Okay, I can't be the only one utterly sick of this. I was put off by so many people constantly labeling Alistair as "whiny" in Origins, and I'm even more irritated that so many people say the same of both Anders and Fenris in DA2. I mean, we ALL know genuinely whiny people in real life, and the only character in these games that comes close to that is Carver. Alistair was treated like crap his entire life and constantly told that he was a lowborn good-for-nothing, to the point where he actually came to believe it. His complete lack of self-esteem isn't whiny, it's the realistic result of what he's been told since he was BORN. The same holds true for Fenris and Anders. One was an abused slave for as long as he can remember, quite literally, and the other one has seen so much abuse that he's obsessed with putting an end to it. Both characters are filled with hatred for legitimate reasons and have been so abused their entire lives that they can't focus on anything else. This is also true to life, and for anyone to dismiss their behavior as "whining" just goes to show how utterly lacking most people are in empathy.

But what is really pissing me off are all the people calling Isabela a whore, "hoe," or slut. I've seen her called such about a dozen times now, in various threads.

What's the deal here? She's a strong, confident woman who doesn't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks of her. But it never fails--any time a woman chooses to be a sexual creature on her own terms, people---usually men, of course--label her a whore or some variation.

How many people--seriously now--called Zevran a derogatory name based on his willingness to have sex? Because if Isabela deserves to be called a slut, than so does he. But I don't remember anyone ever calling him one. Why not? The only difference between the two is their gender.

That's what it boils down to: People who are calling Isabela a slut wouldn't be doing so if she were a male character. And I'm sure that at least one person will come screaming into this thread to insist otherwise, insist that they TOTALLY would call a man "like her" a slut, too. (Or some absurd term like "manslut" or whatever).

So what gives, people? Isabela enjoys sex and she isn't ashamed of that fact. Why the bloody hell does that make her a slut? And DON'T tell me that it's because she'll sleep with anyone and everyone. There's plenty of evidence in the game that indicates otherwise. So let's be honest here: how many of you calling Isabela things like "a typical pirate hoe" would be attacking her for her sexuality if she were a man? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.51.102.53 (talk)

I see your point, but let it be known that I trash Zevran all the time. Let's face facts that people are going to trash talk the man-whore less then the whore... becase he doesnt even really show up in DA2 except for the one cameo that is so forgettable i ... what was I talking about... anyways yea... Part of Isabella's charm is that she IS the kind of person who sleeps around and is so free that whore doesnt really mean anything derogative it's just the easiest way to describe her. IMO. - Teonlight | Talk 22:30, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not referring to people not talking about Zevran for the DA2 game, but in general. Long before DA2 came out, when Zevran was discussed, I never ONCE saw him referred to as a slut or any such similar term as the crap being tossed around about Isabela. There's no denying it: there's a huge double-standard at play here. Any time a man behaves exactly as Isabela does, very, VERY FEW people ever call him a slut, even though the same damned people are quick to call a woman one. You may not make a gender distinction, but you'd be blind to claim that most people don't. And you're forgetting my whole point is that people in these forums ARE referring to her as a whore/hoe/slut in a derogatory fashion, not merely as a descriptor.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.51.102.53 (talk)

If you ask Isabela, she can never get enough slamming. And yes, that makes her a slut, something she's not ashamed of. Note there's a distinction between this and a "whore"; she never solicits money for sex, and objects the one time you try to pimp her out. DokEnkephalin (talk) 22:38, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but "slut" is a derogatory term historically and currently meant as an insult. It is disingenuous to try to suggest that it is merely a descriptive term, as if it "just" refers to a woman who "can never get enough slamming." As for the bit about being a whore, yes, you're correct as far as the literal meaning of that word, but that doesn't change teh fact that people can and do refer to her as a whore and mean it in precisely the same sense as "slut."—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.51.102.53 (talk)

Objects by saying "I can whore myself out just fine without your help."... Personally I don't slam on any of the characters. So what if she's a slut? She admits it, she enjoys it. And yes, Zevran is a slut too. Again, so what? They just don't treat sex with the same reverence as say Leliana or Merrill do. —ErzengelLichtes (Contribs) 22:46, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

