Forum:Analyzing the DA writing team

Forums: Index > Game DiscussionAnalyzing the DA writing team

Note: This topic has been unedited for 4459 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over. Do not continue it unless it really needs a response.

After reading David Gaider's latest interview I started to think about what the problems with the writing team are. At first, due to some of his comments I thought maybe there were too many women on the writing team but after looking up the writing team and seeing that they were pretty evenly divided number wise, even at some points having more men, I concluded that this is unlikely. At which point it occurred to me that blaming genders was too general and was just as bad as Meredith blaming all mages for the actions of one. Admittedly, I should have seen this sooner. After researching I believe the problem lies in Gaider's apparently poor memory and inability to tell product concepts from final product (likely just due to stress and random headaches) and in the other seemingly predominant writer, Jennifer Hepler. I briefly considered that her pregnancy may have affected her writing but if she's currently on maternity leave then she most likely wasn't pregnant when DA2 was written. Her dislike of combat and video games has likely played a part and caused a few problems. There is also a chance there is some nepotism here as she may be related to Mass Effect writer Chris Hepler.

Certainly writing is not the only problem (EA's corporate greed is still the biggest problem IMO) but it may be one we can help to fix depending on who reads this. I think the writers getting swapped in and out from other projects (such as Mass Effect and Star Wars: The Old Republic) likely causes problems as well. Also I don't think people should make things they wouldn't use themselves. For example, if you have no desire to play the game, you should not be writing it. If you just want to write, be an author. Having people that don't like video games write video games seems to be as stupid as having an atheist perform a religious ceremony. Below is a list of the writers compiled with any DA info I could find out about them. I do this in the hopes that we can isolate and possibly assist in some small way in correcting the problem so DA3 can be more well-written. Though the writers of certain side projects may be of little-to-no importance.

DAO/DAA/DA2 writers: David Gaider, Jennifer Hepler, Sheryl Chee, Mary Kirby, Daniel Erickson, Eric “Ferret” Baudoin, Luke Krisjanson, Jay Turner and a new writer named Tonya (possibly Tonia Laird).

David Gaider wrote Zevran Arainai, Alistair, King Cailan Theirin, Morrigan, Shale, a large part of Warden-Commander Duncan, the Dalish Elf Origin, the Human Noble Origin, ‘the Nature of the Beast’ and ‘Arl of Redcliffe’ in DAO. Nathaniel Howe, Anders and Justice in DAA. Cassandra Pentaghast, Fenris, First Enchanter Orsino and Knight-Commander Meredith Stannard in DA2. He also wrote the books The Stolen Throne, The Calling and Asunder.

Jennifer Hepler wrote most of the dwarven NPCs in Orzammar, the Dwarf Commoner Origin, ‘the Anvil of the Void’, Paragon Branka and Hespith in DAO. Anders/Justice (Vengeance), Bethany Hawke, Leandra Amell, Grand Cleric Elthina, Knight-Captain Cullen, Sebastian Vael, the mage-Templar plot and unnamed DLC in DA2. She is currently on maternity leave. She also dislikes video games and would like an option to skip combat in games as stated in an interview with ‘Killer Betties’ of which I could only find fragments of since the original page doesn’t seem to exist anymore.

Daniel Erickson wrote the City Elf Origin and the Dwarf Noble Origin.

Luke Krisjanson presumably wrote the Prince Bhelen Aeducan/Lord Pyral Harrowmont plot.

Jay Turner wrote the majority of Oghren and side quests (Korcari Wilds, Blackstone Irregulars, Mage’s Collective, etc.). He did not work on DA2.

Mary Kirby wrote Ser Cauthrien, the Sten of the Beresaad, the majority of Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir, the majority of ‘the Chant of Light’ and ‘the Landsmeet’ in DAO. Merrill and Varric Tethras in DA2.

Sheryl Chee wrote Dog, Leliana, Senior Enchanter Wynne, Oghren, Knight-Templar Cullen, the Magi Origin, ‘the Broken Circle’ and ‘the Urn of Sacred Ashes’ in DAO. Oghren, Sigrun and Velanna in DAA. The majority of Isabela in DA2. I'm not sure she understands the meaning of the word 'hobby'.

Felicia Day wrote, produced and starred in Dragon Age: Redemption and played Tallis in the Mark of the Assassin DLC for DA2.

Orson Scott Card and Aaron Johnston wrote the Dragon Age comic.

Penny Arcade artists wrote 2 Dragon Age web comics.

Chris Pramas wrote the plot for the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG.

