Forum:Unpopular characters in DA that you like.

Forums: Index > Lore DiscussionUnpopular characters in DA that you like.

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I happen to like Isolde, for quite a few reasons, but I'm just curious if there are any other odd ducks out there who happen to like characters that you wouldn't expect. 110.55.130.121 (talk) 11:35, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I very much liked the Arishok: "FIXING YOUR MESS IS NOT A DEMAND OF THE QUN!". I also always liked Cullen, even when he was a basket case in the Circle Tower in Ferelden. I also liked Ser Cauthrien, from that moment in Ostagar when she realizes what the Teryn meant to do. You can see she wasn't party to his plot in the surprise and disgust in her reaction. I really hoped at some point there would be a chance to get her to stand up to Loghain, but it didn't happen. In her backstory, I guess that makes sense, but even Loghain's own daughter throws him under a bus when given the chance. Loghain deserved the daughter he got in Anora, but Cauthrien was too good for him. --+|| Legionnaire Scout -- talk ||+ 12:32, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

It depends much on what is defined as "unpopular". Because 'LegionnaireScout', has chosen the Arishok, and his unpopularity can only come from the fact that he is one of the major antagonists of the games. As a character though, he was well voiced and very believable. If it's along those lines, then I would pick Knight Commander Meredith - and to quote her "If you cannot tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!".

On a different level, I would say Merill. I know that allot of people find her irritating, but I can't help but like her Innocent nature coupled with her lack of understanding about the corruption of blood magic. Plus their is the fact that she is voiced by Eve Myles, who plays Gwen Cooper in Torchwood.

I also found it hard, in the end not to like, and respect Loghain. My warden, and he fundamentally were very alike. King Callin was a fool, who didn't deserve to be King. Arl Eamon shouldn't continue to try to maintain his blood line, when their isn't anything good about it. What got me is, why A. My female Cousland Warden had no say in the landsmeet, despite in the absence of her brother her being the Teryn of Highever. And B. the fact that it was never suggest nor aloud that she take the throne in her own right. People said that her father would have made a better king than Calin. And she was of pureblooded noble linage as ancient and respected as Calins. And yet Eamon didn't even consider her a possible candidate. Alister was a bastered, Annora was neo-nobility - and yet they were the only choices. But yeah, Logain, in the end did want was best for Fereldon and Calin defently wasn't.

Taken from a left-field, finally a character you wouldn't expect would have to be Sister Theohild, the women who substitues religious words for food when speaking the chant of light. "The Veal holds no uncertainty for her, and she will know no fear of death, for the Maker shall be her bacon and her shield, her foundation and her--". Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:SithEmblemTOR.PNG 13:53, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

As a warden your noble has no claim to the throne you leave your life behind to become a warden.--99.248.206.211 (talk) 05:29, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

If you don't think there's anything great about the bloodline of Maric the Savior, Moira the Rebel Queen, and Calenhad the Silver Knight, you make thee average tree stump seem like Carl Sagan. HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 15:18, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Loghain is a Teyrn and does not vote, either, and neither does Eamon - it seems that the contending parties are barred from vote.

As for Cousland's right to the throne, this is about the succession line: they are not of Calenhad's lineage, and they have absolutely no legal claim to the throne. In a situation when there are no direct heirs, a bastard or a spouse who has been a successful co-ruler are still more plausible claimants than anyone else, no matter the status. - Not to mention that proclaiming yourself without gathering support first would do no good. --Ygrain (talk) 05:40, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Your right, I suppose, on some level. Although the terms of the Landsmeet means that a "noble" must gather support from the Banorn in order to receive and retain the throne, hence any claim with support is "legal" or legitimate. Bryce Cousland did have a notible level of support from the Banorn, with many thinking he would be a better King than calin, whist we dont know how high (or whether he would have accepted his nomination) that does make the Couslands a legitimate choice. Spouses or bastereds have as in direct claim as another noble does, hence why the landsmeet decided rather than the line of sucsession. Anora is also a commoner, many thought her infidelity was a punshiment from the maker for putting a commoner on the throne. We don't know that Eamon or Loghain don't vote, remember that we didn't see every person in the chamber vote. For the good of Ferelon, the best outcome is Anora and Cousland on the throne, for if there isn't a powerplay, Fereldon enters a new golden age not seen since Calanhad. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:SithEmblemTOR.PNG 15:40, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

When everybody was pledging their supports in the Landsmeet, I always wanted the opportunity to say: "Highever stands with the Grey Wardens!". That would have made my day. Mandalore 20:27, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

In DA:O I've always had an unlikely softspot for Anora, and usually support her bid for the Throne. I tend not to harden Alistair and I've always thought Anora is more of a victim than a scheming witch. --NickyStuu (talk) 14:26, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Tekka Ijuin | Talk

14:29, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I too am a big fan of Ser Cauthrien, in my first playthrough of Origins I remember being so relieved and glad that I was given the choice to avoid having to fight her. She is definitely my favourite NPC in Origins, and I personally wish she had been recuitable because she did deserve so much better than she got (also, she has such a pretty voice :P). I also really like Petrice, sure she's a complete bitch and I disapprove of some of the things she does, but nevertheless I do find myself liking her quite a lot. Oh, and of course I absolutely love Velanna. In fact, to be honest there are a lot of characters that I like that can be classed as unpopular in one way or another, so I'll just leave it that. Violet Rogue (talk) 15:37, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Does Anders count? Here's everyone's all "Wah terrororrist!", but on Bioware's Spastic Network his fangirling thread is so massively ~*squee*~ I'm getting teeth cavities by merely clicking on it. Nonetheless, I like both Isolde and Anora, too. Isolde is essentially ultimate mama bear, I love mama bears. Anora is Machiavellian politician who's also a beautiful, smart woman. In her place, I'd have denied connection with the Warden in the Howe incident, too. Dorquemada (talk) 15:49, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm an Anora fan too. But I'll go with Carver. It sounds like most people here think he's an annoying, whiny, selfish prick. And he kinda is on some levels. But I find him to be a very sympathetic character because his entire life is defined an overshadowed by what Hawke does. I can't blame him for being angry and frustrated that he has almost no control over his own life. It's gotta suck having your life defined by being Hawke's brother and everything you will ever do will pale in comparison to that fact. TKismyname (talk) 16:27, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sigrun. She isn't hated, but rather ignored. I'm also a big fan of Merrill. --Appleseater (talk) 16:53, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I agree I like that umlike Velanna whom constantly B***** about how all humans are evil and blahblabblabala. Sigrun is more practical, plus as someone whom is in the legion of the dead, She is very perky.--SirXblade (talk) 20:00, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I'll admit I'm not an Isolde hater. Yeah, she did incredibly stupid things, but she did them in what she thought was in the best interests of her child. And being willing to sacrifice herself to save Connor gives her lots of points in my book.

And like @TKismyname, I'll go with Carver, too, for many of the same reasons. One reason I like Legacy so much is it's an adventure I can take in Acts 2 or 3 with Carver. Gruedragon (talk) 17:46, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Seconding that on Isolde. She is nowhere next to likeable, and definitely stupid, but, yeah, the sacrifice improves her standing with me a lot.

Whom I really like is Cauthrien - I am even willing to forgive her that she dragged my Warden to Fort Drakon. She is in a really difficult position: owing all she has ever been to Loghain, and watching her hero slowly becoming a twisted caricature of himself. I was glad to be able to make her step down. What happened to her afterwards, I wonder? --Ygrain (talk) 05:40, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

The game doesn't seem to be very sure what happens to Cauthrien - although her codex says she was killed if you beat her in a fight, she still appears at the wardens funeral if Loghain also survived. As I also like Cauthrien, I prefer to think she survived (if I didn't get her to stand down) and continued to serve in the Ferelden army. --TheTeaMustFlow(talk) 08:45. Oct 2, 2011, GMT

Strangely enough, the moment before killing him, I actually felt sorry for Loghain and somehow understood that he only did what he felt he had to do.Noctarius (talk) 10:43, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Not many people on here seem to like Isabela, whereas she's probably my favourite character in 2. S13Kuro [talk] 12:11, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Loghain and Aruishok are actually two of my favourite characters. --Cpt. Miller (talk) 13:09, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Seba—Okay, I can’t even lie in typing. I still love DA2 Anders {I feel a need to specify because that’s the one everyone seems to rag on} Fan-girling aside, I understand him. He’s snippy and abrasive to all of the other companion characters because who in the world can he trust? I’ve always thought it was rather out of character for both Avaline and Fenris to stand back and never turn him in, regardless of Avaline knowing he was helping people and Fenris not wanting to be turned back in as a slave; her great sense of justice and his ‘slaves and mages being captive are completely different’ could kick into over-drive at any minute and he’d turned into a zombie in seconds {with his record of escapes there’s no way he’d just be taken in}. When characters prove they can actually be trusted {Hawke} he’s a total sweet-heart and a fantastic friend. Secondly, Carver. Most people seem to be Bethany fans {for personality or boobs, I do not know} but the only people I know that are as kind and sweet as she is are actually the most two-faced people I know who are actually the cruelest to not only people they dislike but their own friends. Carver, I get. Sure, he complains a bit more than need be because his sibling is the ‘talented’ one, but he’s talented as well, just no one is giving him any recognition, I’d be frustrated too. But he jokes, he gets upset, he apologizes, and at times can really enjoy what he’s doing (Grey Warden Carver to be sure, he’s in part of a secret order that he can lord over his sibling!) and just seems more... Human, to me than Bethany does. I think that’s it... Someone said they like Cullen, and I do to, but I don’t know many people that vocally dislike him. Mrs.AlistairTheirin 14:23, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I'm really tempted to say Hawke here, but I think I'll leave that one alone. ;) Can't really think of any unpopular characters from Origins that I like right now. From DA2: I like Isabella, Carver and Merril. All of witch seem to get a lot of heat. Andy the Black (talk) 14:43, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I'm also an Anora-fan, actually. I also have a soft spot for Loghain. in Dragon Age 2 it's probably Carver (I've always preferred him to Bethany.)--Jaarlitar (talk) 19:56, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Anora and Loghain are the most prominent ones from Origins. From DAII, I'd go with Meredith. While she was mad and over-zealous, I also felt like she was also a victim, left scarred by a dementing childhood experience. She seemed so...alone, and appeared to genuinely regret what she felt she had to do. King Cousland | Talk   20:15, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Like the others I am also an Anora and Loghain fan. They have a very deep reasons on why they become like what they are now. Anora was a strong woman who don't want to be controlled by her husband Cailan. That's why she is so dependent to herself and doesn't want to help others. While Loghain in the other hand is willing to do everything to save his people that he even abandon Cailan because he sees that Cailan is an unworthy to be a King and that Cailan would self-destruct Ferelden if he continues not taking his position seriously.    Asteral9 | Talk  20:46, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Velanna. I honestly have no rational explanation as to why I like her(If I had to guess, I'd say the fact that my character in the first playthrough of Awakening had been abandoned by his lover and was never the kind of guy to care about extra-romantic activities[read bigamy], and she was the only party member I could stand to look at.), but I never really got angry at her for distusting humans. Let's face it, the humans have been complete dicks to the elves, and she was led to believe that humans had killed her sister. Other than that, I always liked Cauthrien for her loyalty to what she believed. --CommanderCousland (talk) 21:28, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I know many people dislike Merril, and I do dislike how they completely changed her in Da2 but ignoring that I love the character. People say she is naive but she is well aware of the dangers of what she is doing going as far as to ask others to kill her if worst comes to worst, her problem is that no one trusts her and people like the keeper go and get and get themselves killed for her sake. Not that she inspires much faith so I can't really blame them too much but underneath the weak exterior she is quite strong and doesn't need to be babied. I also love how she responds to the typical "blood magic is evil" and the whole demons chantry spiel from characters like anders and fenris. She is naive about more normal matters though and thus is quite adorable, it's also awesome to watch the cute little thing explode when people do try to baby her like if you withhold that tool.174.45.9.40 (talk)