The "so what" refers to the fact that people on these forums are using the term in its historical derogatory sense. I'm the one saying that she's NOT a slut just because she insists on living according to her own terms, and will have sex when and with whom she damn well pleases. I'm saying that doesn't make her a slut, it makes her a confident, self-possessed, no-nonsense woman.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.51.102.53 (talk)

So, she's not a slut or a whore? She's loose? Easy? Insatiable? Sex-crazed? It's just a word. We all know she loves sex. I don't think she'd be offended by the terminology, so why are you? I don't think she's getting worse treatment than Zevran. Plenty of people, including me, have ripped on Zevran. By the way, I really think someone this impassioned about a topic should sign his or her name. LVTDUDE (talk) 23:11, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

I second that! - Teonlight | Talk 23:17, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but what's the point? Half of the people using the term "slut" referring to Isabela say this in a humorous fashion and not as a derigatory term. Hell, most players like/love Isabela because she's so much fun. And yet, you object because this and that. As LVTDUDE mentioned, there are other terms, and it's easier to use that one.

And Zevran is a bad case of a manwhore, and a bisexual one at that. Both can be enjoyed as characters. From what I saw on the boards, Isabela's rather well-liked.

( 89.77.234.187 (talk) 23:18, April 8, 2011 (UTC) )

mmm hmmm we do love us some Isabela! - Teonlight | Talk 23:21, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Who cares? She's awesome. In fact, she's the ONLY reason I played the game twice. Whore, slut, dishrag, whatever, it's only words that don't mean anything anyway. And she sure as hell doesn't care in game, that's for sure. And that's why I love her because I don't care either. That's kind of the whole point with her actually. She's fun. Period. I wish I could do more with her in game actually. Maybe then I'd actually play it again. The Grey Unknown (talk) 23:21, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

As someone who's used and received the word 'slut' as a term of endearment, I frankly gives a shit who interprets or intends it to be an insult. This isn't 'disingenuous', it's simply placing your distaste beneath me. You know, where I sit. DokEnkephalin (talk) 23:23, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I just think people who call Alistair whiny are ignorant. 98.202.11.12 (talk) 23:32, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

DokEnkephalin - well said, and well argued. I too have been chapped by the constant dismissal of our dark-haired bawdy pirate as some disease-carrying tramp. All too easy to label because she happens to seek her own pleasure. And all too easy to ignore her character development because she has a low-cut top. Sure, we all have our favorite characters, but the vitriol flung at the Rivaini has been disturbing excessive. WhyKikyouWhy (talk) 23:38, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

WKW: As far as the "Disease-carrying tramp" goes, I think that is pretty accurate. If you walk around the docks w/ her in the party, you'll hear a line along the likes of "I hear the sailors in (some city I can't remember) named an itch after you." And she even talks about "I think I need a bath. Do you think I need a bath?" I have very little problem with her sleeping around, but IRL I wouldn't sleep with her if SHE paid ME money. Medieval-style loose sailor woman who doesn't bathe? Not touching that, period. Edit: To be fair, I thought the same thing about Zevran in DAO, which is why none of my female characters romanced him. I did, however, romance Isabela in DA2 because I liked her character better, AND she was easily the most physically attractive female in the game IMO.99.28.99.152 (talk) 00:45, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

If it helps, I’ve been calling Zev a man-whore since day one. However, I have always done so with love because Zevran is my second favorite DA:O companion. I have called Isabela a whore but again, I’ve done it with love. She sleeps around a ton making her a pretty big slut, but that doesn’t make her a bad person or someone that I even dislike, it makes her, her! Mrs.AlistairTheirin 23:40, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

The bashing isn't such a big deal, really. I doubt there's anything said on discussion boards that wouldn't be said in Thedas, and I imagine it would all roll off Isabela's and Zevran's backs. Well, unless delivered as fighting words, because there's one thing they love as much as sex. I'm sure they'd be touched if a close friend who actually knows them were to step up and defend them, but they'd probably be amused by chivalry from strangers. DokEnkephalin (talk) 23:41, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