My solution would be to relax the deadlines, stop shifting writers around and maybe ease in this new writer Tonya (sp?) to replace Jennifer Hepler. Feel free to post any valid info I may not have found as well as your own conclusions and solutions.--Vampire Damian (talk) 22:14, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

David Gaider told that though Jennifer Hepler did write Anders etc in DA2, he himself as a Lead writer decided what the major plot twist and the story in general should be. So if you are dissatisfied with "mages vs templars" with no middle ground, with the Chantry blowing or with Anders being possessed and inevitably going down a slippery slope etc, you are aiming your anger in the wrong direction :) I can find the link if you wish. Asherinka (talk) 22:23, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Admittedly this is a volatile subject but I think anger will only cloud our judgements. I'm trying to look at things more pragmatically. Gaider is certainly not blameless and Hepler's time off may be a much needed break for someone that has likely been highly stressed and over-emotional. She could come back a better writer. The 2 of them seem to be the primary influences in writing with Sheryl Chee and Mary Kirby being the next highest up. Maybe Gaider just needs some time off too. Think about how much they have done in 3 years and try to consider their perspectives. Thinking about it more now, maybe stress is the only real problem with the writing. That and writing themselves into a corner, which undoubtedly causes more stress. Maybe the writers just need to take some time off and play the games they made. I highly doubt they have considering how long even one playthrough can take and how much they work. That could also be a source of irritation to them, spending so much time making a game that they never get to play it. Still, as I said I welcome more info that could further clarify this mess. I'm sure there's plenty of relevant info I couldn't find. --Vampire Damian (talk) 23:20, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

For more information on Jennifer Helper, check out this link: http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/showthread.php?146951-The-Fall-of-Bioware-Thread

It includes some insight into why she does not like combat in video games.

Also, for the original interview at "Killer Betties": http://web.archive.org/web/20061108014108/http://www.killerbetties.com/killer_women_jennifer_hepler?page=0%2C3

Hope that helps! Ionic Nerd (talk) 00:04, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Err.. I just realized that I totally missed the point of the whole thread. How is liking or disliking combat related to writing at all? O_o I used to think that writers generally have nothing to do with designing game mechanics... Asherinka (talk) 00:17, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I can see how a writer's stance towards combat might influence his or her writing. For instance, if a writer thinks that combat in a game is a waste of time, then he or she might write the story in such a way that combat becomes a rarer occurance. Perhaps, for instance, the story could be written so that a "good character" never has to kill absolutely anybody in the entire game; on the other hand, the option to engage in a fight is only given to "evil characters". So, basically, it could happen that anytime that the player chooses a diplomatic dialogue option for Hawke, no combat occurs, but it always occurs for an aggressive dialogue option. It is feasible, and it could be done in such a manner if a writer wished to do so. So, I think that a writer's views on other aspects of a game's design can influence his or her writing. At some level, game's are an integrated whole with story, gameplay (including combat), art design and graphical quality, sound effects and voice acting, etc. all working together and influencing each other to produce the final product. Just my two cents.... Ionic Nerd (talk) 00:42, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

I am pretty sure writers have next to nothing to do with combat. On the contrary, DG said that he did not want Orsino to ever turn on a pro-mage Hawke, he was made to write it as he was told that they needed another boss. And he did not want a mage Hawke to become a blood mage, he was simply informed that they need it from the gameplay perspective. Asherinka (talk) 01:39, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

"also dislikes video games" You know going through the interview this isn't said at all. Also where was it said she wrote the mage-templar plot?(175.39.16.184 (talk) 01:06, February 3, 2012 (UTC))

Her disliking video games (in general, not as a whole) is fairly apparent unless I just misinterpreted her tone. Her writing the Mage-Templar plot is on her Bioware profile page if i remember correctly.

@Ionic Nerd

Thanks for finding a link to that interview that actually works. I still think there might be some nepotism with her husband Chris but It doesn't seem to be significant as she is still a good writer. I'm somewhat curious as to why Gaider wrote the novels and not her. Seems like something she would like to do and it could have given him a chance to rest and sort things out with this tangled web they've weaved. She does pose an interesting idea: Would we still play Dragon Age if there was no combat? But I think that'd be a whole 'nother topic all on it's own. That first link seemed like alot of angry rants but there was still some useful information there.

I think her being 1 of the 2 lead writers might have influenced the people who designed the combat. Her big opposition for combat seems to be rooted in her lack of skill at it. to quote her, "The hardest part about working at bioware writing for the games is having to play them. I'm really bad at them. I can't read the in game maps either." It could be as simple as her asking a friend/co-worker to make things easier on her. She also said she preferred a shorter story, understandably since she has less time to play. These perfectly understandable feelings have to be viewed differently with a writer however because of their influence.