Gorim. --ShiftyApparition (talk) 22:15, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I would have to say Carver. I didn't like him at first because of his attitude towards me being older and a mage. But when I did a playthrough were he became a Grey warden my feelings toward him changed. At the end when I sided with the mages (which I always do) the convo that me and him had showed me that he had changed and didn't have really that much hatred towards me. Then when I played through legacy as him being a warden it made me like him even more. It was his whole attitude after he bacame a warden that did it for me. Emmalee (talk) 01:48, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I would also have to say I liked Isabela. She was so hilarious and have great sense of humor. I always love the comic reliefs in games and I saw her as one. But the biggest one for me...probably Bodhan. I always loved it when I saw him appear. 71.214.24.206 (talk) 02:31, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I like Merrill. It took some time to like her, but I think that at least with Merrill, even though she knows that what she's doing is wrong, and can be considered "evil" she still does what she's intended to do. She has a path and she follows it, even though it's a bad one. Unlike Anders, she knows that ALL spirits/demons are evil, and she's not hypocritical like Anders and Fenris. (Dont get me wrong I like them all.) Other than that I like Loghain. Strangely. What he did wasn't right, and nothing can justify it but he had a goal and he was doing what he thought was right in his head. I felt a little bad killing him, and reading his past made me grow a soft spot for him. --Tsukahime (talk) 08:00, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

While he's not exactly unpopular Anders from DA2, I like him a lot more than Awakening's version as I've just gotten back to Awakening after a few months and after DA2 4-5 times. Awakening Anders while funny is a bit of a dick with his tone about his mage issues that are present in Awakening, maybe just Greg Ellis's voice maybe that makes me like him less (heard him a too much in the Main Campaign as random NPCs and Cullen, and twice in the stone prisoner, damnable lazy DA:O DLC) anyway... He has mostly the same battle cries in Awakening that he does in DA2 but Adam Howden does a much better job with him, in direct comparison. My mage F!Hawke's always give it up for Anders. Tommyspa (talk) 08:15, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Anders is my favorite character in the franchise, Zevran is my nigga, dawg, I think the Arishok is great. "Friend and enemy blend together in this sea of filth. I can barely discern one group from another. But.. As this clearly means something to you, I acknowledge the risk taken," one of my favpritee lines. Bhelen, I think too. And.. a lot of people seem to dislike Oghren, fuck those people. HomelyDrugAddict (talk) 15:12, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

From Origins, I have to say that I liked Loghain. At first I was thinking, "You bastard! How could you leave us all to die?!" But after thinking it over during the course of the game, I think Loghain really was trying to protect the throne from what he thought were the incapable hands of Cailan. I think he truly believed that asking for help from the Orlesians would result in another war, and anyone who played the DLC Return to Ostagar knows that Cailan had indeed contacted the Orlesians for assistance against the blight. I don't think Loghain could take seeing Fereldan occupied once again, and he did what he thought was right, even if it caused much more death than was necessary.

As for DA2, I'd pick both Anders and Merrill. A lot of people hate Anders for what he did at the end of Act 3. I don't. I saw a person who was pushed to the brink, and when his leader (Orsino) was unwilling to protect the mages from Meredith's wrath, he stepped in to force change. I agree with Anders that there was no possibility for negotiation, and that's why I understand his actions. Merrill I like just because you can see the blind determination she has to reclaim elvhen history, and like a teenager takes every criticism and throws it away, convinced of her own rightness. Only after seeing the pain and death caused by her actions, which were predicted all along by everyone around her, does she open her eyes and truly realize she was wrong. I like seeing Merrill come to this realization, especially in a rivalmance. --Atradia (talk) 16:27, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, why do you think an apostate ex-Grey Warden would consider the First Enchanter his leader? And Orsino wasn't unwilling, he was ineffectual due to Meredith having too much power and the Grand Cleric not stepping up. Gruedragon (talk) 17:58, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

I've always loved Bann Ceorlic and his "I st-st-stand by Looooooghaaaain! Wuh-wuh-we've no chance of victory, otherwise!" Looking at his picture, on the wiki, right now... and that guy over his left shoulder looks a whole lot like a younger Arl Howe Futonrevoltion (talk) 23:50, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Isolde. Well mainly because when she talks it makes me laugh. I like to laugh at pixels tis fun. :P But on a more better note. Anders what he did at the last part of the end act was how can i say this. Pretty cool looking? The Chantry never did anything for me, so I thought well what the hell. And if another Archdemon decides to show its face again well make that same thing again, and blow it sky high in style :]--XOAeros (talk) 12:29, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly? I don't mind Sebastian all that much, in fact I quite like him.... Admittedly I haven't hit Act 3 yet but despite the fact he's a bit of a maker botherer I fins him to be a rather nice guy. - Luke1608

Ser Perth! He was so sweet and a gentleman. Wish my warden could flirt with him....if I had been in there I would have given him a kiss myself! The way he talks to the warden and what he says, just makes him a character I like. Plus, Seamus. I liked how he stood up for what he believed in, even if people didnt like it. AFreeMarcher (talk) 18:15, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

I'm with those who say Loghain and Anora whilst understanding those who detest them. I actually set it up in my game so I saved Loghain so I could sacrifice him and you find that he admits himself he made a huge mistaktes in letting his paranoia about the Orlesisans get the better of him and given that Cailen was flirting with the Empress he wasn't entirely without justificaction especially since it a betrayal of Anora too- in that the abandonment of Cailen to die was almost justified it was everyone else who died that was the tragedy especially Duncan (I didn't play a noble so the slaughter of the Couslands doesn't come into it) but he seems to acknowledge this and is willing to die to pay for his mistakes. I found myself liking his straightforwardness and I think some of what he did may have down to the influence of that slimeball Howe who may have encouraged Logahin 's paranoia for his own ends - I'd put nothing past him. Loghain struck me as a warrior who wasn't really suited to be a politican unlike his daughter. Anora is a cold person and a supreme pragmist who will do what will get the job done and retain her position but she isn't evil and I think someone who doesn't what to be side-lined because she's wasn't born a man or because of the actions of her husband and father is understandable - she's one hell of a public speaker and gives glory where glory is due after the battle. I do think I did the right thing in marriaging her to Alister - he is her complimentary opposite and has the heart, warmth and willingness to the unpopular thing if it's right that she lacks and if you harden him he learns much from her shrewdness and willingness to act upon what she thinks needs to be done.

I liked Anders and I think he's a man dirven to do a desparate thing as no one seems to be doing anything to stand up for his people. He acknowledges himself that it may not be right but he can't see another way. Merril is a contradiction but she's meant to be I loved her (for all the reasons others do) and at times wanted to slap her (for all the reaons she's hated) and I think she was a well designed character in that respect.

Ser Pedantic

Fenris, Arishok, Anders, Sebastian to some degree. Xelestial (talk) 19:05, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

I love the Arishok... and even though what Anders does pisses me off and bothers me to no end, I find his character incredibly intriguing. He is an incredibly interesting character, especially if you consider him in Awakening and how he has changed... I don't know if he counts though, since there are plenty of people who love him out there... I would have to say Meredith. She's a crazy bitch, but a bad-ass crazy bitch. And in Origins... I don't know really... I would have to say Logain.--Ser Mea (talk) 16:43, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Merrill, for all the reasons stated above, and because she is so damn cute! Also, she's the only romance option in DA 2 that's isn't all melodrama. Andres and Fenris are both "don't love me, I'll hurt you, I'm evil, you're too good for me!" and Isabela goes out of her way to declare that love isn't for her by over sexualizing everything. Merrill is sweet, honest, and accepts Hawke's affection at face value. She's like Alistair in that sense, which is somewhat ironic given that the two would probably hate each other. --Sandal Amell (talk) 19:18, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I actually thought Isabela's romance was such a relief after doing Anders' and Fenris several times. It seemed so simple and sweet, though of course not as easy as what I've seen of Merrill's, which is very endearing even if the girl drives me nuts sometimes. Xelestial (talk) 00:26, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, I think Flemeth was one of my favourite characters in the games. There is so much about her that we don't know, many rumours and mistruths but little fact. I will be interested to see if they reveal what she truely is in Dragon Age 3. I'm also a trekkie so its good to see/hear Captain Janeway without that Chakotay fellow hanging around (shame Tuvok and Reg Barclay are in though lol). I also liked Rendon Howe, and while his character was less complex than some others and seemed to be driven more by his greed and ambition, I felt he made for a mid-game good boss (especially for human noble characters). Zebramanii (talk) 02:30, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Of the party members, my favourite characters were Oghren & Leliana from Origins, Anders from Awakening/DA II and Varric and Anders in DA II. I enjoyed the conbversations with Oghren and his banter with the other party members. I thought Leliana was cute (partly due to the accent) while with Varric, I liked that even though his business dealings were not always above board, he was often looking out for the other party members. Anders I liked but I'm not quite sure why. At first I didn't like him that much but after playing Awakening and DAII he has started to grow on me. Zebramanii (talk) 02:30, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Sister Petrice. I like how dedicated she is. I like that she perfectly represents my views on the overzealeous. I like that she tells me where to go to kill that bastard tempar what's his name. I like how she stirs up Kirkwall to the point that Hawke can become the champion. I like her manner when she tries to hire darktown thugs. I like watching her almost get robbed in that alley. I really like watching her get reprimanded by the grand Cleric and I really LOVE watching her die. The only thing I really don't like about her is that I can't kill her. Yep, Petrice is all right in my book.--Isolationistmagi (talk) 02:42, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

It's DA2's Anders all the way for me. I think the reason many don't like him is the whole super-terrorist thing. We don't want Bin Laden or Timothy Mcveigh as a role model and Anders fits into that same mold. but despite the fact that Anders is funny, smart, romantic and yes.....sexy, he is a compelling character. I have always felt that DA2 is not about Hawke but about how Anders starts the war. Hawke has always seemed a facilitator to me. I usually romance Fenris but when he leaves, it's Anders I turn to. Great romance scenes! He has some great dialog in MOTA with a female Hawke lover that's fun too.

