templars, this will inspire all other Circles to rebel, which will lead to a global war with lots of ordinary people killed, not to mention Templars and mages. If he sides with the Templars, other Circles will see that the destruction of the Chantry was avenged and that such acts of terrorism won't be tolerated. So in this outcome a mage rebellion is much less likely to occur.

We all know that the rebellion occurs anyway, but Hawke couldn't know that at the moment. So my Hawke had to choose whether he starts a war or kills innocent mages. And he chose the latter. Flyin (talk) 22:15, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hawke was told by Orsino the fight was hopeless, and it was. Despite your efforts the Templars smashed through the Mages like a flimsy wall of straw. The rebellion in Kirkwall itself was a failure and the annulment still succeeds. However they become known as martyrs to the mages cause who are now concerned and finds a way to secretly defy the Templars. 96.49.237.190 (talk)

Right. When Germans invade Poland, logical response should be help the Germans conqure Poland because a resistance could escalate into global war. We all see how that turned out.

The thing is, what you said translates into "If Kirkwall templars cannot have free reign over mages and do whatever they want on a whim, mages will rebel and there will be world war". Because Kirkwall has the strongest templar order on Thedas, if Kirkwall templars can be defied, any templar order can. If it's free reign or war, I'll take my chances with war. Gothic90 (talk) 07:46, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

The following text is my answer to the one who didn't sign his post (about mages compared to Poland).

The thing is that your comparison is inappropriate. Poland is a country - just like any other. However, mages are different from other people - they are connected to the Fade and therefore may fall prey to demons. That is why in my opinion mages must be somehow controlled. And the Circle of Magi is one of the possible ways of such control - the one with a lot of flaws. However, I don't think that the war is an acceptable way to transform something that is not entirely bad.

Yes, the rule of templars in Kirkwall is too harsh, but it doesn't mean that all other Circles are also ruled with a rod of iron. Kirkwall templars are so powerful not only because of Meredith's stubbornness. It's also because Kirkwall is one of the worst places in Thedas for the Circle of Magi, since the Veil there is very thin (see Wikia entry "Enigma of Kirkwall"), and therefore the amount of blood mages is a lot higher there than in the other cities, and the templars are constantly fighting them and in the same time templars influence on the city is growing.

So, if you ask me how this Kirkwall templars problem should be solved, I'd say that the Circle should be moved elsewhere - in a place, where the Veil is in a good condition and a place that is distant enough from any city (so that escaped mages couldn't take hostages, effect people in a magical way and where ordinary people won't be killed during fights between templars and mages).

What should mages do in this situation to oppose templars? I'd say use peaceful measures - protests, labor strikes, hunger strikes, measures as Mahatma Gandhi used.

Because war started by mages will not only kill lots and lots of people. It will also make the ordinary people hate mages even more and will definitely destroy the system of Circles - so the mages won't be controlled in any way for a long time, and this will lead to even greater loses because of abominations. Flyin (talk) 08:18, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that I did not know how to sign.

My comparison isn't about a country or anything.

Because the logic of circle mages is: Kirkwall templars defeated. The strongest templar force on Thedas defeated. Thus the templar force of our circle could be defeated. We should break free. According to this logic, there will be war.

So, your logic behind supporting the templars has a serious flaw: in order to avoid war, we need to make sure Kirkwall templars triumph all the time. Whenever they try to do some major nasty thing to the mages such as slaughtering them for no reason, we'd better help them to make sure that nasty thing is done. When they kill all mages, what's next? The dalish clan nearby? People holding a different belief? Nobles who don't agree with them? This has very, very bad implications. I'd prefer war over this any day.

For the Ghandi part. Ghandi also said violence is better than acceptance. Situation in circle is different from that in India. India was a British colony, circle is a prison. Nonviolence method that worked well in India would probably not work well in the circle: for example, tranquil cannot choose to labor strike or fast. You can never say because they do not have a good nonviolence system, they should choose acceptance over violence. This is strictly opposite to Ghandi's movement.