God I miss sluts...The Grey Unknown (talk) 23:42, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

I actually find calling her a slut or a whore offensive as well, but mostly you can see it from the post if it's meant as humorous or an insult. Personally I think that whore can only act as an insult for its literal meaning. Most of the posts like these bash all, at least all the romanceable, characters alike - Anders is whiny, Fenris is too anime, Merrill is stupid and Isabela is a whore. Same people might be offended if someone went on calling Morrigan a bitch, Leliana naive or preachy, Alistair whiny etc. The most important difference between these posts is that some are humorous (and it's clearly seen which ones) whilst others are just pointless character bashing. Sure, DA2 characters aren't to everyone's liking. It is impossible to make a game in which there are characters to everyone's liking. But that doesn't mean that the characters that do exists aren't good characters. There is always going to be at least one character you aren't that keen on but then, there's others who thinks that's the best one in the game. Jaarlitar (talk) 00:06, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

How dare you call my Morrigan a bitch! She saved my life! TWICE! =-P - Teonlight | Talk 00:13, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I could go on about evolutionary psychology and how we've come to glorify promiscuity in men and condemn it in women, but that ignores the fact that we're supposed to be self aware or something, which means that all that bs isn't an excuse for anything. I like sex. Isabella likes sex. We all like sex. Move on people.

Also, sign your posts,

BluSuedeNicNac81 (talk) 00:58, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

I actually like her, I don't understand the modding community turning her into a barbie doll en masse. Blonde hair blue eyes white skin. IMO she's really the only woman in the DA universe that doesn't have the line backer shoulder oddly proportioned body of Morrigan or the default E.T. in a red wig look Lileanna had.

Thank god for the DAO redesign Project. She likes sex, who doesn't? at least she's direct about it unlike E.T. the c-tease (tee hee I kissed a girl) and "Lawrence the Witch of the Wilds Taylor". Oddly though Morrigan is MUCH easier then Isabella. If you're going to categorize them. Morrigan is a whore who uses her cooch to get her way, Isabella is a nypho, like Zevran.

Isabella didn't screw you just to get you to go get her a book while she did nothing, yet morrigan "Warden get my moms book and you can poke me in the brown eye...again" just saying.

ALTHOUGH! I will agree with a certain cameo that Isabella and Morrigan are very similar one is just hide behind a bitchy exterior and is more of a whore.TheSabi (talk) 01:04, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

If people are calling her a slut, it's probably because she's getting more ass than they are :D ~Unregistered wiki contributor 01:45, April 9, 2011

I'm female and I think Isabella IS a slut so why the offense at a stated fact she herself enforces? Zevran is also a slut, not everyone insists on genderfying their viewpoints (tis rather silly like saying men can't be beautiful).

She is neither strong or confident. She hides behind random sex the way Alistair hides behind his jocularity in DA:O. The difference being That Alistair has real reasons, which unless they intend to do so serious back origins on her, she most certainly does not. And before you try to say she does have the reason of having hurt one guys feelings that fell for her? Really? ONE? And retreats to that? Then let me add a new list of insults to her: candy-ass. If that truly bothers you, you learn from things like that and move on, not turn into a door knob.

And I hate to burst your bubble but there is a huge difference between someone enjoying sex and being a slut. Anyone who walks around talking like that and admits to having no regard for whether or not they catch diseases is a slut. I agree that whore doesn't apply as she isn't paid for her acts.