DA:O was Cullen even though I played as a mage and never sided with him, and I was a female so he had a crush on me which made me giggle. DA:O-A, Nathaniel I loved how much he hated me and I'd be as nice as pie! DA2 Andres, I'd forgive that man with his sad tortured look any day :P Can't help it complicated relationships with these pixelated men, is probably the only drama I can handle and do over and over again ;)  Hollowness | Talk | Contr 02:51, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I always tend to go with the 'whiny bitches' (as many call them) like Anders and Alistair. So I suppose they are kinda hated? Anyways, I think I have a weakness for men who actually shows there feelings. It's so cute! I must say that Cullen is also a favourite, because he had a crush on me, and was so shy, haha! (: But I really hate Anora! Even though I understand her, and it is hard with the father she has, but I just can't forgive her for trying to exile Alistair! I swear that if she did it, I would kill her and run off with my companions, including Alistair, and turn away from the Blight, so it would consume the land! Then I would have my vengeance! Buuuuuuuut, I'm too good hearted to risk innocent peoples lives. I would consider it though. Anyways, I also like Fenris even though I disagree completely with him. I've done so many things that I would only do for him. Isn't Jowan hated too? If so, I would say that I like him just fine. He did so many horrible things, but he did it to get away from the Circle. The way they keep the mages.. 'tis unfair. But that's another disscusion. (; --NanoNinja (talk) 21:26, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Nice thread:) My choices would be:

• Merrill. Can't possibly realize why so many people hate her. Blood magic - I see nothing wrong with blood magic, demon consorting - I would not recommend that, but sometimes desperate times need desperate measures. But the main point is that for me, Merrill brings the words 'cute' and 'adorable' to a whole new level:)
• Anders in DAII. People are quick to brand him a 'terrorist', even if there is no such thing as 'terrorism' in fictional Dragon Age universe. Mixing up a video game and real life is not a good idea. On the whole I do support his ideas and would change little, if my Hawke was aware of his plan. I'd just stash the bomb in another place, probably shoved it up Meredith's... throat.
• Velanna. Even my human Warden would be the first one to admit that most humans, well... are scum. The Dalish were deeply wronged, and I sympathize with them, and Velanna has every reason and right to hate human society, human culture and human religion - that doesn't mean she hates every single human in particular. It's a pity that the option to give the land to the Dalish is presented only to the Dalish Warden, as I would gladly chosen it with any other origin. And we do not see any possible result of this option in DAII.
• Finn and Ariane from Witch Hunt. They brought up a lot of warm feelings in me, despite their brief appearance. "I'm alive!!!" (after a fight) and ""Warden, your dog is lecturing me again" were great:) Sketch from Leliana's Song made a cameo in DAII, so I'd really like to see those two again.
• Seneschal Bran. Yes!!!:) Well, I don't like his personality really (good politicians are rarely good people), but I like to troll him with sarcastic Hawke's jokes and like the way he reacts. Also the references to Mass Effect's Ambassador Udina were good, reminding us that politicians are the same in any world - real, fantasy or sci-fi.-Algol- (talk) 22:46, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Terrorism : the systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion

Anders blew up a chantry (filled with preists and probley a few civilians) to start a war. Just a bit of juxtapstion for ya.CrowInvictus (talk) 12:29, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Good job, you've found a nice real-world definition of terrorism. Now please give me an example, where I could find a condemnation of killing civilians for some cause in a fictional Dragon Age universe. You know, fictional, with pixelated people, dragons flying around, magic and such. Even if Dragon Age universe is very loosely based on real-world medieval Europe, there never was a "terrorism" in medieval Europe. So please, stop mixing real life and video games, it's bad for your health.-Algol- (talk) 17:28, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

To clear-up, I don't confuse fiction with reality. However, terrorism is a conscept. An idea or a notion, something that is abstract. It can be applied to either fiction or reality. In fact part of the litercy art is the making of comments of ideas and conscepts.CrowInvictus (talk) 04:32, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Algol, I might point out that the ancient Romans didn't have a word for 'volcano' until Mount Vesuvius erupted, destroying Pompeii, yet still without a word, the Vesuvius still erupted, and it was still a volcano. Ergo the word and concept of terrorism is a farily modern one, yet it can easily be applied to historic and fictitious events that fits it definition. Alexsau1991 ^{(talk page)} File:SithEmblemTOR.PNG 02:04, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to interfere, guys, but there is a huge difference between using words such as "terrorism", "genocide" etc and, say, volcano. The difference is, the former are strongly emotionally charged. When you are arguing and using such words, your primary aim is to address the listener's emotions. It looks like this: "a is in A", "A is BAD", ergo "a is BAD". The opposite side will try to argue that "a is not in A", or "A is not what you think", because the notion "A is BAD" is forbidden to question. Alternatively, you can argue that "a is bad because..", judging the event on its individual merits. Personally, I think it is a better approach. Asherinka (talk) 08:44, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I know Flemeth and Morrigan aren't exactly unpopular, but they don't seem to be very well liked and they were 2 of my favorite characters. I don't think they're as evil as most seem to think. I still don't like Loghain but after recruiting him and getting to know him better I kinda agree with Anora about him. He was a good man consumed by fear of an old enemy and manipulated by an old friend. Cailan was a good man but not such a good king in my opinion. Unfortunately, it seems to be extremely difficult to be both a good person and a good ruler. Orzammar for example. Harrowmont was clearly the better man, but in the end I believe Bhelen made a much better king. I really liked Anders in DAA and I'm disappointed what they ended up doing with him in DA2. I was also glad I could talk Cauthrien into standing down and I wish I could've done the same for Landry, but at least he died in an honorable duel. Oghren, Zevran, Shale, Sigrun and Varric are also among my top favorites. I like where they're going with Sandal too. I hope he's recruit-able in DA3. Maybe if you import a save where the Warden was a Dwarf Noble they could have them meet again and investigate the possibility that they are half-brothers and possibly meet Sandal's mother. If Dagna got an Apostate Circle in Orzammar, maybe Sandal could even be the First Enchanter.

EDIT: I also liked Master Wade. He was funny, good at what he did and strangely overly modest. Gorim's cool too, kinda wish the Dwarf Noble could've recruited him. Master Ignacio's another one of my favorite minor characters. I love egging him on when he tries to be covert. One that I can't say I liked, but I thought he played his part very well was Vaughan Kendalls/Urien. I knew I wanted to kill him before he even opened his mouth. I had a bad feeling the first time I met Rendon Howe in Highever Castle but I didn't really want to kill him any more than Loghain until the dungeon of the Arl of Denerim's estate. Jowan was one I'm not sure if I like him but I do pity him. He just has a knack for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm also much more willing to look at the demons objectively than alot of people seem to be. They are spirits, in essence, the same as humans, dwarves, elves, korrith, etc. Some have just lost control of themselves to their desires, like Justice/Vengeance. Even non-native spirits of the Fade can become demons. The Baroness of the Blackmarsh for example and the woman in the shadowy crypt in the Blackmarsh Undying. They can be calmed too and turned back into 'ordinary'. They seem to lie about as much as mortals, maybe less even. They usually only kill for survival and I can hardly fault them for that. Few seem to be actually evil, most just seem curious about the mortal world just as mortals are curious about their world. Not saying demons are good but plenty are at least neutral it seems. --Vampire Damian (talk) 00:03, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Aveline: Because she may not be the best character in DA2, but she was the most DEVELOPED character: As soon as you meet people like Anders and Fenris for the first time, you already have a good picture of their personality and aims, which make some of their plot quests kinda unnecessary for character development and they become a little boring, but Aveline, she's like a childhood friend, you 'grow up' with her through trials and tribulations, from Donnic to Jeven.

Loghain: Because I can understand his goals and aims, but I dont agree with the execution of his plot: Arl Howe as a sidekick? Blood Mage to poison Arl Eamon? Abandoning many to die at Ostagar? Not very effective for winning support. But I do respect him for his volunteering to kill the Archdemon and atone for his sins through a heroic death.

Zevran: I will never understand the reason why THIS guy does not have a fan-girl movement, and yet, emo forever-alone douchebag Fenris and whiny,Justice-charged Anders do. I mean, he's everything a girl would want: Handsome, charismatic, charming, awesome accent, goes both ways, liberal, dark past.(Though I wouldn't know much about that since I'm a man XD)

Justice: I found his adventure and discoveries in the mortal world quite touching to be honest. And I would say that him experiencing the sins and vices of the mortal world, and yet Awakening passing those events as touching and enlightening, I feel that was quite a good job on the narrative's part.

Carver: I wouldn't say I like him cos I don't, but I COULD have liked him. How? If his jealousy and hatred of Hawke was played in a more subtle manner: They could have perhaps toned down the amount of whining and low-blows(blaming you for Bethany's death jumped the shark for me), made it so that his jealousy and spitefulness was bottled in until in explodes in betrayal, for example tipping off Hawke to the templars or something, and then coming out with the fact that Carver constantly felt in Hawke's shadow, and this was his moment to step out. If it was played that way, then I could have liked and understood him. Flemeth: One of the few things that DA2 did right: It increased the sense of mystery and hidden potency of the character, making you truly wonder at the end,'Just who the hell is Flemeth!?"

Ser Cautherien: She is perhaps one of the most loyal people I have ever seen, not a dog like Ser Varnell, since she can at least think for herself when she needs to. It's just a pity she was deathly loyal to the wrong person, and that really made me guilty for killing her in my first two runs, since she died in loyalty to lies and deception. That's why I spared her for the other times. SunflashTehMace (talk) 16:34, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of Shianni ! A strongly minded elf, with a purpose is deadly --GreyWard3n (talk) 20:22, December 11, 2011 (UTC)GreyWard3n

I don't like Ser Cautherien - I would have saved her if my persuasion had been high enough but ultimately despite her good qualities listed I did enjoy kiling her even on easy as I can't entirely forgive her either in or out of character for telling my warden "to shut up thrall your betters are talking" - now my Warden may have been an elven mage and ergo looked down twice over for something she couldn't help being but she'd got used to been treated with respect for being a grey Warden and even that bitch Jarvia wasn't that rude and she knew there was no way on earth that the toadying Howe was a better person than her. It's a shame that Cautherien didn't live to see Loghain come to see my Warden as an equal.