Gothic90 (talk) 07:46, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

While that does seem like a reasonable interpretation of the Templar path, I'd still say it's definitely a lot less morally defensible than siding with the mages. About the equivalent of burning down Amaranthine or killing the Dalish and leaving the werewolves cursed forever. Still, maybe I'd feel less crappy going into a Templar ending with that justification behind it.

Bioware sure didn't make it easy this time around. Though I must say that deciding what to do about Anders was the harder choice for me. I spent several minutes just squinting at my screen, switching repeatedly between the "kill," "keep," and "send away" options. I'm still not sure what I'd consider the best choice for my gentle-hearted Diplomatic Hawke.--DarkAger (talk) 23:11, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't hesitate to swing the knife on Anders. Meredith was right about one thing; the people would need blood, and if I could've I would've made sacrificial lambs out of her along with Anders, and yes, even Orsino. Even playing as a mage, I didn't care about Anders' cause or the bloody mess the Circle and templars were making out of getting along, and I was extremely pissed off that I was going to lose the town I worked so hard for because one thoughtless jackass literally blew it up in my face. Observing the Viscount taught me that what the situation needed was one vicious bastard who could terrorize everyone into submission, since they obviously can't be mature enough to resolve their differences. DokEnkephalin (talk) 23:49, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

it really depends on your Hawke. With my grim, Grey Wardenish "whatever it takes" Hawkes, of course I'll kill Anders (eventually, after causing Sebastian to leave the city in tears on account of I hate his guts). But for my dovish Diplomacy Hawke... after insisting that the party spare the Idunna the murdering blood mage, Varric's brother, and Fenris' sister, would she really turn around and execute her good friend Anders, who had once saved her sister's life in the deep roads? Probably not.--DarkAger (talk) 01:14, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I've played a similar Hawke for my first run. Although I didn't spare Idunna since she tried to kill Hawke and all the sudden had an epiphany that she was doing wrong only after Anders stopped her. I was torn between mainly letting Anders go, or keeping him for Hawke since I felt like he betrayed Hawke a bit by lying to him. Additionally I felt that Elthina was as a god-mother type of relationship to Hawke which adds to the pain Hawke might be feeling. Ended up taking Anders along since this Hawke leans towards a mage sympathizer. However, omitting Hawke's character I would have personally killed him for such an act as finally snapping. Anders was losing control ever since the moment he/Justice almost slaughtered a mage in blind rage for supporting templars. And I can't imagine him ever getting any better from it. --Lord0din69 (talk) 07:11, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be cool if you could become the Knight-Commander of Kirkwall by siding with the Templars while having sided with Orsino in the start of Act 3. I mean, in both games, you've been far better at rooting out blood mages than the Templars ever were, and they always enlist your aid to deal with them. Seeing as you do their job better than they do, it seems only fitting that you take up the responsibility. I'd then punish Anders for his actions by assigning him as the person who ascertains whether or not a mage is possessed.

The circle mages in Kirkwall was practicing blood magic no doubt, that's why Orsino refused to let Meredith search the tower for blood mages. Heck, he even help Quentin with his necromancy. If Orsino was like Irving, I would have sided with the mages.Hpa tqn (talk) 05:39, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Helped Quentin? Where does he say that? He says he *knew* about him, but didn't go after him because it would have given Meredith more ammo to use against the mages... which is pretty damned true considering how completely insane she was.

Another thing... we have no idea how long she had the Idol for a sword. Or at least I couldn't find any dates in the codex. Unless you can point out a date, assuming she had it for years does not help your cause. Adanu (talk) 08:19, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Orsino provided research material and support -- though this info is not given if you side with the Mages, I believe. I did both endings and can't remember, but there's a dialogue option where Hawke says "You helped the man who killed my mother!" There is a letter signed from O in Quentin's house that talks about providing books/materials but also cuts off support. Orsino also clearly knew some kind of blood magic ceremony, as Meredith points out in the Templar-side path -- Orsino doesn't just "figure out" how to do the ceremony.