I wouldn't be caught dead hanging around a person like her in RL for her other personality traits either. Shallow, self centered, and a walking Drama-waiting-to-happen? No thank you.Vhardamis (talk) 01:59, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, but you did, my bubble is so sore and burst because of you. Being able to find humor or pleasure through tragedy is "hiding". You're absolutely right, we should all shed the pleasure of laughter and orgasm and...um, what were you offering in trade? I'm sure it was better than that. I'm sure that I'd be able to see the world oh so clearer without a gratifying end goal, so surely you have something to replace that? DokEnkephalin (talk) 02:49, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

@OP: I'm sorry but are you a girl? If there is a proper term to address a male slut, I will give it to Zevran. Or should I call him a man-slut? Isabella IS a slut (whore, etc.) and that's a fact. She is proud of it so it's just natural that people call her by that name. Both Zevran and Isabella are whores, they love sex, they sleep with whoever they want. They are real definition of "whore". I don't hate them, I don't hate prostitutes either. But honestly, sex is interesting and fun if you say it in innuendos like Zevran. "That's it? What about sex?" is really not my type. Hpa tqn (talk) 02:47, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

I believe society holds women to higher standards than men- they are expected to be "pure", while most men are considered to be pigs... When a lady breaks the mold and acts like a pig- the world points fingers. Why should we celebrate bad behavior in any person- regardless of sex? Isabella is not helping anyone by sleeping with (almost) every man she sees. A person like Isabella is on a self destructive path and is probably not a happy person on the inside. The world views her as a freak (Oh look its that easy pirate hooker) -and no one takes her seriously- even with all her fancy fighting ability... She does deserve the ridicule if she continues to behave this way. Defend her all you like but opinions will not change much... her actions are not easily justifiable. She is a good person deep down but dosen't care about what the world thinks. The world is cruel- a lesson well learned by anyone. 72.181.238.191 (talk) 03:17, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

I think you just proved my point by attaching a moral judgment to having sex. Having sex indiscriminately is NOT inherently "bad." It may be dangerous for various reasons, but not necessarily, as a person could be indiscriminate about a person's looks but not about other things. Whether or not YOU think her behavior is (morally) bad is your own issue and has no bearing on anyone else.69.146.172.126 (talk) 20:58, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

I agree whole heartedly with the original posters thoughts. It is a bit a double standard, and the only reason double standards exist is because people allow them to exist. They feel it is easier to label women who sleep around as whores/sluts and so forth while men who do the same are seen as just being men. Double standards are an easy cop out and a sorry excuse. However, there were a few points in the game where the characters themselves referred to her as a slut, one moment I remember was when Aveline was trying to get Donnic's attention. Some banter back and forth and Aveline called her a whore. So, the game world also labels her as such. I on the other hand see her as a beautiful woman who is just looking for companionship and she takes that however it presents itself. And as the song goes she finds it in all the wrong places. She just wants someone to love her.--Rob.m.hunter (talk) 03:22, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. It's nice to see that at least a few people got my point. I'm so bloody sick of people pretending that "slut" is a connotatively neutral term with no derogatory implications.

people slam her for being a slut because we're on an rpg forum, and theyre all jealous virgins —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.210.65 (talk)