She wanted DA shorter and with simpler combat, DA2 ended up being shorter with simpler combat. Are these 2 things connected? Maybe not, but it seems likely. The lack of options in DA2 seems likely to be Gaider trying to avoid writing himself into a corner yet again, which is also understandable but still created problems. He seems to dismiss the good parts of DAO just because they're more work but quality usually takes time. We need the writing equivalents to Master Wade and Herren, not some generic merchant selling mass-produced crap. Maybe they've been through this already themselves and that's why DA3 has barely even begun production. I sincerely hope they take their time with DA3. Give time for the writers and other staff members to see the effects of their choices. --Vampire Damian (talk) 01:25, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

@ Vampire Damian: Yes, I agree, the first link that I listed devolves into some angry ranting at all things Bioware; but, the first couple of posts might be interesting in trying to understand Mrs. Helper's perspective on video game design and writing. Also, even some of the later posts on that link feature direct forum quotes from David Gaider. Anyway, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt. One forum quote or one interview can not possibly shed light on a writer's complete views towards game design; but, they might give partial insights here and there. You take what the Internet gods give you! Ionic Nerd (talk) 01:42, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that you guys don't understand at all how writers share assignments. A Lead writer writes the plot as a whole. That is why Gaider writes the novels. Writing characters != deciding what role they have in the events. I think it rather boils down to all the dialogue and small things like companion interactions and party reactions. I.e. in case of Anders you must blame JH for his moodiness and DG for his fate and the Chantry.

And no, writers have next to nothing to do with combat. They write a script and give it to VA actors and to the team that develops game mechanics. Those who develop the mechanics make suggestions and if needed alterations to the script are made. Asherinka (talk) 01:39, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

@ Asherinka: I definitely agree that writers are not involved in combat *mechanics*. But, as to when and where combat can and must occur during a game's plot, I think that writers must be involved with that. I mean, who determines (ultimately) whether or not conflict will occur between Side A and Side B? It must be the writers, I believe! Or, am I missing something here? (As for the fight with Orsino, it has been fairly well established that that was due with EA execs wanting another major boss fight. They went over the heads of everyone at Bioware, including the Lead Writer, David Gaider.) All I am suggesting is that writing can influence the *amount* and *frequency* of combat in a video game.

As far as writers sharing assignments, I cannot comment on that. We will probably never know who came up with the overall plot of DA2 (or any game for that matter). For all we know, all the writers sat down together and hashed out the critical plot points as a group. In that case, we can never know who really decided that, for instance, Anders was ALWAYS going to blow up the Chantry and that the player would have no control over this. Also, even though invididual writers are responsible for individual characters, the lead writer still maintains oversight and has to approve any fundamental changes. Ionic Nerd (talk) 01:53, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

They are definitely involved, but I don't think they are responsible for it, so to say. They are responsible for the plot and the dialogue. And I can see absolutely no reason why a writer should like combat mechanics in order to write good stuff.

DG wrote on BSN that it was he who came up with the overall plot, but I'm too lazy to search for the post at the moment( He also wrote some of the characters himself. Asherinka (talk) 02:00, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

@ Asherinka: No, I agree with what you are saying! (Believe it or not!) We really can't hold any writer *responsible* for anything other than writing. It is dangerous and wrong to "scapegoat" anybody, as someone above has already mentioned. But, nevertheless, I am just interested in Mrs. Helper's ideas about games having less combat (or having a "skip" button to allow a player to "jump over" combat sections). That is something that I have been personally contemplating recently: why are so many mainstream, AAA games so focused on combat? Don't get me wrong, I love combat, actually! But, it is interesting to consider this from a game design perspective. So, Mrs. Helper's ideas to that effect sparked my interest in the possible direction that Bioware might be able to take their future games (not necessarily the DA franchise). Anyway, I apologize if I sounded like I was *blaming* or *attacking* Mrs. Helper's writing or her role at Bioware. (I actually like what she did with Anders, more than, say, what was done with other characters by some of the other writers.) Ionic Nerd (talk) 02:06, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well. Two confessions: 1. I liked DA2 plot 2. I don't care much for combat in offline rpgs. I just don't get it. There is no wowprogress or something, no competition at all.. why bother? Besides, its ridiculously easy compared to MMOs, especially with the pause. Try doing something much more complex in real time and with 24 idiots.. err, best buddies instead of 3 NPC you can control, really. But that's just me. Don't kill me, please :) Asherinka (talk) 02:18, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Personally I rather liked most of the things Jennifer Hepler wrote, and there was still combat in Anvil of the Void, plenty in my opinion. You don't have to like the combat aspect of games to know that they're essensial in a video game. I loved the plots they had in DA2, but to me the problems that messed it up were the lack of companion dialogue and a cohesive story, as well as combat flaws and repetitive environments. I know it's human nature to look for a scapegoat, but I really don't think Jennifer Hepler is the best choice. I'd pick EA, it's more fun to pick on big companies anyways ;) 71.218.249.98 (talk) 01:52, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Just reading a little bit of the Jennifer Hepler comments makes me want to choke her (ok, I wouldn't choke her, but I would call her an idiot.) She makes a comment on Anders' sexuality in DAA and mentions that he talked about promiscuity in the Fereldan Circle. She states that Anders seems open to anything, which I disagree with. He stated that he just wanted a pretty girl and to shoot lightning at fools. He was STRAIGHT. The more you read what she says, the more you see that she is the driving force behind homosexuality and bisexuality in Dragon Age. She sounds like she is using Dragon Age as her platform for preaching about it, to me. She states that Anders had already let what seemed to be a man (Justice) into his very being, sharing a great intimacy with him, so why not share a physical and emotional relationship with a man? Listen Jennifer, I've shared apartments with other guys, and I have close personal relationships with other guys, but there is no chance in hell I would have a man as a sexual partner. I'm a straight guy, no matter how close of a personal understanding I have with another man. No matter how enlightened I am, no matter how liberal I am, I am still a straight guy that desires women. Nothing could change that.