As for the amount of time Meredith's had the relic-sword, if we consider that Bartrand didn't sell it right away -- since it drove him insane -- but that he doesn't have it when you complete the quest Family Matter in Act II, then we can figure that Meredith has the relic for about 3-4 years.veggies (talk) 13:47, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

What veggies said, above. It should also be noted that Orsino's note to Quentin mentions that the books he is giving Quentin could be dangerous "in the wrong hands."--DarkAger (talk) 19:58, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Just As a very wise ,short, with excessive chest hair, man once said: I Think Im Sick Of Mages And Templars.

I forget when, but the summary for one of Hawke's possible responses at one point reads "Not another Mages and Templars debate!"--DarkAger (talk) 19:58, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

BioWare should have included a third ending... Option C: Flee Kirkwall. Seriously. In addition to siding with the Templars or Mages you should have the option of just leaving. It's a valid path and also keeps the Templar/Mage War and Ander's bombing intact as a canon event. And since Orsino goes nuts no matter what the player does that stays canon too. As to who wins the battle at the Gallows? No one. Orsino and Meredith obliterate themselves with only wounded stragglers able to tell the tale. Hawke and whoever he has left in his party flee Kirkwall, taking with them as many citizens (of various social classes) to safety. Cutscene. Varric then explains that after the battle's fallout, Hawke and company return to Kirkwall to pick up the pieces and the citizens place Hawke as their leader... shortly afterwards (as the news of the battle and thus the seeds of rebellion spread) Hawke goes missing. --Zambingo (talk) 21:26, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Why flee after all you've done? You don't have the nobles and city guard support for nothing, and they're pretty sick of the fighting tearing their city apart as well. Relieve both Meredith and Orsino of power, peacefully or by force, replace them with more even-tempered and less influential members, and demand that the knight-commander and first enchanter run the Circle as a joint operation. Cullen wouldn't be a bad choice for the KC, though if Bethany isn't around I can't think of anyone who'd make a good FC. DokEnkephalin (talk) 21:37, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

If Bethany isn't around, that means you're a Mage... so why wouldn't Hawke be First-Enchanter? since we're talking about hypothetical situations, that is... Bluemax87 (talk) 21:42, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

The point of the new arrangement is to gut the power of the Circle in the first place, and Hawke couldn't enforce that by accepting the politically emasculated role of FC. Until the Chantry is rebuilt to moderate and balance, the whole tower needs to be held in an iron grip. Hawke would necessarily need to be Viscount to make it fly.DokEnkephalin (talk) 22:02, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Umm. That's all grand and stuff but when we start talking about those types of options we're removing the part of the canon event BioWare wants to happen. I'm sure many of us would love to resolve it peacefully and then prop up subordinates of our choosing, but that's just not feasible under the framework. The only feasible third option after Ander's bombing and when Meredith calls for the Right is to flee with whatever citizens, nobles and guard that you can rally. Meredith and her Templars were not going stop, the Mages were not going to stop. There is no need to pick a side when you can flee. You let them kill themselves, BioWare still gets their canon event and then you return to pick up the pieces (the return isn't even playable, it's a Varric VO just like when he tells you that you became Viscount in the Templar ending). Fleeing is an absolutely valid to way protect the people, which are the City not the physical buildings. Options for leaving are by boat or via caves. Playing the game we all know there are cave exits from the Undercity to the Wounded Coast. --Zambingo (talk) 21:50, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

You're suggesting that the carved-in-granite canonicity of the Mage-Templar Holy War that Bioware has a raging hardon for wouldn't be possible without the destruction of Kirkwall. But that's no more imaginative than forcefeeding the player the Conflict Ball so repeatedly and heavy-handedly. Taking a third, and reasonable, option would not necessarily preempt the Epic Bloodshed intended for DA3. I could suggest a few possible scenarios, but I'm not getting paid for plotting in this forum. DokEnkephalin (talk) 22:34, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I followed the advice of Merril whenever possible. She seemed pretty wise to me. Dw343 (talk) 08:58, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

One word:Eluvian.