Anders in DA2 is there to mayke you see that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and like many real life terrorists he was driven to his actions by tyranny and indifference of his so-called betters - one he describes Orsino turning himself into an adomination as a desperate act from a a desperate man he could have been talking about himself just as easily.

Ser Pedantic

...and one man's tyranny is another man's providing government... -- Marvin Arnold (talk) 13:15, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm let's see... The Arishok, Carver, Merril, Morrigan, Tamlen and Sten are my favorite characters, not necessarily in that order. My characters always have Qunari sympathies (except my Blood Mage, who still sided with the Templars hoping to eliminate any competition). I prefer the Templars in virtually every scenario as well. If only it were possible to outright declare support for the Qun. I imagine that the central plot of the game would change in Act 3 if such was done. I always thought that Carver's personality would be better suited to joining the Qunari than Templars when he starts talking about looking for a sense of purpose. --Felixuselegos (talk) 15:24, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Anders is my favorite character in the franchise (c). Besides, I really liked Carver, the character development if you make him a Grey Warden is amasing. Asherinka (talk) 20:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody has brought up the rhyming "poet tree" yet?
Seriously though, Anders. He's probably one of the most controversial characters yet. There are people who outright hate him, there are people who look up to him, you might have some mixed feelings towards him, but face it: you just have to have some kind of strong opinion on him if you have played DA II. Lemonaidz (talk) 21:24, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

lol I kinda forgot about that old oak tree. One of the few demons I almost always let live. I liked him...or it...I think 'it' might be the better word since I don't think it had a gender. --Vampire Damian (talk) 21:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sigrun: A couple people have mentioned her here and I'd like to throw my lot in with them. I LOVED her! I thought she was adorable. I had yet to play through ANY of the dwarven origins before playing Awakening. I didn't really like the dwarves and playing as one didn't interest me at all. Then I met Sigrun and that all changed. I gave both the origins a go (Loved them both) but I stuck with my castless dwarf all the way through just so I can see what kind of dialogue pops up with her and Sigrun. I REALLY hope they bring her back somehow. At least as a cameo!

Isolde: I found it hard to like this character as a person. But as a character, I thought she was EXTREMELY well written and so well voiced! When killing Conner, her voice acting as she begs me to spare her son breaks my heart every time. Especially when she says, "You are a woman. If this was your son, wouldn't you move the mountains to save him?" I would! :,(

Carver: On the outside, super annoying. And yet, I think I like him best out of the siblings (even though I LOVE Bethany). He makes Act 1 so interesting for me. He and my Hawke bicker and argue all the time and sometimes my Hawke will get so frustrated with him, she'll saying something really hurtful and then I feel so bad because the look on his face! Wonderful animation. And then when you show him who his namesake is. It kind of gives Hawke a chance to patch things up with him. I still have yet to play Warden Carver. Will be sure to do that soon. --98.151.222.92 (talk) 21:59, January 8, 2012 (UTC) TurboTwistedFire

Though I certainly don't agree with some of the stuff DA2 Anders pulls (especially applauding if you sell Fenris back to Danarius, that really pissed me off and made him seem incredibly hypocritical), I did actually like that they decided to make him more than just "Alistair, but a mage" this time around. I also did like Merill; quite a few people get really annoyed by her, but like Aerie from Baldur's Gate 2, I actually really like that this kind of naivete and innocence can exist in a world where almost everything is some shade of grey (usually a darker shade). I also like Anora, since she's willing to do whatever it takes to come out on top during the succession crisis, but not one bit more - there isn't any backstabbing just for the sake of it, or playing the "I did what I had to" card after crossing the line at the speed of sound while juggling flaming swords like Howe and her father did. UrLeingod (talk

I actually found that bit with Fenris rather believable. I mean, their hatred to each other is a thing clearly past rational thinking - which, incidentally, isn't exactly Anders' forte anyway. When your long time archenemy suffers like that, the joy should overcome minor nuisances like, say, you thinking slavery is bad. Or your bestest buddy/frenemy Hawke being an irredeemable piece of shit in given situation. Dorquemada (talk) 10:35, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that Fenris is Anders' archenemy, Justina V probably is, anyway, the spineless whiny elf really got on everyone's nerves, so even freedom-fighting Anders condoned slavery. After all, I consider giving Fenris to Danarius very merciful. The only life Fenris can (and wants to) live is a slave, so let him have it.-Algol- (talk) 13:32, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

True, Fenris doesn't even fight back when you sell him out. He's trying so hard to be something else, but in truth, he will always be nothing but a slave. It's obvious he's acting aggressive towards everybody only because he tries to distract from his frail willpower. The point where you sell him out, I expected him to show his true strength, redeem himself and prove that he can be more than a slave... but no, nothing. He accepts his fate without hesitation. Lemonaidz (talk) 13:45, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I always saw it as more that your betrayal has just totally gutted him, that one of the only people he thought he could trust (he still seems to trust you in a Rivalry) has just sent him back to the hell he's spent 7 years escaping for a handful of coins. If that doesn't break a person's spirit, nothing will.UrLeingod (talk)

Well, one must have a spirit in the first place for it to be broken. Comparison: Aveline. She had her home burnt to the ground, her regiment massacred, her husband dead and her life ruined. Not only she found a will to overcome this, she became on of the most influencial people in Kirkwall, started a happy family and not only made her own life good - she even made the whole city a much better place. That is spirit. That is what a true warrior does. Now Fenris spends seven years wallowing in self-pity, even if there is no master looming over him and everyone treats him as equal, blaming mages for his own problems. He never had a spirit when he slaughtered Fog Warriors, who gave him shelter. He never had it to be broken. Even if I might pity him, I just can't deal with the fact, that this waste of life is called a 'warrior'. That is insulting to warrriors.-Algol- (talk) 14:23, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's massively unfair to compare violently losing a good life to being a slave. Aveline was a strong woman who suffered a heavy blow and found a way to deal with it. Fenris was raised as a slave, somehow found the strength of will to try looking for a new purpose in life with the Fog Warriors, and then had it all taken away in one punch to the gut when Danarius found him again. Aveline has the Hawke family and her memories of what a good life looks like to keep her going. Fenris has exactly nothing, just pain and death and guilt and hatred. The one good thing he ever had he was forced to destroy. And I don't think he deserves to be called weak for killing his rescuers. Spending as much time as a favored slave as he did, with a sadistic psychopath's full attention on him, of course he was brainwashed to the point where he couldn't defy Danarius. The fact that he was able to escape at all is a testament to how strong he is.

For comparison's sake, if police found a twenty-something year old who'd been captured by a serial killer as a young child, tortured on and off for the duration of his stay with said serial killer, and then finally managed to run away... Would you really expect this person to become a productive member of society without any help or support from a professional psychologist? Yes, Fenris wallows, but how exactly is he supposed to learn to do anything else? The only person who pays him even marginal positive attention is Hawke if you go the friendship route. And he does grow up a little, the Fenris you meet in Act I would never have fought on the mages' behalf in Act III no matter what Hawke said. Nor would he have let Hawke talk him out of killing his sister.

Anyway, my point is that given what Fenris has been through and the severe lack of support he has throughout the years, the progress he does manage to make is really quite good. To be fair I do believe given DA2's timespan the devs could've let him develop a bit more emotional maturity than was actually the case, but all the same I would never categorize Fenris as anything but incredibly strong. Kestrella (talk) 23:48, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Dorquemada and the second post of UrLeingod. Not being exactly a fan of Fenris (I killed him, after all) I must do him justice. I believe a person who agreed to undergo such a painful procedure so as to free his mother and sister from slavery has some spirit in him, doesn't he? And it is rather anger than self-pity that fills him. Closer to the end of DA2 he seems to accept what happened to him and finally move forward... and Lemonaidz, victims do not need to 'redeem' being victims. Neither do they need to be victimized further, Algol.

I also hate how people use the word 'hypocrite' with regards to half of DA2 characters. I believe there is only one among them who deserves such 'title' - Petrice, and that is why she is so despised. The sad truth is that all the rest are truly sincere in their words and actions, not seeing contradictions and errors of their ways. Asherinka (talk) 19:54, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Anders is my favorite character in the series, and I like his DA2 persona way more. I liked him as a cocky, smart mouthed jackass, but his metamorphosis and fall from grace, and what he sacrifices in the name of mage freedom, it was all so beautiful. I also totally support what he did 100%. No fucking doubt about it, what he did caused Thedas' most glrious day. The death of an old world, where once again, they'll be forced to rebuild from rubble. Hopefully with a lesson well learned about the price of oppression and slavery. I also like Loghain quite a bit, my liking for him is quite complicated (it doesn't involve our penises) because what he did was so fucking wrong, maybe it was the only way, I don't know, but he's a good character with a likeable personality, but if I could only choose one time, I'd definitely side with Alistair. OneDeadTemplar (talk) 23:23, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Mainly in response to Kestrella. I'm afraid this gets us nowhere. Still, I hope that further explanation may clarify both our points better.

• Aveline has the Hawke family and her memories of what a good life looks like to keep her going. Fenris has exactly nothing, just pain and death and guilt and hatred - well, having no good memories means also having very few bad memories, in our case. Anyway, it's a perfect opportunity to start a new life, from a blank page. That's exactly what Hawke may tell him. With his skills he might have chosen some military career, for instance. Or join the Dalish - they are his people and they are free. Well, do something. He doesn't want it. He prefers to dwell on the past, hating each and every mage, while seeing with his own eyes, that the situation in Kirkwall is wa-a-ay different, than in Tevinter. It is freaking there, in plain view. But he prefers to not see the obvious. In SEVEN years. When you have nothing, nothing holds you back, unless you very much want it to hold you back.
• pending as much time as a favored slave as he did, with a sadistic psychopath's full attention on him, of course he was brainwashed to the point where he couldn't defy Danarius - I never recall Danarius being a sadistic psychopath. He's the bad guy, yes, but I never recall Fenris saying anything about some particular sadism, except for the markings. Fenris says he didn't want them (constantly, which is really annoying), but happily uses them to eviscerate people. If they are of use to you, why whine about it on a daily basis? And I'm even not saying that he actually wanted them, that will be further. About being brainwashed and an inability to defy Danarius - don't you think that you overexaggerated a bit? If he was 'brainwashed', he wouldn't escape in the first place.
• And I don't think he deserves to be called weak for killing his rescuers - and what he deserves to be called? Poor little Fenris? It wasn't his fault, the one-armed man did it? He had his chance at freedom, but he ruined it himself. I mean why people defend Fenris, and don't give two sh*ts about those good people he murdered? What about them? Maybe they deserve fairness too?
• The fact that he was able to escape at all is a testament to how strong he is - strength is something you show continually, as is weakness. If it is only once, that's not strength, that's one lucky shot. But he shows weakness continually: Fog Warriors, inability to adapt, blind hatred of mages (I mean c'mon, even Anders doesn't hate every templar - he was pleasantly surprised with Thrask and his group) and even failed to simply reconsider his thoughts about magic, when he learned about his past. Of course it takes strength to admit, that one is wrong, but he has none.
• Would you really expect this person to become a productive member of society without any help or support from a professional psychologist? - unfortunately we don't have professional psychologists in Thedas, people just do without. When Hawke tells him to start a life, he does not. I understand, that it is hard, but it is the only way out. Again, he ruins it himself.
• Yes, Fenris wallows, but how exactly is he supposed to learn to do anything else? - look at other people and learn. Do what they do. Aveline could be something to aspire to be for him, but... nothing happens.
• the Fenris you meet in Act I would never have fought on the mages' behalf in Act III no matter what Hawke said - I don't think that it is really his credit. More like the Friendship/Rivalry system's credit, where a maxed out bar allows Hawke to nearly mind-control his/her companions. I was sincerely grateful to him for his help, though.
• To be fair I do believe given DA2's timespan the devs could've let him develop a bit more emotional maturity than was actually the case - agreed, they could have. But they didn't, and we just have to deal with what we have.