Don't blame Isabela. She is a victim. Like many characters, places, and events in DA2, she was caught in an unexpected epidemic of shallow writer's fever. Her prognosis for future recovery is uncertain at this point. Shallow writer's fever is often fatal. Characters that do survive the illness often never fully recover. Our thoughts and best wishes are with Isabela during this difficult time. WarPaint (talk) 04:17, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Right, weep for her, do. Weep for personalities that could never exist in reality for reasons that haven't been explained to you personally, and accuse someone else of shallowness when they do appear in fiction. DokEnkephalin (talk) 04:24, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't think people like "man-sluts". They just don't care. But I see your point. Yes, women are figures of mothers, of faithfulness, of purity (not so much nowadays), they're supposed to be caring, etc. That's why we favor women. Sometimes, people think so highly of them, and when a woman doesn't meet those standards, well you know what happens. We men are, just like someone said, thought to be mostly pigs anyway. Should people stop insulting sluts someday (sorry I can't find a proper word here), you know that women are not respected anymore. Sorry for talking too much, I was thinking of my girl ;) Hpa tqn (talk) 04:26, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Um. You're kidding, I hope. Calling women sluts is NOT an indication that "some" "good" or "proper" or "nice" or "well-behaved" women are respected. The very fact that women are considered sluts for sleeping around, whereas men are just considered normal men doing normal men things, indicates that women are NOT respected. Putting women on pedestals as "figures of mothers, of faithfulness, of purity" is NOT a sign that women are respected. It's a sign that women are dehumanized--i.e. they are not allowed to be ordinary human beings. Otherwise, they wouldn't be labeled with hateful terms the moment they behave like human beings always do. If women ever are no longer referred to as sluts for engaging in the same behavior as men can "get away with" without the name-calling, THAT will be a sign that women are finally being respected as human beings. 69.146.172.126 (talk) 20:58, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. I don't know. If you're annoyed over this fact, how can you live? They're not just calling Isabella (a virtual girl) slut, but many other -sluts- sluts as well. Just one question: Is Isabella NOT a slut? Hpa tqn (talk) 21:30, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'm a bit offended that it is assumed that guys sleeping around is socially "normal" and considered "okay." I've never cheated on anyone and never would, but I hear the "you're a man" criticism all the time. I now work in a field that is comprised mostly of women, and let me tell you, women are every bit as dirty as men. They talk more about sex than men. They are far more descriptive than men. Most guys keep their sex lives private. There are the outliers of course; they act macho and talk a big game, but honestly, most of them are full of crap. I think men and women are equally capable of being sluts. However, the female sluts are less open about it. Therefore, it is the perception that there are fewer female sluts, so when one is actually open and honest about it, they appear to be more of a freak. It's all a perception problem. Even in the animal kingdom, the male calls more attention to himself. Male birds and fish are more colorful, and females are of muted colors. Males need to stick out for sexual success. Thanks to testosterone, the female just needs to be available, in order to succeed. LVTDUDE (talk) 22:34, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Agree with you there. I'm not okay with "manslut" at all. They're usually d****, I've seen too many. Hpa tqn (talk) 00:27, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

Its easy for a women to sleep around and be a 'whore' However for men its very diffrent, you never see any ugly male 'players' but you do see plenty of women who are 'whores' and are infact ugly

Well, Zevran and Isabela are a pretty good example of highly promiscuous people. Zevran is basically a sociopath, much like every manwhore I've ever met, and Isabela is the kind of damaged goods that should send any sane man running for the hills. 70.124.73.220 (talk) 21:01, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Why are you getting so angry over a virtual woman

• eyeroll* I*'m not angry over a virtual woman, I'm irritated over the typical response far too many people have to the idea of a woman having sex on her own terms. And if you're going to ask me why I'm so angry over a virtual woman, I have to ask you, did YOU ask that question in any of the ten million threads devoted to the very, VERY impassioned responses to Anders?69.146.172.126 (talk) 21:22, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

No because I don't spend all of my days going around forums checking for character 'hate' threads? Also, may I add that in my opinion you are arguing over her because your jumping to a characters defensive.. *snigger* by getting all displeased (referring to last post) because I asked why were you were angry. In my opinion, you seem angry and I think it's because your not liking what other's opinion on the slut is. Had to say it. Charlotte cousland (talk) 21:52, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Here is a analogy a key that opens a lot of locks is called a master key but a lock that is opend by a lot of keys is a crappy lock.--Gabeert (talk) 21:17, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Haters gonna hate. That's my way of dealing with it.--Ekurian (talk) 21:29, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

People don't hate her, just like men don't hate prostitutes. Why hate those who can satisfy you? But if you're a slut, live with it. No need to defend yourself. 68.200.118.153 (talk) 21:36, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

@Original post. Yes I've called Isabela a 'Pirate slut', but only in a comical manner. I mean, I refer to Zevran as 'Puss in Boots' ALL the time, but if it wasn't that, it would probably be 'Manslut', because the term amuses me. And while yes she is a confident and strong woman, she isn't exactly hard to bed, but that would be her life choice. I'm not ACTUALLY fussed, it's just a silly name, for a fictional person. I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about. If it's about how men and woman are treated in society then yes, there is an imbalance in the regards to sex lives, and that's wrong, but hey I don't think men who sleep around are Gods to be worshipped anyway :P --Necrosis103 (talk) 00:05, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

My question is why are people getting so angry, defensive, and offensive over the dragon age characters? Don't get me wrong I love dragon age origins and 2 and that I really don't know the whole story as I'm too busy to really get on here more then once every few weeks, but seriously people, THEY ARE NOT REAL. The characters are nothing more bits of data lumped together. Grow up and get a life. All of you.