My Hawke supported the mages, although each were guilty. I feel the mages in Kirkwall are weaker than in fereldon(there weren't nearly as many blood mages there) but I couldn't spare Anders. How stupid can you be to start a war involving the people you are trying to protect?Dragonage2fangirl (talk) 05:03, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Anders is decent if hes not drown in vengeance Justice which is more and more taking control. Nothing we can do. Iamin7ove (talk) 06:15, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sure there is something we can do. We can order an Exalted March on Bioware and EA, to force them to retcon DA2 and make Justice possess Orsino instead. --Braveangel (talk) 06:37, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

...as in, dead and decaying chunks of the Harvester? I dunno, if I were Justice, I'd fight eviction nail and tooth. Anders is much prettier host. Dorquemada (talk) 08:05, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

In my first run through the game, I started out as age Mage-supporter (I was playing as a mage), but then a Mage killed my mother, another Mage kidnapped my Brother and my Mage Companions either betrayed me (Merril in the Fade) or killed Innocents (Anders), besides every mage you meet in Kirkwall seems very unstable so in the end the Templars got my support! Meredith also seemed more "good" (in Anders' quest, we're told that Meredith is against the Tranquil solution for instance), if it hadn't been for the Idol... Off-topic: It seems liked someone wanted to start the “Mage-war” by corrupting Meredith (giving her the Sword)... Redsob (talk) 10:04, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Note: EVERYONE betrays you in the fade except Anders. Too bad the game did not represent templars doing nasty things to your family. What if, say, Ser Alrik rapes and tranquilizes Bethany? It could totally happen.

Also, Meredith has clearly gone too far with or without the idol. Her methods are extremely harsh and tend to force mages to demons from the very beginning. Idol is just a poor excuse. The fact that Ser Alrik has to be murdered in order to be stopped implies serious problems in the Kirkwall circle. Normally he should be executed or casted out of the order at least.

With the viscount and grand cleric failing to limit Meredith's power, conflict will break out eventually. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's what happened in act 3, not the idol. 58.100.159.248 (talk) 14:09, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above poster, especially with the representation of the templars. Seriously, why couldn't Bioware have done a mission similar to the capture to Fort Drakon that you had with the Warden?

If you were pro-mage or a mage yourself, during one mission Hawke could have been captured under the guise of meeting Meredith alone and then being ambushed and captured by her templars, or if you are pro-templar have Orsino ambush you and have apostate/cicle mages capture you instead. You would then go to a scene of Hawke being mercilessly beaten and interrogated in an unknown location as either Meredith or Orsino later walks in on you being tortured, ridiculing you about how you must be made an example of to the rest of Kirkwalls mages/ mage sympathizers or the templars/mage haters, actually giving you more of a reason to HATE Meredith or Orsino's guts. From here, you would be given a choice: either escape yourself (in a class-specific style like having a rogue lockpick your chains or a warrior just break them by sheer strength), call upon your love interest to rescue you, or (if your sister became a circle mage or your brother because a templar) have your sibling find your companions with the help of Meredith (pro-templar) or Orsino (pro-mage) and bust you out.

Not only would this have been an awesome heart breaker moment to have in act 3 and a good reason to add a few more hours of gameplay in this short act, but at least this way the player would finally have a personal reason to see either Orsino or Meredith pay for their crimes, rather than what was finally given to us. Now THAT would have been awesome. Sevarian10 (talk) 19:50, April 30, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10