• I do realise, that I am being biased, but that bias has its reasons. From the perspective of my Hawke: he insults my sister, my loved one, my friend and the memory of my father. But from the perspective of the player, myself, I just don't have the needed dialogue options, and instead have a very illogical character. And again, I just refuse to accept, that Fenris is called a warrior. Pretty much the same with Carver. Why do you hate 2H warriors in DAII so much, Bioware?-Algol- (talk) 04:04, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Opinions are always biased - by definition) I agree that Aveline is a strong character, but I also think that Fenris is entitled to his grief, i.e. anger and depression. It is a normal, dare I say, healthy reaction, you can't demand everyone to be resilient.

What I don't like about Fenris is his urge for vengeance. Especially when he kills Hadriana after promising her not to. And in my canon Fenris never fought on the mages' behalf no matter what Hawke said. He turned on her and she had to kill him. Yet, I strongly disagree that giving him back to slavers is merciful. Asherinka (talk) 08:10, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

• When you have nothing, nothing holds you back, unless you very much want it to hold you back. He's got a list of emotional issues the length of which could easily decorate all of Hightown. He's depresssed, lacks a purpose in life, and has never been taught so much as the basics of human (or elven) interaction. Not to mention how to be his own person and take initiative. Yes, he could've learned faster and more than he actually did. I suspect that after being allowed to spiral into depression he did get comfortable that way and refused to let anyone pull him out of it. Still, there is no "correct" timetable for dealing with the kind of emotional trauma Fenris has. He could've recovered more quickly, he also could have not recovered at all.
• I never recall Danarius being a sadistic psychopath. The devs actually confirmed that the relationship between Fenris and Danarius was in fact every bit as questionably intimate as Danarius's behavior implies. I sincerely doubt it was consensual on Fenris's part. In addition there was no reason to force Fenris to kill the Fog Warriors except as a form of emotional torture. Nor was there any need to dangle his sister's betrayal in front of his nose like that. So yes in my eyes Danarius qualifies as a sadist.
• If he was 'brainwashed', he wouldn't escape in the first place. Again, years as a favored slave? He's been conditioned to obey Danarius's every whim. In fact the strength of that conditioning shows itself when Hawke hands him over. When what little independence he's managed to develop is destroyed, he defaults to the only "comfortable" behavior he knows, which is total obedience. And that's after 7 years spent well away from the man. He didn't have nearly that kind of time with the Fog Warriors, so when Danarius popped up and handed him a direct order, he followed it because he still couldn't fully comprehend the possibility of disobeying. He returned to his old behavior, but whatever spark of freedom he earned in that short time was strong enough to allow him to escape. That doesn't mean he was never brainwashed in the first place, it means that given a glimmer of hope he found the strength to fight back.
• I mean why people defend Fenris, and don't give two sh*ts about those good people he murdered? It's not that I don't give two shits about them. It's that I don't believe Fenris was responsible for his actions. Danarius was in control there, not Fenris.

On a side note, I can't believe I'm spending this much effort to defend Fenris, he's actually one of my least favorite companions XD Kestrella (talk) 10:55, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Isabela was my favorite from DA2, and I also give Fenris some mercy too, I dont agree with his views on mages but I do agree with him on slavery and he has made me chuckle a few times. I also have a soft side for the Arishok. As far as DA:O I'd say Zevran and Sten. Zevran is hilarious and so is Sten, plus Sten reminds me of myself. Marauder 09

From what i've heard it sounds like Fenris is just a weak willed, unreasonable 'warrior' version of Zevran. Mages and Fenris seem comparable to birds and Shale. Maybe Kirkwall drove him more nuts? Doesn't sound like he'd be the only one if that was the case. Warriors do have a tendency to be on the angry/dim-witted side moreso than other classes at least, particularly 2-handed warriors. Sten raged out and killed a whole farmhold of innocents including children with his bare hands and Oghren's entire fight style is based on rage. I think the main difference is Sten and Oghren aren't whiny like Carver and Fenris are. Though they did have their moments (Sten in Haven for example).--Vampire Damian (talk) 11:22, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

How in the hell did Sten whine in Haven? By questioning your authority? Oh, I suppose all the people at OWS that don't like being robbed by bankers are just whining too. Also, Carver's a young man, only 18 years old at the beginning of the game, when he is a tad whiny, not to mention the whole.. Death of everything he's ever known or loved at a time that should of been his coming of age. He becomes quite a respectable man once joining the ranks of the Wardens or Templars, and this comes from someone that rewrites song lyrics about killing police to fit templars.. Also neither Sten, Oghren Fenris, or Carver are dimwits. Least of all Sten, you could make an argument for Oghren, but the more I listen to that guy, the more it seems like he has a lot of wisdom stored away that he just doesn't like showing off. OneDeadTemplar (talk) 17:37, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Sten can attack the Warden in Haven. He's a soldier who was sworn to the Warden's service in a time of war. By attacking a superior in a time a war with intent to take over command you have committed an act of mutiny punishable in most cultures only by death. If the Warden is a noble, it'd be an unquestionable death sentence. However he's the only one we can't kill for some reason when he turns on us. It was just one more example of his anger being more important to him than his honor. Sten already proved to be a failure leading against darkspawn once. He makes a good soldier but not a good leader. Sten is not smart because he was not made to be smart. He was made to be strong. Even if a warrior knows everything about war, they generally know little of anything else. Sten knows how to fight and how to kill and that is all he needs to know. If he was smart, he would be a Tamassran or a Ben Hassrath. Also, He supports a system that mutilates and enslaves mages. What the arvaarad do is much worse than what the Templars do. I never said Fenris and Carver didn't have perfectly understandable reasons to be whiny, just that they were. I think Kirkwall may have even made them worse somehow given that just being there seems to drive people nuts. Oghren...he's one of my favorite characters because he's funny and I feel bad for him but...he just can't seem to do anything right on his own. I can sympathize as I have been in some similar situations myself. Also, like Sten, he was made to be strong, not smart. He had no idea how to handle a personal life since he wasn't raised to know. He was warrior caste and they stripped him of his weapons for doing the only thing he knew how to do right and he lost himself in booze and self-pity. Branka's probably the only reason he didn't just go to the surface sooner and try to find Felsi then. I don't believe ignorance is an insult or even that if someone is ignorant that they can't change it if they want to. If you want to be smart I think a key aspect is realizing what you are ignorant about and instead of feeling bad about it, pushing through that and learning. If there is any fault I think it would be desiring to change but lacking the will to do it. --Vampire Damian (talk) 23:34, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Nowhere have I seen Qunathloshothtallisari on this forum. I'll take that as a good sign.----Isolationistmagi 01:57, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Prince Bhelen, Brother Genitivi from Origins, Mother Petrice and generally Blood Mages from DA2 are some unpopular characters which I really enjoy!

Actually, Brother Genitivi seems to be one of the more well-liked minor characters in Origins, probably because an RPG side character's that's genuinely helpful and respectful, and not insane, an idiot, or trying to manipulate you in any way is such a novelty. UrLeingod (talk)

If we're going with helpful respectful npc's I think the merchant that gives the Warden Shale's control rod deserves to be mentioned. I was slightly shocked when he didn't ask me to find his mule. --Vampire Damian (talk) 23:01, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

The thought was there for a long time... Act1 Grace. In the next two Acts my reaction was "Who are you, and what have you done with Grace?", but in Act1 I really liked her character. Can't even explain why O_o -Algol- (talk) 17:40, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

It must be her hair. Or dress :) Asherinka (talk) 15:03, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Or the tattoo... Or that I have a long history of attraction to mage girls XD -Algol- (talk) 19:30, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Personally i like Gamlen , he actually does allot for you and you never once have the option to thank him or even not be a complete arse to him , so what if he took inheritance , she ( your mother , her name escapes me ) was gone , he looked after their parents until they died , he got you into kirkwall. He was completely vilified when he asked for some rent , which to me atleast seems fair. I don't know if he's unpopular with players but atleast within the game he's far from. He even stops you hitting an orphan.

@Vampire Damian (I don't know how to put a text box underneath your comment...) I have to disagree on Sten there. A Sten is in human terms a captain (insert any term regarding leadership here). That means in Qunari society that he is a competent leader. Being a good leader usually comes with intelligence so you saying that he isn't smart is simply false. If you talk to him you would've noticed this. He is one of the smartest characters in your party even. Same goes for Oghren. Particulary in his conversations with Shale.