I return to the general tangent that she is in fact, full of diseases if the general talk of the game is right. Having kept her in my party most of the playthrough this time, she makes several references to STDs like she's experienced them, and even NPCs have banter saying she's got or had some type of "itch" for which she was renown for by sailors in a certain port. If people want to sleep around that's great, but when you start bringing home foreign organisms, you can't act like everything is "SUPER OK!" --Seroster 99.28.99.152 (talk) 02:01, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

Isabela is a hoebag and you know it.

"If a key opens many locks, that is the Master key. But if a Lock is opened by many keys, then thats a shitty lock."

It depends of course. Calling Isabela a slut in a humorous, good-natured way is ok. If you say "Isabela is our favorite slut", that's ok and she would like it herself. If you use it not in a humorous, good-natured way, it's a sexist insult. Saying "we call her a slut, because she IS a slut" is sexist, because "slut" is a sexist slur regardless of one's sexual behavior. It is never ok to call a black person (or anyone) "n*****" because that's a racial slur, even though it technically means "black person". And yes, this matters, although Isabela is an imaginary person. Because people who think bad of an imaginary person for doing imaginary things can be assumed to think equally bad of a real person doing those same things really. Concerning STDs Isabela might have acquired. Her ship wrecked, she is hunted by a gang of ruthless slavers and a Qunari army and she helps Hawke fighting darkspawn, blood mages, demons and a high dragon. But yeah, it's STDs that should concern her... A.Saturnus (talk) 11:49, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think you are missing the picture when you say that when a women like Isabella is a slut, then a man showing equivalent sexual behavior is also a slut.

There are different standards for men and women because they serve different purposes. The general female purpose is to find the most optimal male and have his children, the general male purpose is to make sure his seeds are as numerous and strong as possible. The female purpose is always in contrast to lose sexual behaviour, unlike the male purpose that are must more diffuse.

There are of course reasons to condemn even lose sexual behaviours for men. It would be in the best interest for other men and women in general if men did not sleep around as it increase competition and makes them less reliable as food/money provider.

But you see this is the thing. “a male slut” or a Casanova breaks the social optimal equilibrium, for the personal optimal equilibrium. Because of this he is a danger to society and the social order.

A real (female) slut on the other hand, is most of all a danger to herself. A Casanova is worthy of hatred for what he dares to do, but a slut is worthy only of disgust for what she has made herself into. She is like a broken knife, while he is a knife that courses others to rust.

You can try to complicate things as much as you want, and you can come with all sorts of theories of equivalent but it all boils down to the original purpose of the genders.

So is Isabella a slut?

Yes she diffidently is. That does not make her a whore, as that is a women that explicitly takes money for her services. And yes it is a negative word and it is judgemental. But it is fair to use it for that kind of behaviour is purely objectively worthy of scorn.

That doesn’t mean that that she isn’t an interesting character however. In fact it makes her more interesting as we here have a companion with a real and serious problem, but that is another discussion entirely. ---rphb- (talk) 13:26, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

The correct biological term is "function" not "purpuse" and it is questionable to apply it to genders because genders are actually sort of an accidental by-product of sexual reproduction.

But even if, it is morally and intellecutally wrong to justify scorn with evolution and borders on social darwinism. It may be counter-productive for her genes to not invest in few, chosen mating partners, but then again, so is wrestling high dragons.

None of this justifies to call someone a slut. A.Saturnus (talk) 13:48, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

This all just sounds like an awful lot of whining to me... but no-one asked I suppose. Just sharing my opinion. (DDragonfly1990 (talk) 13:30, April 20, 2011 (UTC))

13:34, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

First off I'm a girl, I usually have no problem with strong female characters at all. In fact I find it fun, and whilst I don't really have any lesbian tendencies to them I did like the "best friend" vibe with Isabela. She used to be one of my favourite characters.