Oh that would have been so cool, Captured! was one of the best quest of DA:O. But it had to be in a new location, the identical dungeons was driving me mad, it completely destroyed my game experience, but if they made that as a DLC, (Which I really can't imagine that they would) I would so much buy it.-rphb- (talk) 19:58, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Except, Redsob, that you're completely ignoring the Templar side of the problem. Meredith did not allow Ser Alric to follow through on his plan to make every mage Tranquil, no. But she also didn't stop him from illegally making mages Tranquil even after they had passed their harrowing. Nor did she, or Cullen, or Elthina, stop any of the other abuses going on at the gallows. We hear from several NPCs that the Circle Mages of Kirkwall are held in isolation in dark cells. According to Alain, "the Templars beat us, and nobody says anything." It is also strongly implied in several conversations and bits of ambient dialogue that some of the Templars, including Ser Alric, sexually abuse the mages in their care. If you let Feynriel go to the Dalish, you later find out that a band of Templars later tortured a Dalish child with fire in order to get information about him. Meredith is also rumored to have death squads who go around brutalizing and killing regular civilians who attempt to help runaway mages: an accusation that is later confirmed if you take the "A Noble Agenda" quest, where you see Ser Mettin about to order a woman killed for the crime of giving her apostate cousin one night's food and lodging.

Sooo... most of the mages in the game turn out to be crazy, yes. But we get to see plenty of Templars who are no better. What are thugs like Ser Alric, Ser Mettin, Ser Kerras, and Ser Dalish-Torturing-Woman doing in the Templars, anyway? Remember: Samson was kicked out of the order for delivering a mage's letter to his lover. Yet Ser Mettin is allowed to remain a Templar until the very moment that he has to be put down like a mad dog (after he attacks you, and his fellow Templars, if you didn't help him execute unarmed non-mage prisoners who had already surrendered). While I give Meredith credit for resisting the insanity-causing lyrium idol for so long, the fact is she was a fool for buying the thing in the first place, and she was a hateful bitch long before she ever got the thing. Depending on how you have Hawke relate to her, she doesn't turn on you until the very end... but from the various evidence you can find throughout the game, it's pretty clear that her attempting to kill you "just in case" was far from out of character for the woman.--DarkAger (talk) 21:29, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

With all that we have seen it is obvious that the templars of Kirkwall's closest real equivalent was the German Gestapo. Most mages turned up crazy yes, but how crazy would any of you be, if you got beaten up, raped, and kept in isolation for sport? Meredith hated the mages every bit as much as Hitler hated the Jews I believe that that there is a direct comparison. It was only natural evolution that she would turn on the champion and Cullen, she needed to solidify her power in the city, making her authority absolute. And a second that start to have doubt and a champion, even a mage-hating-protemplar-all-the-way-champion would be a treat to her. In that regard we can compare Hawke to Erwin Rommel. Even though he was one of Germany's greatest generals he was killed in the end (forced suicide) because his primary loyalty was to his country and not to the man leading it

I honestly believe that Meridith was happy to see the Chantry go up in flames. After the grand claric had ordered her to go back to the gallows in the beginning of act III she had already been marked. You remember the templars that was with her? What do you think they were doing there? Answer, they were Maradith death squard. They would have slaughtered everyone, and then accused the mages for it, in order for her to justify the annulment. Anders Just got to the grand cleric first. Maradith would have justified the murder to herself, by calling Elthina a mage supporter, for not supporting her outright.

If she had defeated the champion, the nobles would have been her next victims. Afterwards she would have started to expand her "righteous purging" to the other cities in the Free Marches. In the end the divine would have had to call an exalted march against her, for she would have continued her mad scheme until someone chopped her head off.-rphb- (talk) 08:54, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

As I'm reading you here, guys, it seems there could have been options and solutions that would have swept us players from our chairs; pity they never occured. The story had a great potential, I'm really sorry it was so underdeveloped. Being captured by either party, or being given a glimpse of the consequences if Meredith was on the loose, would have been terrific. Ygrain (talk) 21:07, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Yes! Imagine an alternative history DLC called "Nightingales fury". Featuring Leliana as the PC.

In this version Maradith won her dual agaist the champion. Cullen is executed for treason and Maradith appoint herself "Knight-Commander General". After purging the city she starts to expand to the rest of the free Marches.

The Divine is prepering an exalted match agaist the Free marches to stop Maradiths mad scheme that have become a treat to all of Thedas as more and more templars and young men and women are lured by her radical ideas and strong uncompromising character.