You also talk about intelligence has if it can be taught. While that is partially true in that you can be taught knowledge, but this doesn't make one smart. It just means that you know something. What you do with that knowledge and how you apply it makes one smart. Also, in Sten's eyes, if you fail to convince him of your leadership in Haven, he has a perfectly justifiable reason to attack you. He thinks that your incompetence will lead to a victory for the darkspawn. And how was he angry at that point, I don't remember that. That situation is more of a cultural difference and I'm not going to try to argue about which culture is right in this situation.--Agent047 (talk) 22:12, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

You have a point about the difference between knowledge and wisdom. You can be wise without being knowledgeable and you can be knowledgeable without being wise. For example, IMO the Shapers of Orzammar possess much knowledge but not much wisdom. I've tried to talk to Sten but he isn't exactly talkative. When he was a commander, his unit was killed, his weapon stolen and his honor sacrificed when he slaughtered innocents in a fit of blind rage. He probably shouldn't have even been referring to himself as a Sten at that point. If he had taken control of the mission at that point, Eamon may never have been cured and there would have been no one to call the Landsmeet. The whole Haven bit was somewhat confusing. He disapproves of being persuaded but approves of getting his ass kicked. He knows violence well but it seems to be all he knows. I did agree with most of his points on the ashes but they were necessary. If it had been Duncan in command, he would have killed Sten for raising his weapon to him just as he killed Jory. Most mutineers feel justified, it doesn't change the fact that it's a crime in most cultures punishable only by death. What if one of Sten's group had done the same? Would he not have killed him? Ferelden law would have Sten killed just for stealing a Cousland Warden's grain. Not sure if the timing matters either but when my Cousland Warden (the one he attacked) went to Haven, it was before going to Redcliffe Village, but after talking to Ser Donall in the Lothering Chantry. I admittedly haven't really heard alot of the party banter between some characters. Sten always seems kind of angry though but things aren't always what they seem. It could very well just be cultural differences and misunderstandings. I would be interested to see how well he was received by the Arishok. Oghren's entire fighting style is based on rage, it fuels him...but so do various liquids of questionable content. Oghren's gas may have been enough to kill a broodmother with the right combination of drinks. I think Oghren shows great wisdom in DAA when he accepts that fighting is all he knows. Sometimes it is wiser not to pursue some kinds of knowledge. I still wanna know how he lost to a roast nug...I know it was a sodding good roast but come on... --Vampire Damian (talk) 11:27, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Who do I like? "May the sunlight find you, thy days be long, thy winters kind, and thy roots be strong." --Luvellah (talk) 14:29, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in Sten's eyes, if you fight for your right to command then it's at least a bit justified. It shows that the Warden believes in their own decision. His disapproval if you talk him down is not something I can remember, you might be right. He opens up more if you get his approval. I wouldn't blame the death of his unit on him, it was something they were totally unprepared for. After all, the reason Sten was in Ferelden is to gather information on the Blight.

You are right about his rage and the killing of the family, that was a heinous crime and Sten himself knows it. And in a way, he doesn't call himself Sten anymore. He said that he couldn't go home, because he lost his soul and failed in his task. The only reason he refers to himself as Sten is because he hasn't known another for likely thirty years. The Arishok apparently approves of Sten, otherwise he wouldn't be Sten.

I would like to add that Duncan killed Jory because he mutinied during the Joining, the most important secret in the Grey Warden order. Also, stealing grain from Cousland Warden wouldn't be a crime punishable by death, for he is no longer a noble.

According to the Qun, everyone who has a position is worthy of that position. In Qunari lands at least. So his men wouldn't have mutinied in the first place, so he wouldn't have to kill them. As I said, if you listen to some of his banter you can see some wisdom shining through. I have to hear about this story of the roasted nug, it sounds hilarious.

In an inversion of this topic, I dislike Wynne. I don't actually know if she is popular, but I find it arrogant that she believes she possesses wisdom. I never found any evidence for this, only highly religious and self pretentious 'advice'. I do however like Greagoir. He might be a templar, but he isn't Meredith level zealous. He seems to have some Frenemy going on with Irving, and does hope for the mages' survival. Plus he didn't execute Anders when he could have.--Agent047 (talk) 14:55, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

I dislike both Sten and Wynne. See, I've just given us a reason to befriend each other: Common enemy :) PS Dislike is the correct word. I do see that they both have redeeming qualities. It is not absolute zero but rather slightly below the freezing point, so to say. Sebastian is the only companion I would completely leave in the cold. Asherinka (talk) 15:03, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

A Cousland Warden is still a noble, or they would not be allowed to be king/queen. How the Warden interprets Sten's attack may differ on their own origin and beliefs. Some might see him as a traitor, others as just impatient.

If Sten's unit was to gather information on the blight, they should have been prepared to fight darkspawn. They were soldiers, he was their commander. They were defeated and killed. Though the rules of his culture may be different, in most cases I've seen if a unit of soldiers fail at their duty the responsibility of that failure falls primarily on the commander. I think the only bigger failure for a soldier would be if they surrendered.

I also dislike Wynne, so there is something we can all agree on. Sten...there are some things about him I think are highly admirable and others highly deplorable. He's a tough one to figure out. The roasted nug story was told by Felsi during Oghren's personal quest. --Vampire Damian (talk) 16:58, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Technically, Cousland isn't King or Queen. They are prince/princess consort. If you choose to play the Landsmeet that way. Yeah I know, nitpicking.

I must say that I don't adore Sten, I find the Qun is too harsh on mages. This way is effective, but immoral. I also dislike their expantionalistic ways. But then there are the good sides to the Qun, which make it difficult to completely renounce it.

Also, unite Wynne dislikers! Hooray! I didn't buy the Sebastian DLC, but what I hear of him... I find religion obnoxious enough as it is, I'm not going to pay money to hear and see someone nag to me about it. What I also laughed at was his threat towards Hawke. Sure, you do that Sebastian. Why couldn't people stab him at that point when people have the option the make someone a martyr?

PS Absolute zero? You sure are thorough when disposing of your enemies :) --Agent047 (talk) 20:33, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

"Why couldn't people stab him at that point when people have the option the make someone a martyr?" - that. Even diplomatic Hawkes kill people for less. And, BTW, the devs described Sebastian as "moderaely religious". I fear what would they call a zealot then.-Algol- (talk) 21:15, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Meredith. -- Marvin Arnold (talk) 13:18, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

That whole prince/king-consort thing was a mess. One second it's king, next it's prince, then king again, then prince again. Still if they were not noble, no form of that would be an option. I do think there were quite a few writing and programming mistakes post-coronation though. Shale, Alistair, Anora, Eamon, Teagan and Teagan's possible wives are all somewhat bugged here along with several epilogue slides.

I agree about the Qun. I've seen it described as a militant form of Buddhism, so that may explain it. While I am Agnostic and not Buddhist, it's the closest religion to my own beliefs from what I know about it. The Qun seems to mix Buddhism with Islam. How I see Christianity/Judaism/Islam along with the Chantry and the Qun (with slight modifications) can be seen in this 13 second clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ROTzn4L3M8

Militant control freaks will never find lasting peace no matter how hard they try, whether they are religious or not. Unless they decide to stop being militant control freaks. Unfortunately fighting them only seems to make people just as bad as them.

From what I've heard of him I doubt I'd like Sebastian either. Moderately religious? By the tits of my ancestors, what do they consider Leliana or Wynne?

I'm thorough enough to have my reavers and mages drain the remaining life from my enemies corpses. Though admittedly, that's just for the loot most of the time.--Vampire Damian (talk) 21:46, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Wynne is not religious at all. She has other reasons to be preachy. And Sebastian IMHO is way more religious than Leliana. Besides, she does not advocate for organized religion but rather for a personal belief. PS I am kind, wise and beautiful. And I admit I like frost magic) Asherinka (talk) 04:13, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Adding to this: faith =/= religion. Leliana obviously has faith, but sometimes takes much liberty with religion, while Sebastian is very religious, but imo, lacking faith. That's why I'm so disappointed with DA2 Leliana, who became a Seeker. From what we know about them so far - a tool of the Chantry, who defend religion and Chantry regime. -Algol- (talk) 04:53, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

No she did not. She is an Agent of the Divine, not a Seeker. And the Divine is her old friend so Leliana has personal reasons to help her. See here and here. But I'm not a fan of Leliana either. Each time Morrigan talked to her about faith I wanted to kiss the former, seriously. And I'm a straight female) Asherinka (talk) 05:10, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Ahem. I wouldn't want to argue with a "kind, wise and beautiful female, who likes frost magic" (mostly because of frost magic :)), but does that actually prove, that Leliana is not a Seeker? She wears the same uniform as Cassandra, with a Seeker logo slapped right on it, and in MoTA Cassandra states, that the Seekers had an agent in Chateau Haine. While there are just assumptions in the links.-Algol- (talk) 05:29, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

David Gaider is the Lead Writer. I bet he knows better) Besides, in Asunder she is always called an Agent and never a Seeker. "It was said that the Divine kept agents at her side, and that some of them were bards - master manipulators of the Game, sometimes spies and even assassings" (c). That is who Leliana is. Asherinka (talk) 05:31, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Of course he does) But he's being so secretive and elusive (he didn't even directly state she wasn't a Seeker), that I'm running out of options about considering Leliana's allegiance.-Algol- (talk) 05:36, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

He did in the tweet here. And there were some more but I'm too lazy to search) Asherinka (talk) 05:40, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, should've given the tweet earlier. So she isn't a Seeker. A Seeker auxiliary is more like it. Still, Leliana, I am disappoint. -Algol- (talk) 05:43, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

And one more. Seems like I'm never too lazy when I want to prove a point) Asherinka (talk) 05:45, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

You've proven your point already, take it easy:)-Algol- (talk) 05:55, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Wynne by herself is religious, but the spirit of Faith in her sure seems to be. I still wonder how much of Wynne was left in that body after the Tower. As far as Leliana goes, she's a professional liar so who knows what side she's on? We all know how those Orlesians are.--Vampire Damian (talk) 09:36, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

1) I find it entertaining how people call Anders an abomination, but Wynne is perfectly fine:) 2) I'm not sure, that Leliana fully realizes on what side she's on... -Algol- (talk) 10:02, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I've wondered the same thing about Wynne and Anders. Maybe because possessed Wynne was practically the only Wynne we knew and Anders we knew beforehand so we know how much he changed. I do recall having a conversation with Wynne about her being an abomination at some point but I'm not sure what was said. I have a tendency to tune her out after awhile.--Vampire Damian (talk) 10:14, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I like Anders' in Dragon Age 2. It did get a little irritating how much he went on and on about the plight of mages. but I agree with him on those issues. I also didn't mind how he's so starkly different than how he was in Awakening. A lot had happened to him by the time that Dragon Age 2 began. it would make sense for him to be more jaded and not as upbeat as before. He seems to be the supporting character to have gone through the most character development. And I guess that threw people off. They wanted him to stay exactly the same. But I thought he was interesting. And as for blowing up the chantry, yes it was horrible, yes it was an act of terroism. But I think he's Dragon Age 2's Loghain, a character who willingly does horrible things but believes it was for a greater good. It seems like a lot of people like Loghain so why the Ander's hate?--JackfieldsA113 (talk) 21:52, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I would argue that it was an act of terrorism, mainly because there is no such thing as "terrorism" in fictional DA-verse, which is loosely based on medieval Europe, whose people had a very different set of morals than we do now. Besides, the cutscene showed only Elthina and a bunch of templars and neither of them can be called "innocent" in our matter.-Algol- (talk) 23:06, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

I try not to argue with people who brand him such, simply because I don't like the whole labeling thing. You have a category with a certain definition. You have an event that you want to judge. Now you have two options: 1. to judge it individually 2. to check that it fits in a certain category and to apply the general rule. The second way is in fact stereotyping and as such demonstrates cognitive laziness. It is quite useful when one deals with simple problems. But once the situation becomes complex, such way of thinking leads to oversimplification.