What I didn't like was how she pretty much screws you over for a bloody book and runs off. Even if you are a good friend she just takes it, runs, granted she comes back but I didn't know that. It just left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I've never been able to atomach her since. Fine she didn't want to die, nor did the whole city of people she left behind before having a change of heart.

So yeah, that's my reason. I literally went from adoring my fellow fun loving girl to just resenting her in a second >.>

Loriane (talk) 13:34, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

@Saturnus

First of all I am not a social Darwinist, I just argued from that perspective to make it more simple for the laymen.

Second I used “purpose” deliberately to distinguish from the purely Darwinists view, as my argumentations is founded in essentialism and teleology. For simplicity sake just think of the Qun.

I would not be so arrogant however that I or anyone can assign someone a place. All have a purpose (to say given by God is again a simplification, but lets just go with that). The purpose of life is to apply yourself to that role and doing your duty. In so doing you can find happiness, not as a mean, nor as an end, but merely as a sideproduct. There is no negative ideals or purposes, all things negative are deviants from the ideals, but I digress.---rphb- (talk) 14:12, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, then I misunderstood you, or rather mis-categorized you.

If a purpose of life is part of your philosophy than I can accept that (though I disagree with the concept). If we assume that such a purpose exists, I can agree that Isabela probably fails it. She is a hurt human being who hides her pain behind a hedonistic exterior and emotional blandness.

However, although criticizing Isabela's behavior on the basis of this philosophical proposition is sensible, rendering the critique in form of a sexist slur is still wrong. Not as wrong as invading a city and beheading its viscount, but still bad ;) A.Saturnus (talk) 14:55, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

@Loriane: Her resolution with Castille left the impression that she does have a set of principles, in spite of her protests. I'm sure she's capable enough of defending her life that it would not have been her primary concern. It showed that she placed importance in honoring an agreement with another Captain, especially an obligation imposed by an embarrassing prior failure. So she takes a lot of pleasure in being able to get something over his head, and having him under her thumb for a change. Her own code of honor isn't there to serve everyone; that Hawke can get a level of respect or attraction from her to forfeit that is something the player has to achieve. DokEnkephalin (talk) 16:18, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

@Saturnus

Okay then I would like you to define to me what you consider “sexist slur”. Different types of people have different purposes. There are general purposes (that include all from a certain category) and there are individual purposes (which is a kind of hidden category that is impossible to determine beforehand). Women/men is one of the strongest distinctions so of course there are general purposes directed to men, and general purposes directed to women, and these are necessarily not identical.

Men and women are biologically and psychological very different. A key feature of my philosophy is that you must accept the differences and not try to suppress them by pulling a general standard over their head that they must all obey to. Different expectations and different standards to different types of people.---rphb- (talk) 08:22, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Your different expectations may or may not be sexist, that's beside the point now. The point is that "slut" is not a descriptive term, it is a normative one. "Slut" is a sexist slur because it is a pejorative used to insult women. That one might use it also for men doesn't change that, because it is still commonly understood as female. A.Saturnus (talk) 10:18, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

It is objectively negative to act in a certain way, and if a person acts that way you have the right to judge them acordingly.I am not completely sure I understand your point. Are you telling me that you consider it wrong to judge people based on what they do? ---rphb- (talk) 10:33, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, I do that myself. I call people sexist who do sexist things. Like calling a woman "slut". If you're ok with being recarded as sexist, go ahead.

You can say that Isabela is promiscuous, alright. You can also find that wrong. You can also believe that it is more wrong for a woman to be promiscuous, than for a man, for whatever reason. But "slut" is an insult and that's a "no-no". That's why I may call people sexist, but not sexist scumbags. A.Saturnus (talk) 11:33, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Words come in two categories: Descriptive words that refer to some to some empirical a posteriori phenomenon outside language, and words that describe a logical a priori relation.