In it's purest form, sex is about procreation. That's why sex exists in the first place. It's only secondary that it is pleasurable. Throughout nature, males are wired to procreate, procreate, procreate. In some instances, males share emotional relationships, but males are primarily wired to reproduce, whether they are snails, frogs, dogs, cattle, monkeys or men. A straight male isn't very likely to just go out and have sex with men just because he's sexually adventurous. Jennifer Hepler writes a male character using a female point of view. She sees intimacy and emotion as the driving factors for sex. I don't want people to think that I believe men are mindless, sex-crazed beasts, and only want physicality. That's not my point. I truly value intimacy and emotion in a relationship, maybe even more than most guys, but males are driven by testosterone. Men are truly driven to reproduce. Any human teenage boy could tell you how powerful that drive can be.

Basically, I think Jennifer Hepler has a warped sense of how most people think. This is a direct quote about ME3 and Shepard's sexuality-

"I highly recommend having a homosexual Shepard in ME3, but even if you don't, you won't be left out-even straight Shepards will accidentally observe an intimate homosexual encounter aboard the Normandy, though obviously you'll have much more fun with a gay Shepard. I think there will be 4 to 6 different possible gay relationships, and I'm pushing the animation team to give them all a unique lovemaking scene."

Ok, seriously. If I'm a straight guy, and I am, I won't feel left out if I don't have a gay relationship. I don't want to stumble upon a gay encounter. It interests me exactly zero percent. Even though she thinks it is obvious, I won't have more fun as a gay Shepard. I don't see having a homosexual relationship as being fun. I don't even find it an interesting experience. I don't care to see animated gay sex. I don't object to people having a gay relationship, I just don't care about it. I try to explain to people that this isn't homophobia. It's disinterest. I don't like tuna fish. It doesn't mean I think tuna fish should be banned, or that it is evil, or even a poor food choice. I just don't like the way it tastes. No matter how much I learn about it, I'll never desire it. I won't ever find the right tuna sandwich that will open my eyes to the greatness of tuna fish.

Sorry for rambling, and hopefully I haven't upset any of our homosexual or bisexual friends. I think everyone has the right to choose what they want out of life, without fear of being persecuted for it, as long as it isn't harmful to others. I think there should be homosexual and bisexual options in our games (assuming relationships are included at all), but I think they should be OPTIONS. Persistent gore was optional in DAO. Why not have a toggle for "persistent homosexuality" or "any sexuality"? Would it be that hard? Would Jennifer feel homosexuality is being treated as "bad" if there was a toggle to turn it off? If so, that's ridiculous.

When I buy a game called Dragon Age, I expect dragons, and magic and combat and a good story. I don't expect disapproval from Anders because I deny his homosexual advances. LVTDUDE (talk) 02:51, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

And, as far as Jennifer Hepler not enjoying the combat and gameplay portions in a game like Dragon Age, and wanting a fast forward button...

Video games started out as simple games with action. Pac Man, Frogger, Centipede, etc. Role playing video games incorporate a story. The story adds to the action of the game. When you skip dialogue, you are still playing a game, with the story removed. If you skip past the game to read the story....YOU SHOULD READ A FUCKING BOOK OR WATCH A MOVIE!!! I'm sorry, was that too harsh? Nah, I don't think so. She's a twit. LVTDUDE (talk) 03:02, February 3, 2012 (UTC)