Some categories (i.e. terrorism) are strongly emotionally charged and thus give a lot of moral entitlement to the person who applies them. He/she will try to prove that (a) is in {A}, and {A} is BAD, ergo (a) is BAD, end of story. Those who argue with this person will try to prove that (a) is not in {A}, or that {A} is not what the person thinks. They will not dare to say that {A} is not BAD. Such discussions are curious to watch, not so curious to engage in.

If one says that Anders is beyond redemption because he killed innocent people, and nothing justifies this, I will respectfully disagree. But once I hear something like "But he is a terrorist!", I will turn and walk away.

PS I hope I expressed myself clearly enough. I'm not a native speaker and sometimes find it difficult to say what I want. Asherinka (talk) 05:50, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

You know what's the funniest part? When accusation of "terrorism" come from people, whose characters had no problem, say, completing The Trial of Crows questline, and on the whole engage in homicide of astronomic proportions.-Algol- (talk) 06:43, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Arl Howe is the best!!! Come on he kicked orlesian butt to win ferelden back its freedom. He remained faithful to the true liberator of fereldan instead of siding with the boy-king who was play at war with darkspawn, thereby siding with a person who earned his position by actually working for it rather than being born in the right family. And he himself nearly secured a position much higher than he was born into and failed only because he sided against the "hero". 101.212.238.191 (talk) 06:08, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yes!!! Arl Howe!!! COME OOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!! Why is it so few can appreciate the single minded devotion to justice and honour, that this paragon of righteousness displays with every facet of his being!!! Arl Howe! The people's champion, and rightful ruler of Ferelden! Nay, all of Thedas!

Tekka Ijuin | Talk

07:07, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Amen. Asherinka (talk) 07:16, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Howe 9:30

Tekka Ijuin | Talk

07:40, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Arl Howe rule thedas??? No way! ok he is sufficient for fereldan but we need someone as level minded and wise as Meredith to rule all of thedas! 101.212.238.191 (talk) 08:00, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but you fail to see the big picture. Howe, oh glorious Howe, is the ideal, and the only, man who can be the face of this great world. Meredith of course, has her own role to play as the power behind the throne, the muscle to his brains, the punch behind his words, the Dick to his Bush. There can be only one way forward for this great nation under the Maker, and that is to show your support for Howe/Stannard 9:30.

Tekka Ijuin | Talk

08:06, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it depends on what really mean by "Unpopular", since all characters get hate to an extent, However some have bigger fanbases than other(or at least more devoted fanbases) and have more fans than haters.

in that regard, i have always liked Loghain and Anora, too. i also like Aveline a lot, and i've never seen anyone hate on her, she just seems ignored, a lot, which makes me sad :( also it seems Oghren and Zevran get a lot of hate, Oghren mainly revolving around his constant toilet humor, and Zevran is "Teh Gayz", but i like them.

1. 1 All you Arl Howe lovers, this is what I think of him. Instead of just killing him I believe the Cousland should string Howe up naked smear honey all over his nether region and then shake up a bee hive and bust it open under neath Howe and let the bees go to town and the let a bear have the left overs..As for me the one I would choose would probably Jowain after all what he did was for love and survival and besides I think he would be the poster child for the Mage rebellion..SirLester

Ditto on Arl Howe. As soon as I heard his voice I squealed "TIM CURRY!". You know he's gonna do something shitty (I mean, come on, he's voiced by Tim Curry). I loved that sly voice. And I had never felt more satisfaction killing him. He's a wonderful character.

Finn. As I'm always a mage, I felt a lot of connection to him. And he's so prim and fastidious. He's what I see - often - in my department, fastidious but totally crazy about his passion and willing to do anything for it. He is an excellent scholar.

I completley agree with Finn as well, I like him way more than Arianne (Aka Misscomplainsalotbecausesheisadalish so original of them) I liked that he would comment on various things that happened around the Tower (like that Anders escaped the circle by swimming away in lake calenhad) and I like that his parents still adore and love him instead of trying to pretend he doesn't exist. Finn is a pretty cool guy in my book, sad that he got a short role instead of being a full on companion (would have preferred him over Sten or Velanna) --SirXblade (talk) 18:56, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Zevran. He was the one who got me into the series to begin with! He reminds me of Silk a bit from The Belgariad series. His banters are always hilarious, especially when he has the bet going on about Morrigan. I loved the banters between Zev and Oghren. and hey, he was the first love :P

Loghain. He was the first villain I met in a game whom I couldn't hate. He was, after all, doing everything for Ferelden; he was just misguided and confused, uninformed, even. I felt awful when he says "daughters shall always be six years old with pigtails"; I saw the face of Loghain the father, Loghain the husband. To give up the woman you love for the country... Loghain, you shall always be remembered.

The Templar in Calenhad docks. I love having Morrigan intimidate him. He pretends he knows what's going on, but actually he has no idea. I find him hilarious!--GabrielleduVent (talk) 04:02, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

In order of which game they appear in

Dragon Age Origins: Isolde, does whatever she can to protect her only son. She makes all Mama bears proud :)

Dragon Age Awakening: Sigrun, (tied with Nathaniel Howe) she is probably the most pragmatic of the companions and its admirable that because she was born a Casteless she wants to better herself, plus she is cute in a way. She doesn't let hatred blindly control herself (Velanna mainly) even if she was wronged by the dwarfed nobles for being casteless. and she feels regret in her companion quest for stealing from her friend Mischa and then offers a ring in return. Her loyalty to her comrades in the Legion of the Dead is also Admirable.

All the demons. Sadly they all are so one dimention. Little variety would be nice. It would be nice to see one demon who actually keeps its word 100%. I like them. Never trust a demon as the saying goes. When I played my mage warden I actually liked to become a abomination, but noooo... WHY NOT!? --188.67.182.224 (talk) 21:21, February 16, 2012 (UTC)Jak Darckner

Knight Commander Greagoir, For some reason i always felt he was unappreciated.TheProphet (talk) 21:38, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ditto here. Everyone talks about Thrask and Meredith and Cullen, but I felt Greagoir was a really fair man in regards to what had happened. That was one of the reasons why I didn't understand people in Kinloch clamouring for freedom. Granted, I haven't seen much, but as a mage Warden I felt that Greagoir seemed a pretty fair Templar-commander. He didn't tranquillise people left and right, nor did he have people watched constantly (I mean, the mage Warden breaks into the basement), but he did what he had to do. And compared to Orsino/Meredith, Irving/Greagoir seems to be on equal standpoint, if they wrangle a lot more.

I also liked the guy who traps the Warden in Denerim by putting up that poster in the Market district. "Guys, let's kill us some warden" made me laugh... I mean, the Grey Wardens are legendary fearsome warriors, and he speaks as if the Warden is a cockroach to be squashed.

Last but not the least, Uldred after possession. I cracked up when he said "You are a thorn in my side, and I must remove you before you fester!" and the Warden replies "did you have to be so disgusting?". "No! But it gets the point across" removed all seriousness from the mood. His dialogue seems a trifle silly. Ah well. It lightened the otherwise dark and ominous mood.--GabrielleduVent (talk) 01:31, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

"I didn't understand people in Konloch clamouring for freedom." - LOL. Thanks for making my day! Why would people clamour for freedom anyway? Who needs freedom, eh?-Algol- (talk) 16:12, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

As part of the research facility that has very tight ethics committee and a lot of regulations, I never felt any need to blow up the lab. It's not like Kinloch Hold was especially oppressive, like The Gallows. As far as I could see as a mage, I didn't really have any particular reason to demand freedom any more than I had.

Of course, I haven't actually lived there, so I wouldn't know the full extent of Temlar oppression, but considering that Irving and Greagoir were constantly at each others' throats, I'm assuming the mages were a bit more free. But as a researcher, I probably wouldn't have minded living there. I hate going outside anyway, and the laboratory, the walls and walls of books, are very attractive to me.

And mages are dangerous. My mage killed far more than Sten/Oghren/Alistair did in the same amount of time. She cleaned out buildings by herself with one spell.--GabrielleduVent (talk) 17:52, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ahem, are you actually getting me? The ability to kill does not make mages anymore dangerous, than non-mages. Your mage killed a lot. And? My mage was a controller and didn't kill much, but my rogue was able to clear a room with a single ability use. But that's not the point. You are saying, that a person, who has been thrown to jail for no reason, cannot possibly complain, if this person has a polite jailer. That's ridiculous. It's not a matter of how far the oppression goes, it's a matter of this oppression existing in general.-Algol- (talk) 19:34, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Bioware changed the lore between DA:O and DA2. In DA:O, we often see mages outside of the Tower, being useful. Still most of them watched by templars, but doing useful jobs and keeping their sanity. In DA2, EVERY SINGLE mage once outside of the Gallows (1) becomes an abomination, or (2) becomes a blood mage, or (3) deals with demons, unless he/she is brought back to the Gallows in short time (and preferably turned tranquil). In DA:O, there is some kind of mutual agreement that mages can handle themselves (as long as they don't run away from their templars), and Templars are there as "safety catch" in case something goes wrong. It's not the ability to kill that makes mages dangerous, it's the tendency to become an uncontrollable danger to a society: In DA2, every single mage is a time bomb that inevitably explodes once they get out of the Gallows, and Templars are paranoid oppressors (Given that Cullen of all people is one of the sanest of them all) who incarcerate those time bombs in an ancient prison (because that's what the Gallows are). Yes, DA2 mages are dangerous. Yes, DA2 Templars are paranoid oppressors. Pick a side. -- Marvin Arnold (talk) 13:15, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

1)They didn't change the lore. Kirkwall is just being a very "special" place with the veil being thin all around and Corypheus dwelling nearby.