Calling a person that believes in Communism for a communist is purely descriptive. Calling a person that does not believe in communism a communist because you do not like the person is misuse of the language and only shows that you do not truly understand the meaning of the word.

The same goes for slut. Some people are sluts, or more precisely acts like sluts, other people do not. Calling a person that acts like a slut for a slut is descriptive, calling a person that does not act like a slut for a slut is language misuse.

The very fact that there is a judgement to the word is an unavoidable fact, as a word is in it self a classification and thereby a judgement. Therefore I can only repeat that I do not understand what you mean when you say that the usage of the word "slut" is a "no-no", or how you precisely define the category "sexist".---rphb- (talk) 11:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Then you do not understand the linguistic function of insults. Some descriptions are insults only if applied counterfactual, but some words are offensive even if true. You may not find "slut" offensive, but if you use it in real life in public I, most women, their lawyers and judges who may fine you for it, see that differently. As long as you hide behind the anonymity of the internet, one can only appeal to your decency though, if you have such. A.Saturnus (talk) 13:44, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It comes to to an evolutionary predisposition. With early humans the strongest men got to mate with whomever they wanted to improve the gene pool. The same thing is still stuck in the male brain. I'm not saying its right, thats just how it is. Zakhynes (talk) 12:00, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

LOLWTF? What in Christ's name does this have to do with the topic? YuriKaslov (talk) 14:17, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I am not an American, my nation practice Civil Law, not Common Law. Lawsuits are rare in my nation, primoraly because we do not consider people to be idiots.

"Do not put living creatures in this microwave oven as doing so would kill it"

"Eating an excessive amount of unhealthy food without excessing will make you fat"

"Do not use the coffeemaker in your moterhome while driving as someone must always be behind the wheel"

Are things that the producers do not put in their manuals as it is considered evident. However there is a general rule that states that grossly reckless behaviour is not liable for compensation, without the need to specify what grossly reckless means.

No one would win a case for slander for calling a public figure a slut, if they acted as for instance Paris Hilton. However we did have a funny case of a man suing a famous politician for publicly calling him an insane psychopath. The man serves life in prison convicted for the brutal triple murder of his wife, his mother and his daughter. It should not surprise you that he did not win the lawsuit, nor that he had lived several years in America.

But if we go back to the linguistic function of an insult then yes, I do understand what that mean. An insult a real insult is to point out a real and fatal flaw in a person. It is discriminative as it describe something about the other person that they do not like about themselves, in a way that does not help them deal with. It is not an insult in and of itself to call someone a slut. If the intention behind it is as a friend to help them, it because a tool for healing, for them to admit that they are a slut. for as you know to admit that you have a flaw is the fist step to curing it. It is equivalent with telling someone that drinks extensively that they are and alcoholic. It is negative, but like pain, it is also sometimes necessary.

@YuriKaslov We need to properly define the meaning of the word "slut".---rphb- (talk) 14:41, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You're responding to the wrong post, bro. YuriKaslov (talk) 14:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Was probably directed at me. Neither am I an American. For some reason celebrities are considered fair game in such things. That has nothing to do with their sex life. You could call Queen Elizabeth a slut and would likely be safe. But this has also nothing to do with absurd lawsuits. In probably all Western countries, women can and have sued over sexist insults and won.

Discussing the definition of "slut" is pointless. Everyone with a grasp of the English language knows that it is an insult. Every dictionary names it an insult. In fact, I feel like I'm explaining you that the sky is blue. A.Saturnus (talk) 21:48, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

But what about when the person being called a "slut" decides to use it as a... moniker or compliment, I guess, for themselves? How much of an insult could something possibly be if the person it is directed at views it as a positive thing? Now, I don't recall if Isabela ever did that, but if she did then things seem to be more ambiguous than people would like to make them... Yuri^{(Leave a message!)} 21:52, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Just gonna add my little bit.I dont think Isabela really cared wat people said bout her(real life or in game) ,Just think of her conversations with Aveline.BTW easily my favourite character in the game.(romanced twice :L)Dragon Reborn (talk) 20:30, April 21, 2011 (UTC)