As one of the Divines most trusted advisers (and deadliest assassins) Leliana is sent behind the enemies lines to find and kill Maradith.

Succesfully infiltrating Kirkwall, Lilianas next task is to find surviving companions of the champion so she can leard the secret of Maradith lyrium idol and how to defeat it. These allies include Varric, Isabela, Merrill and Anders. The old guard captain have been captured and is presumed dead. This belief turns out to be neither true nor false. Guard captain Aveline did instead became on of the Knight-Commander General's first nonmage tranquils

Before they can get close enough to Maradith they are also confronted by her two new seconds: knight-captains Sebastian and Fenris. Both sadistically coldblooded killers. Originally they followed the champion, but they betrayed him when he choose to fight for the mages and spare Anders.-rphb- (talk) 22:00, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Oooh nice! this would have been a great potential equivalent to the "darkspawn chronicles" DLC, showing a parallel world where our Champion was no more, and where our final game decisions would come full circle. You better be reading this BIOWARE, we are making some good S**t!! Sevarian10 (talk) 22:30, May 1, 2011 (UTC)Sevarian10

I don't think Sebastian or namely Fenris would have been allowed in the Templars and they would hardly become high-ranking so soon, I guess they would do as Meredith's hirelings.

And I'd hate to dispose of Cullen, I greatly appreciate his development, from the freaked, broken mage-hater to the man he has become. - Actually, why not play as Cullen? He might escape prior the execution, then get hunted down by his ex-fellow Templars. Overwhelmed, they beat him down and drag him back, only to encounter the embodiment of Vengeance, who goes off lose when seeing Templars abusing someone. He recognizes Cullen only after he has taken him to the clinic and healed him, and Cullen happily wakes in the middle of an argument between Anders and the remaining companions whether to kill him or not. Cullen manages to persuade them that he'll be usefull alive, and we end up with the unthinkable becoming true - a Templar cooperating with an abomination :D - Sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't logged in. Ygrain (talk) 10:52, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, and I also agree with you, Fenris and Sebastian wouln't become highranking templars so soon. But they would still be deeply alliged with Meredith. Sebastian would have taken Starkhaven back and formed a permanent alliance with Meradiths Kirkwall, in effect becoming her lacky.

I'm not sure what Fenris would have played in her plan, but he would have proven himself both useful and loyal.

You are also right about Cullen, his development needs to come out full, but I am not sure it would be best that he was the PC, in that I still favour Leliana, (else we couldn't call the DLC Nightingales fury) but let him become a companion. -rphb- (talk) 10:34, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

I favoured Cullen because 1) Leliana has already had her DLC, 2) Cullen's escape, fight and re-capture would make a strong, compelling intro that would draw the players in and allow identification with the P. - IMHO, a strong intro is what DA2 lacks, as well, and Bioware had better pay attention to this issue in future Ygrain (talk) 10:52, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't argy with you about this, either version would be better then none of them-rphb- (talk) 10:59, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

In the begining I supported mages, but what Quentin did changed me, also Grace and Alain betrayed me despite I hepled them. In the end I supported templars, because of Orsino. He supported Quentin and allowed him for murders and experiments, he's not better than Gascard. I don't believe any of his words about Quentin. The city was always corrputed and the circle was full of blood mages, demons and abominations, no way those mages were innocent. I see Orsino more as my foe than Meredith, because he could have saved Leandra and did nothing to do this, so I have no reason to support him. Even if I save those weak willed mages, templars from another city will come and kill them. I wasn't heartless, I didn't allow to execute Bethany and mages, who wanted to surrender. I killed Anders, because I hate terrorists and abominations like him. Template:Unsigned 78.9.152.243

Both sides have faults within their own motives, no one is of exception. We people are corruptible in many ways imaginable no matter how good our intentions are... At this point, it's not a matter of choosing which sides to support because we believe that a given side's actions are just. We simply are being forced to take a side for the sake of survival through these inevitable series of events... ------Seeking Seer, (The Deceiver's Bane) 02:33, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

To Seeking Seer, nicely said. As for me, I side with the mages every time. I don't hate Orsino for giving Quentin the books, I hate how the books were used in Quentin's hands (Leandra's death). I admit at times Meredith is right. As for my choice, Sebastian couldn't have said it any better: "Why are we discussing the Right of Annulment when the culprit is right here!" Or something along those lines.--KCMueller (talk) 04:19, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

You can't be serious. Do you blame alcohol, when a drunk driver killed someone? Do you blame poison, when the poisoner killed somobody? No and no, so in Orsino and Quentin case, you can't blame those books. That's ridiculous.

Just regarding Orsino, I thought we'd all agreed his little brain explosion with the ritual had less to do with story and character, and more to do with Bioware hurriedly adding an extra boss fight. As such, I have trouble seeing it as pertinent to his character and the debates that periodically rage over culpability. I do think he was ineffectual at policing his Circle though, Harvester or no. Also an option to publically hang draw and quarter Anders to sate the city's desire for blood would've been fantastic. --Duranic (talk) 05:38, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

The alcohol pararell is poor, it lacks a component. It was more like: drunk driver = Quentin, alcohol = books, shopkeeper = Orsino. Still if the driver looks underaged as Quentin being rather suspicious, the shopkeeper might be guilty of not asking for his ID. As such, guilty but not as much as a murder.It's like blacksmith being guilty of selling sword to local assassin who'd then fight you and possibly kill someone(haha that makes all blacksmiths rather guilty in AC, after all if for example Ezio doesnt look shady in his clothes then who does?)

I say moraly better is siding with mages because it doesnt support genocide. Anders is guilty, not circle at that time. What I found strange was Orsino getting mad with champion on his side. Things looked perfectly fine to me, he didn't help any mage with his blood magic. That was something so ridiculous that I'd think he was mentally unstable even without the idol.

Someone also said that if Bethany is dead, that means you play mage. Thats not true. She can die without that. That's not important anyways but I wanted to say it. --Astenan (talk) 22:08, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

And what do we have for supporting the mages? An exile. The circle was corrupted and needed to be destroyed, I saw enough demons and abominations to be sure. Orsino failed his job by aiding maleficars, Orsino is the worst 1st enchanter in the history, he's nothing like Irving. Alistair said Meredith was the greatest threat, he's a fool, it was Anders, who started this idiotic war. Genocide of the abominations is no crime, because they are threat for the world just like darkspawns and killing the templars is also a genocide like every war. I feel no regret for destroying this corrupted circle, besides every circle mage I helped betrayed me from Grace and Alain to Orsino, only Bethany wasn't corrupted like rest of them. 78.9.152.243

It's not a matter of what we get for it. Think of DAO, we stay loyal to Cailen (or how was he spelled...), Loghain says we're traitors anyways. Obviously, from those two groups after chantry exploded, it was Templars (as their leader and following her) who wanted to go on rampage on whole circle. Mages didnt want to fight templars, they were talking bad about them but didnt dare to attack. Like you said Bethany is the only mage that's good, might be true but there are some random mages who wont cause harm too, like the french boy who wanted to live a little, there should be more of guys like that. Too weak to be harmful, too average to justify killing them or letting them appear in the story. They only show us those outlawed mages who ran away from circle and stayed around for some reason. Hawke never chased a mage who just escaped to live silently in the forest, why would he.--Astenan (talk) 15:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

In fact I don't support the templars, I act for my own. I wanted revange on Orsino and had enough of those ungreateful backstabbers. From circle mages I helped everyone betrayed me despite my support. I had no reason to support any of the sides, I played on both sides and I rather support the templars, a viscount position and order is better for me than an exile and arival of another templars to slay those mages. Those mages I fought weren't harmful, they summoned demons and turned into monsters even if I helped them. I didn't let kill Bethany or those 3 mages, who surendered. Circle in Kirkwall was corrupted unlike this one in Ferelden, were mages and templars were quite balanced. 78.9.152.243