2)So in DA:O mages are useful to society. Slaves are useful to society too, but that doesn't change the fact, that they're still slaves, and it doesn't change the fact, that they have each and every reason to complain about their status.-Algol- (talk) 13:58, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Marvin Arnold on this, (with there being a few exceptions to some Malificarium like Uldred and what not and what not) Although the circle isn't perfect, the Templars and Mages sort of got along, Mages were free to read books and to learn magic and in some cases allowed to go out of the tower. Heck even Cullen admits he has got a thing for your mage (if your female). but In DA2 all the mages just loose it, I could count more Blood Mages and Abominations than in DAO.--SirXblade (talk) 18:47, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

"Sort of got along", lol. A good slave should love his leash, right?-Algol- (talk) 22:21, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

It isn't perfect I'll agree but what would you prefer for the mages, give them complete total control, right well that leaves us the Tevinter Imperium so there goes your "slave logic" or would you prefer all mages to be chained up, well the Qunari have a fantastic idea!--SirXblade (talk) 00:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I actually fully agree with Algol, but I think it would be wiser to discuss it in this topic, as it is clearly a mage-templar debate again, and the statements both of you make were already debated there ;) Asherinka (talk) 22:32, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Its fine that you agree with him,My whole point wasn't about Mages VS Templars and which side was better, I was just stating that in DAO Templars and Mages sort of got along due to a common mutual agreement, (Mages don't do blood magic and summon demons, Templars protect and watch over mages without oppressing them) DA 2 made both parties essentially insane, Mages become Blood mages out of paranoia of the Templars and Templars start slaughtering Mages because of Paranoia . When it became about Mages Rights, I say look at his first reply to GabrielleDevant! --SirXblade (talk) 00:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC) sorry for going off topic though again :)

@SirXblade Yes, I understood from the beginning what you were trying to say. @GabrielleduVent & SirXblade I replied to both of you here, scroll down the end of the page). Asherinka (talk) 09:54, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

(although we agreed in the Mages/Templar Forum, My whole argument wasnt about if Konloch Hold was better than Kirkwall or a better system, My point was that in DAO they made both the mages and Templars more reasonable and sympathetic because you could understand both sides clearer, MAges want freedom and the right to not to be oppressed, Templars want to protect non mages from mages and to prevent mages from seizing absolute power. *this doesn't mean it was a perfect system with Uldred and all but you sort of understood both sides* In DA 2 Both sides just went off the deep end. Basically they made both more extreme just for the sake of spicing things up rather than take the approach in DAO. So please, next time don't try to twist words to make it seem that I said something I didn't say. If your gonna disagree with what I said, please argue against what I said instead of changing the meaning, thank you :) ) --SirXblade (talk) 19:37, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, SirXblade, I am not twisting your words. Like I've said (or tried to say, at least), I disagree because I do not find templars understandable and sympathetic in DAO at all. DAO Cullen=DA2 Meredith ('crazy one'), DAO Greagoir=DA2 Cullen ('typical one'), Irminric=Samson ('lyrium addict'). Actually, in DA2 we at least have Thrask ('good one'). And on the other hand, Alrik and Karras ('rapists and sadists'). Overall, DAO templars ~ DA2 templars. The only difference is that in DAO the 'crazy one' has little power, while in DA2 she has it all. How else should I explain what I am trying to say, I don't know :( I give in :) Asherinka (talk) 20:46, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised to see Varric and Isabela being mentioned here. I was under the impression that they were the two most popular characters in DA2. As far as Anders and Fenris are concerned, I wouldn't really call them unpopular either. Anders is certainly controversial, but I'm pretty sure there are at least as many people who like him/support him/feel pity for him as those that don't. As for Fenris, despite the fact that his fanbase seems to be decidedly skewed towards the female end of the spectrum, the support still seems to be pretty hefty. Regardless, for what it's worth, I like both.

As for characters I truly consider unpopular, I'll throw my vote in for Zevran, Sigrun and Carver. Zevran is shrewd, witty, and I appreciate the respect he has for the Warden's wishes (he is nothing if not explicit about his intentions, and perfectly understands that 'no' means 'no'). I also like the way he responds in kind if you show him trust, as well as his unfailing optimism, despite all the crap he's been through. And of course, the dirty jokes.

Sigrun is such a sweetheart. Same as Zevran, considering her circumstances, her optimism, enthusiasm and wide-eyed wonder about things is endearing. And, on top of that, she's both reasonable and sassy, and genuinely wants to be a better person than people expect her to be.

Carver may start out as a confrontational jerk, but I actually found it a refreshing example of sibling rivalry: it can't be easy to be the black sheep in a family of mages, and I can certainly see where he's coming from. At least, he's upfront about his disagreements, unlike Bethany's passive aggression, and some of his comments made me laugh, because of their impulsive enthusiasm (eg. his reaction to meeting Meeran for the first time). On top of that, whatever path you choose for him, he ends up maturing and becoming his own man. Warden Carver, in particular, is awesome. Nilfalasiel (talk) 13:48, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Bethany's passive aggression? Where? When? Why wasn't I told? O_o -Algol- (talk) 23:17, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Give her out to the Wardens. The way she turns out, I even suspect all her nice meek girl act was, well, an act and she always was this bitter bitch with issues and hidden animosities towards her family, but was pretending to be a nice girl because everyone expected her to, besides, that's how real ladies act. Now when little miss P-A is on her own, no need for a mask and emotions dammed for so long flow in full force. Dorquemada (talk) 09:07, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Overreacting much? "Bitter bitch", "Animosities towards her family", really? The only thing she complains about is giving her to the Wardens, and has every reason to do it - it wasn't even her choice to become a Warden, and I can perfectly understand why she doesn't want it. Now, not seeing any quotes, which support her supposed "animosity", I recall, that before the siege of the Gallows, when you side with mages and she's in the Circle, the only thing she wishes to be different, is that Carver was alive. Yeah, animosity my ass. Gosh, people just complain about virtually anything - having a kind, well-mannered and rational party member still doesn't meet their overexaggered demands. Bethany FTW.-Algol- (talk) 13:58, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the only thing she complains about is about Hawke saving her fucking life. That's why my all subsequent nonmage Hawkes never took Anders to Deep Roads. Also, she acts as if Hawke is a piece of shit stuck to her sole when they meet in Act 3 and is mighty passive-aggressive in Legacy. Carver FTW! Dorquemada (talk) 16:20, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, it was either letting her die of Darkspawn poison (which probably would have turned her into a ghoul) or let her become a Grey Warden, I can understand that she didn't want to be a Grey Warden, however given the fact that It would have saved her life, It doesn't seem that bad, heck I'm willing to bet that Wesley if had the choice would probably prefer to be a Grey Warden rather than become lunch time for the Darkspawn! --SirXblade (talk) 18:47, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Why do I find myself in a time with my face dug into my palm? Marauder 09

Oh, I can understand why she's bitter. What I find problematic is that she takes it out on Hawke. No one could have foreseen what was going to happen, and happen specifically to her (after all, there's no reason, say, Varric couldn't have been tainted instead). It was just terrible bad luck, and, considering the situation, Hawke saved her life by the only means available. And it's not like she had misgivings about going into the Deep Roads in the first place. The fact that she got tainted was not Hawke's fault. I was actually surprised that she reacted the way she did, and not Carver. But as things stand, Carver takes things in stride and makes the best of his situation. Bethany, however, just picks the wrong person to blame, and her manner of doing it consists of underhanded comments. If I had been in Hawke's shoes, I would have vastly preferred her to yell in my face instead. It's a healthier way to vent. Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this means she had hidden resentment towards her family before, but I certainly find her subsequent attitude unpleasant and unjustified, which affects my appreciation of her character. Nilfalasiel (talk) 14:50, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Unpopular character I like? Cammen in DA:O. So adorable in his lovesickness. He's every insecure teenager that ever roamed the world! But I have to confess I used an appearance mod for him to make him look less moronic... -- Marvin Arnold (talk) 13:21, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Unpopular character? I'm not gonna lie, i don't hate Ser Jory and I completely understand why he didn't want to do the joining. I was pretty mortified when Duncan killed him. --Daverwulf (Talk) 16:13, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I was horrified with Duncan when he did that too, but then I sort of saw Duncan's viewpoint as well. Grey Wardens aren't there for honour. They do what they can to get rid of big pests that plague Thedas. And besides, if he's a warrior, he should have known that one might die tomorrow, next year, or today. He was a bit like Alistair in the sense that he viewed Grey Wardens as griffon-riding warriors of glory who win every battle. His lack of pragmatism cost him his life. Daveth told him that, and Jory never got it into his head.

The death is very shocking, though. My first reaction was "WTF just happened...?! Oh hell, it's me next! Wait, why are you two backing away?!". I think his death was put in the story to show just how much Grey Wardens must sacrifice to do a job not many wants to do.

The people who wanted to become Wardens (in DAO) are Alistair, who hated Templar life so much he's still complaining about it and Daveth, who came from the gutters of Denerim. The Warden didn't have much choice. I felt awful about Jory's wife and child, though. To wait without knowing what had happened... more reason to destroy Darkspawn.--GabrielleduVent (talk) 23:05, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Daveth didn't exactly volunteer to join the wardens. He actually tried cutting Duncan's purse and was then conscripted. I think he is rather just accepting the path fate has picked out for him. I like Daveth for that. ----Isolationistmagi 03:19, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Here is my own list of unpopular chracters that i like:

Dragon age:origins Anora-despite that fact that she can be somewhat cold I get what she's trying to accomplish and where she's coming from. Annnd I'm attracted to that sort of woman smart and beautiful but a bit cold.

Morrigan-she's popular to some (mainly because of physical attractiveness) but to me its her "unique" personality that won me over. Although at first she turned me off with her wordview of things but as I eventually get to know her you realize that there is more to her. Annnd again its because of the "what is about about bad girl that makes her so attractive?" thing.

Shale-After reading DA:Asunder, she's still the same golem I used to know in origins.

Sten-Despite only saying less, his words carry alot of weight or he's just being damned literal (Can't blame him really)

Knight Commander Greagoir,Knight-Commander Harrith-both like to cooperate with mages. Gregoir mostly because his reasonable.

Roirdan-being the only two survivng grey wardens kinda felt lonely at least for the time being.

Bhelen-may not agree with his methods and his motivations but leading orzammar to better future is worth taking his side.

DAO:Awakening none honestly.

DAO:Golems of Amgarrak None.

DAO:Darkspwan Chronicles none but then again i like the ogre since I like grabbing NPCs and punching them in the gut.

DAO:Witch hunt Finn and Arianne-Bioware why can't you at least give this characters a cameo role in DAII? Come on, those two characters (wait make that 3 referring to Bann Perrin) in Leliana's song got at least some screen time in DAII why cant these two? At least put them in future DLC or something.

DAII Sebastian-he may be freaking choir boy, but his dialogue with Isabela about "Preaching seldom works.To change a person's heart, one has to lead by example." thing makes you realize there's a part of him that knows there are more effcient ways to do things. Plus, I like how he says "Muuuurder".

Meredith-after 2nd playthrough, you realize the root cause of her actions.

Arishok-I don't know exactly how popular or unpopular he is but just having conversations with the dude makes me realize fucking with him is a BAD idea.

Bethany-some people don't like her but being a elder brother in real life makes the choice of leaving her behind(in first playthrough w/o spoilers or guide/walkthorugh) during the expedition the best decision I've made in a game. Having losing Carver makes you wonder the chances of losing another family member to something or someone (then Act 2 begins and leandra dies, dammit!). Plus i connect with her more easily.

DAII Legacy Janeka-despite hiring carta after you and your family I still like her despite that fact she doesn't realize that no chance in the void that she can control Corypheus.Plus its nice to meet more Grey wardens (I've seen way too many templars).

DA Asunder Evangeline-Bioware please put out a picture of her (crosses fingers).TyraelMM3 (talk) 17:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC)